Original Sin- Justice or Injustice?

[786]

Let me ask you this. I've read that there's a tradition in Islam similar to the Zoroastrian one in which one needs to cross a bridge to attain heaven. Are you saying that people will be punished for their sins at that time and then they'll get to heaven?

I really don't know the answer for this question, maybe someone else will be of some help.

Is it the consistent Muslim position that non Muslims can attain heaven? Sure, God forgives whoever he wills, but does he will to forgive non-Muslims?

No. Because there are many requirements for one to attain heaven.

I see a lot of hell fire threatening for non Muslims in the Qur'an for me to think that non-Muslims can attain heaven. There are a couple verses which acts like Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sabeans, whoever believe in God and the last day, will have nothing to fear, but there are a lot of verses which make it sound like only Muslims can attain heaven, and don't Muslims consider that if one believes that Jesus is God when one dies, that it's an unforgivable sin?

Yes, it is an unforgiveable sin. So they will have to pay for this sin. I have said before that God forgives sins, but for this he will not forgive. So in other words you will have to pay for this sin. That doesn't mean eternity in hell.

If so, how can Christians attain heaven, unless they are actually Unitarians, or Jehovah's Witnesses for instance, who don't believe Jesus was God?

See above.

What is the dominant position in Islam? I thought the dominant position was that non-Muslims are going to hell.

First of all we must establish the meaning of a "Muslim". Muslim is whomever submit his will to the will of the only true God. To know the will of God you must read the Quran. If you follow the teachings of the Quran then you will Inshallah enter heaven.

There maybe a way that a non-Muslims enter heaven, but I don't know it. I would think that this question should be posed to a scholar of Islam.

Peace be unto you

 

[path]

Yes, it is an unforgiveable sin. So they will have to pay for this sin. I have said before that God forgives sins, but for this he will not forgive. So in other words you will have to pay for this sin. That doesn't mean eternity in hell.

See above.

First of all we must establish the meaning of a "Muslim". Muslim is whomever submit his will to the will of the only true God. To know the will of God you must read the Quran. If you follow the teachings of the Quran then you will Inshallah enter heaven.

There maybe a way that a non-Muslims enter heaven, but I don't know it. I would think that this question should be posed to a scholar of Islam.

Peace be unto you

So unless you convert to islam regardless of how good a person you are god is going to roast you in the flames of hell for all eternity.
Did you have a point here??
How is this any more just than christianity?

 

[786]

So unless you convert to islam regardless of how good a person you are god is going to roast you in the flames of hell for all eternity.
Did you have a point here??
How is this any more just than christianity?

YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
[Quran 5:69

If you fit in the above criterea then I guess you will enter heaven. But the thing is that it is the requirement to "enter" heaven. There are many levels of heaven. And inorder to recieve those levels you must do more than this. So it is your choice. Do you want the best for yourself or the least?

Today Muslims do more than this if you ever noticed. We pray 5 times a day, and we do many other things. So basically now days we are trying to get the best that we can.

The point is that Quran is a guideance for you to live a righteous life. Living a righteous life is one thing in the critarea in the above verse. It is your choice to take the guideance or leave it. If you ever read the Quran, you will notice that it shows you how to live a righteous life. But if you think you don't think you need it, then that is your choice. I personally would not take a chance.

And in one of your posts you said that Christians cannot be murderers because one of the commandments is "thou shalt not kill". First of all you should know that the Christians believe that the Commandments to not bound to them. At least, thats what they say.

Peace be unto you

 

[duendy]

but i dont believe your belief, so why should i care. i see you as wallowing in piety, what with all the praying praying. but i suppose you are free to do it. but you see yu dont stop there do you. you create this belief that if 'we' dont then we are going to go to your 'hell'. the christians tried this scam too, but presently -in the West at least-it isn't seen as cool or politically correct to harp on about fire and damnation like they have been infamous for in the past

i suppose you dont think yourself an extremist do you. yet it is the beliefs you cling to that grow all of that. the very dream of the suicide bomber is that their 'reward' will be a Islamic-myth-inspired 'heaven', being served by...70 virgins is it?

 

[path]

YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
[Quran 5:69

If you fit in the above criterea then I guess you will enter heaven. But the thing is that it is the requirement to "enter" heaven. There are many levels of heaven. And inorder to recieve those levels you must do more than this. So it is your choice. Do you want the best for yourself or the least?

Today Muslims do more than this if you ever noticed. We pray 5 times a day, and we do many other things. So basically now days we are trying to get the best that we can.

Peace be unto you

Try this on for size, or had you not gotten this far yet?

005.072
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

and how about this.

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

 

[anonymous2]

Try this on for size, or had you not gotten this far yet?

005.072
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

and how about this.

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

That's about how I see it, although I am definitely no expert on the Qur'an. I see like 2 verses which say general monotheists who believe in the last day have nothing to fear, but there's a whole lot of threatening hellfire to non-Muslims in other verses.

To me, in that sense, it's kind of like the Bible. People may find a couple verses that might support Universalist beliefs, that everyone will get into heaven. But is that the general tenor of the Bible?

 

[786]

Try this on for size, or had you not gotten this far yet?

005.072
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

and how about this.

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

First of all you must understand the religion of Islam. The religion of Islam means "submission". So if you submit your will to God then you are automatically a Muslim.

Now to considering Christ as God. There is NOT a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself says he is God. As in the verse I had provided (with the criterea), it says Allah. A triune God is not Allah. So the Christians do not meet the criterea.

Peace be unto you

 

[path]

That's about how I see it, although I am definitely no expert on the Qur'an. There are like 2 verses which say general monotheists who believe in the last day have nothing to fear, but there's a whole lot of threatening hellfire to non-Muslims in other verses.

To me, it's kind of like the Bible. People may find a couple verses that might support Universalist beliefs, that everyone will get into heaven. But is that the general tenor of the Bible?

Try this, go here and do a search on the word Doom then try Hell then try Fire Now try Love

 

[786]

I must go to school now. Will talk later.

Peace be unto you

 

[path]

First of all you must understand the religion of Islam. The religion of Islam means "submission". So if you submit your will to God then you are automatically a Muslim.

Now to considering Christ as God. There is NOT a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself says he is God. As in the verse I had provided (with the criterea), it says Allah. A triune God is not Allah. So the Christians do not meet the criterea.

Peace be unto you

Right so since they don't believe the same as muslims they are going to hell for all eternity regardless of how good or evil they may be
And this is more just than the christian idea that those who aren't good people and accept christ are going to hell how?

 

[anonymous2]

Right so since they don't believe the same as muslims they are going to hell for all eternity regardless of how good or evil they may be
And this is more just than the christian idea that those who aren't good people and accept christ are going to hell how?

The difference is: "We Muslims are right, while those Christians are wrong"?

 

[anonymous2]

Now to considering Christ as God. