Peer Review

You're in great company, Jack. You should get your imaginary friends together with Bert's imaginary friends, and have yourself a party.
:m:

Yea, let's look.

Wrong, this fails.

To walk means to accelerate the clocks.

Accelerating clocks beat slower.


http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pd.../0411233v1.pdf

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2551753&postcount=205

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=101728&page=11

Now, you will note I closed down the thread not as a moderator but with pure logic from the mainstream.

Let me know when you can achieve this level.

I can produce more like this.

As such, your comments do not meet the high standard required.
 
Same old Jack. Still singing your same tune, still happily posting non-sequiturs to anything you don't like.
Now, you will note I closed down the thread not as a moderator but with pure logic from the mainstream.
:bravo:
Love yourself much now? I dub thee "Jack, the MotorDaddy squasher!"

MotorDaddy shut down the thread by not responding to it.
You can choose to believe that it's because of your razor sharp reasoning and ill-informed argument if you want to.
But really, you should think about that party with Bert. MotorDaddy can hang around outside, wishing he was in with the 'cool kids'. :rolleyes:
 
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It helps no one to reject good, interesting papers - let alone the journal in question. If a paper is genuinely good and well presented, then it will get published.
That's demonstrably false. This can't be true when papers are summarily dismissed at the gate for illogical reasons and without being read. By major journals no less. You believe that journals are scientific, despite evidence all over the web that this is a fantasy. It's probably true for incremental work only. Certainly if some generally accepted ideas fell then many scientists could have disruption to their careers and businesses could lose valuable contracts. Journals would have to be comprised of saints to not be influenced by that.

Tell you what: you find a major physics journal (like top 5) whose editor(s) gives an unqualified yes answer to my question above, and I'll send them a paper that meets the criteria and report back here what happened. I bet you can't find such journal (I've checked already) and if you did the paper still wouldn't be read beyond the title, with rudeness or other unscientific response to boot. The question is "Would your journal consider a refutation of GR that consists of only a thought experiment?" The question alone would anger "scientists".
 
That's demonstrably false. This can't be true when papers are summarily dismissed at the gate for illogical reasons and without being read. By major journals no less. You believe that journals are scientific, despite evidence all over the web that this is a fantasy. It's probably true for incremental work only. Certainly if some generally accepted ideas fell then many scientists could have disruption to their careers and businesses could lose valuable contracts. Journals would have to be comprised of saints to not be influenced by that.
Rubbish. I'm afraid this sounds like you've got a bee in your bonnet because the scientific community don't take you seriously. You seem to want to create some sort of psychological safety blanket that allows you to think that you have done world-changing science, but due to scientific dogma you'll never get any sort of recognition. There are many people like you who think the same.

Tell you what: you find a major physics journal (like top 5) whose editor(s) gives an unqualified yes answer to my question above, and I'll send them a paper that meets the criteria and report back here what happened. I bet you can't find such journal (I've checked already) and if you did the paper still wouldn't be read beyond the title, with rudeness or other unscientific response to boot. The question is "Would your journal consider a refutation of GR that consists of only a thought experiment?" The question alone would anger "scientists".
Why-o-why would you do this? Send them the paper - if it is a brilliant as you seem to hope it is, then this will become apparent to the editor who received it and you will provide a massive step forward for science. However, if your paper is rubbish, then you will get a nice rejection e-mail. This is what's great about peer review - you don't get to judge the merits of your work.
 
However, if your paper is rubbish, then you will get a nice rejection e-mail.
I already got a rejection when I asked them the question, as I said before. They determined it's rubbish from the subject. Of course it's sour grapes for me. :rolleyes: But thanks for helping prove my point and enjoy your fantasy.
 
My fantasy? Wow.

If you don't have enough faith in your work to submit it to the rigours of peer review, then so be it.
 
Tell you what: you find a major physics journal (like top 5) whose editor(s) gives an unqualified yes answer to my question above, and I'll send them a paper that meets the criteria and report back here what happened. I bet you can't find such journal (I've checked already) and if you did the paper still wouldn't be read beyond the title, with rudeness or other unscientific response to boot. The question is "Would your journal consider a refutation of GR that consists of only a thought experiment?" The question alone would anger "scientists".
You presume that what you have to say is both correct and of sufficient quality and the views of those of us here who know some GR and also have experience with peer review (both sides of it) consider your work to have failed on both grounds. You only need to look through ArXiv to see the level and detail expected of publishable papers and ArXiv isn't even peer reviewed, its more a fancy hosting site. Even those who are agreeing with GR and trying to develop some area of it further write considerably more detail and provide plenty more logic and rigour than you do. Any paper trying to kill GR would have to be even more detailed, rigorous, clear and justified than even those.

Your attitude towards peer review stems from your belief you're not wrong and your work is of high quality. Journals demand a very high level of detail and explanation and justification and you don't met them, even if you are right in what you're claiming. You're interpreting responses which explain this requirement not as saying "Any such paper must be of high standard" but rather "We refuse any and all such papers". You have no formal education in even the basic areas of physics required to even understand relativity and you have no attachment to any research establishment and so you have to be extra clear in your work because you have to demonstrate that you know and understand the model you're claiming is wrong. In fact this is built into the ArXiv submission process, if you are not in a research group then you must find someone who is (and who has the appropriate powers on ArXiv) to vouch for you so as to allow you to upload work. This was brought in to stem the problem of nuts who have absolutely no understanding of physics uploading their pet theories to ArXiv. When I registered I used a university email and I automatically met this requirement, ArXiv use the reasoning that if I've convinced other researchers/academics I have the required understanding and ability to be in their PhD group then I'm not a hack whose going to put his pet theory on ArXiv. I got this by demonstrating to said academics I understood a lot of physics and maths, they didn't just say "He says he knows, that's good enough for us!", I have to jump through some hoops. You're expected to do the same, to demonstrate you're not just whining about relativity because you don't understand it.

Seriously, do you think its too much to ask of you that you demonstrate you're sufficiently familiar with relativity that you can make informed comments on it?

If I were reviewing a paper claiming to kill GR I would require the author(s) demonstrate they have a great deal of familiarity with GR, so they can properly critically analyse the area they claim is wrong. I'd require them to show all workings and stating all assumptions (if any). If they are trying to kill GR only (ie not providing a replacement) I'd require they either discuss known experimental results relevant to their claims or that they propose an experiment to set their claims. I'd require them to go through the GR derivation of said result and point out the flaw in the methodology. If they propose a replacement then I'd need them to derive, step by step, their model, its predictions for a vareity of different phenomena, compare with experimental results and predictions of GR, show it doesn't suffer from the same problem as GR and then propose new experiments to further examine it.

Yes, its a lengthy list of requirements but none of them are unreasonable. You fall short on all of these requirements.
 
Same old Jack. Still singing your same tune, still happily posting non-sequiturs to anything you don't like.

:bravo:
Love yourself much now? I dub thee "Jack, the MotorDaddy squasher!"

MotorDaddy shut down the thread by not responding to it.
You can choose to believe that it's because of your razor sharp reasoning and ill-informed argument if you want to.
But really, you should think about that party with Bert. MotorDaddy can hang around outside, wishing he was in with the 'cool kids'. :rolleyes:

Oh, was something I said false?

Nope.

You are strange to attack someone that lists a valid argument.

Is this the nature of the peer review logic?
 
You presume that what you have to say is both correct and of sufficient quality and the views of those of us here who know some GR and also have experience with peer review (both sides of it) consider your work to have failed on both grounds. You only need to look through ArXiv to see the level and detail expected of publishable papers and ArXiv isn't even peer reviewed, its more a fancy hosting site. Even those who are agreeing with GR and trying to develop some area of it further write considerably more detail and provide plenty more logic and rigour than you do. Any paper trying to kill GR would have to be even more detailed, rigorous, clear and justified than even those.

Your attitude towards peer review stems from your belief you're not wrong and your work is of high quality. Journals demand a very high level of detail and explanation and justification and you don't met them, even if you are right in what you're claiming. You're interpreting responses which explain this requirement not as saying "Any such paper must be of high standard" but rather "We refuse any and all such papers". You have no formal education in even the basic areas of physics required to even understand relativity and you have no attachment to any research establishment and so you have to be extra clear in your work because you have to demonstrate that you know and understand the model you're claiming is wrong. In fact this is built into the ArXiv submission process, if you are not in a research group then you must find someone who is (and who has the appropriate powers on ArXiv) to vouch for you so as to allow you to upload work. This was brought in to stem the problem of nuts who have absolutely no understanding of physics uploading their pet theories to ArXiv. When I registered I used a university email and I automatically met this requirement, ArXiv use the reasoning that if I've convinced other researchers/academics I have the required understanding and ability to be in their PhD group then I'm not a hack whose going to put his pet theory on ArXiv. I got this by demonstrating to said academics I understood a lot of physics and maths, they didn't just say "He says he knows, that's good enough for us!", I have to jump through some hoops. You're expected to do the same, to demonstrate you're not just whining about relativity because you don't understand it.

Seriously, do you think its too much to ask of you that you demonstrate you're sufficiently familiar with relativity that you can make informed comments on it?

If I were reviewing a paper claiming to kill GR I would require the author(s) demonstrate they have a great deal of familiarity with GR, so they can properly critically analyse the area they claim is wrong. I'd require them to show all workings and stating all assumptions (if any). If they are trying to kill GR only (ie not providing a replacement) I'd require they either discuss known experimental results relevant to their claims or that they propose an experiment to set their claims. I'd require them to go through the GR derivation of said result and point out the flaw in the methodology. If they propose a replacement then I'd need them to derive, step by step, their model, its predictions for a vareity of different phenomena, compare with experimental results and predictions of GR, show it doesn't suffer from the same problem as GR and then propose new experiments to further examine it.

Yes, its a lengthy list of requirements but none of them are unreasonable. You fall short on all of these requirements.

I'd require them to go through the GR derivation of said result and point out the flaw in the methodology.

I would have to agree with you. I would not accept talk either and an "I think" argument. If the objective is to refute GR, then it must achieve its objective.
 
If I were reviewing a paper claiming to kill GR I would require the author(s) demonstrate they have a great deal of familiarity with GR, so they can properly critically analyse the area they claim is wrong.
Illogical. Par for your "science" though. This is all you get from me, since you don't really engage in discussion, ignore my questions, and repeat your points over & over in multiple threads.
 
If you don't have enough faith in your work to submit it to the rigours of peer review, then so be it.
What part of "it was already rejected based on subject" did you not understand? They've already told me not to submit such work. Yes, you believe in a fantasy.
 
Illogical.
Really? You don't think that what has become one of the two pillars of modern physics merits that one requires a thorough understanding from anyone who purports to disprove it?
Par for your "science" though.
Yeah, you're not going to win any friends by insulting their entire field.
 
What part of "it was already rejected based on subject" did you not understand? They've already told me not to submit such work. Yes, you believe in a fantasy.
Looks to me you trying to find excuses not to put your work up for peer review - I mentioned the psychological safety blanket earlier.

But hey, if you're happy to remain another guy on an internet forum who claims to have made massive leaps in science, but wont put this work up for peer review, then so be it.
 
You know, what I find really annoying about crackpots is not their stupid theories - these I don't usually read, and if I do, don't have the patience of some saints here who try to show where they are wrong.

No. What annoys me most is that they pollute other, unrelated, threads with their crackpottery. So for example, this thread was intended to be about the peer review process, and not, repeat NOT about Jacks crazy (non) ideas or Berts paranoia.

Let me repeat. The peer review process as I described it is not perfect, and is, at least potentially, open to abuse. I have never experienced this (I should be interested to hear of any non-paranoid here has), and it is, rather like democracy, better than all ther conceivable alternatives.

Those of us here who live or die, professionally speaking, by this process seem quite happy with it, so why should "amateurs" not be?

Beats the socks off me.

But then..... that's what you get when you post in Pseudo, I guess.
 
You don't think that what has become one of the two pillars of modern physics merits that one requires a thorough understanding from anyone who purports to disprove it?
Of course not. Showing a valid problem with the theory is all that's required. Can you refute that? Of course you can't.

Yeah, you're not going to win any friends by insulting their entire field.
I'm insulting his/her science, not the entire field. Alpha is routinely illogical and not scientific.
 
Looks to me you trying to find excuses not to put your work up for peer review - I mentioned the psychological safety blanket earlier.
If I'm told in advance the work isn't wanted and won't be considered, I'd be foolish to bother submitting it. That's perfectly reasonable. Your position is unreasonable. Mine is a repeatable experiment, yours is not. But like I said, of course it's sour grapes on my part. That's how the system proves anyone is a crackpot regardless of the content of their work. Then they can keep getting that grant money from taxpayers for their superfluous activities.
 
Let me repeat. The peer review process as I described it is not perfect, and is, at least potentially, open to abuse. I have never experienced this (I should be interested to hear of any non-paranoid here has), and it is, rather like democracy, better than all ther conceivable alternatives.
Sorry, you've shown that your really not interested in learning about abuse. I've given a repeatable experiment that you call paranoia. Peer review is easily worse than alternatives, like those suggested above, including suggestions in links I gave. You have faith that it's the best possible solution, that's all; you've shown that you're not really open to learning anything new. If you want to discuss instead of just repeat your faith, pick one of the alternatives and give your thoughts about it.

Those of us here who live or die, professionally speaking, by this process seem quite happy with it, so why should "amateurs" not be?

Beats the socks off me.
Many people in the industry are not happy with it, as the links above show.

But then..... that's what you get when you post in Pseudo, I guess.
Really scientific there. Just put down anyone who disagrees with you. You're the professional so we should just bow down to you, huh?
 
Illogical. Par for your "science" though. This is all you get from me, since you don't really engage in discussion, ignore my questions, and repeat your points over & over in multiple threads.
I have to repeat myself because you don't seem to be getting the point.

If someone were purporting to have found an algebraic demonstration which showed GR basically said 2=1 then they need only produce that demonstration. You're not, you're giving an extremely wordy argument and thus its important you demonstrate you have a good grasp of the relevant concepts as well as being mathematically capable. For instance, you claim to have solved a number of issues in cosmology which GR supposedly has. As such its entirely reasonable for anyone to ask you to clearly explain the relevant area of GR, explain your work's take on it, compare predictions and then discuss the implications.

Yes, the validity of a claim is not based on how much or how little someone wants to explain it but to be asked to explain it is not unreasonable.

I'm insulting his/her science, not the entire field. Alpha is routinely illogical and not scientific.
Firstly I'm a 'he'. And secondly you haven't demonstrated that, you've demonstrate your illogical nature and unwillingness to be scientific. I've explained the criteria I'd expect of someone making big claims and it basically boils down to "They should possess relevant knowledge, explain in detail their methodology, compare new ideas with the old ones and demonstrate their new work is experimentally viable.". What precisely about this is not scientific? Do you think its unscientific that you be asked to explain yourself a little more? Do you think its unscientific is someone says "I don't quite see how you got from X to Y, can you elaborate?". Publishable papers are more than just a list of results, they include the derivation of the results, the explanation of the author's methods, a discussion of the work's place within the larger area of research and an honest evaluation of any assumptions made or suggested results which need further justification. Even if I were to agree with your claims I'd still reject your work for publication on the grounds of poor explanations, unexplained or even acknowledged assumptions, lack of justification for certain said assumptions and failure to provide quantitative details. Work can be right but if the presentation is poor it'll be rejected or at least asked to be rewritten and then resubmitted. I've had both things happen to me; one paper needed to have a section reworded due to lack of explanation and another paper required an entire justification for a particular result to be added, despite the reviewer saying "I agree with the result but you must explain how you got it".

The larger the claim being made the more detail, explanation, justification, workings and discussion must be given by the author. You are making a huge claim and even if you weren't wrong you fail to meet the literary standards expected of journals.

And I'm wondering if you're just desperate or just stupid for calling me unscientific and illogical. You started this thread claiming your work came to you in a dream! How much more illogical can you get?!

If I'm told in advance the work isn't wanted and won't be considered, I'd be foolish to bother submitting it.
Your work isn't wanted but that's not synonymous with what you claim it means, that any work which challenges GR will not be considered. I suggest you read my last post since despite you complaining I've told you such things before you still don't seem to be getting it. You're arguing with at least 2 people who have both reviewed for journals and who have been reviewed by journals on a subject area both of them have a lot of experience and knowledge of and you're calling me illogical?!

Then they can keep getting that grant money from taxpayers for their superfluous activities.
Ah yes, the "They are only in it for the money" conspiracy theory of the desperate hack. If you weren't so ignorant of the history of physics you'd know that research activity and money increases immediately after a paradigm is destroyed because everyone scrambles to understand how and why it failed and to then come up with a replacement. If you think physicists are just egotistical money grabbers then they'd want GR to be killed because one (or more) of them might then end up being the next Einstein. Standard textbooks don't make their authors much money but if you've just destroyed and rebuilt our understanding of gravity then you'd make a lot of money writing books on it, mostly pop science ones. Besides, academic salaries are nothing to write home about, someone who knows say financial stochastic mathematics can earn tens, hundreds even thousands of times more money going into investment banking. Similarly, other areas of maths and physics are in high demand in industry and pay more.

You don't go into academia for the money but for the intellectual stimulation and challenges and the opportunities to teach others. Just this week someone I work with decided to leave his job and apply for research positions. He's risking not getting a position and finding himself unemployed in 6 months at a time when jobs are hard to find. If he does get it he'll get a large pay cut compared to at present and like all other researchers who aren't academics he'll have to reapply for positions every 3 or so years till he's got a permanent position somewhere. Which could be 10~12 years away. And why is he throwing away job security and a large chunk of salary? Because he loves the research and wants to teach people to enjoy physics as much as he does.

You hacks have some naive notion that the jobs of researchers depends on their work never being refuted and hence their unwillingness to accept such work. That is utter bullshit. We know pretty much all physics from before 1900 is wrong on some level or other but we don't think of Newton as useless or Maxwell as a failure. When the 1919 eclipse demonstrated GR superior to Newtonian gravity the physics departments of the world weren't flushed clean and all physicists stripped of their titles, jobs and accomplishments. No, they changed their work to investigate this new and brilliant model and its achievements.

You're coming up with pathetic excuses to try and convince yourself why you've failed utterly to achieve anything in physics and you're idiotic enough to try to tell researchers the nature of their job and the world they work in, a world you have no experience of.
 
You're the professional so we should just bow down to you, huh?
No, bowing is not necessary. But what IS necessary is that you acknowledge there are people here who have put in time and effort (in my case 7 years with virtually no income) in order to be able to speak authoritatively on the subject at hand; namely peer review.
 
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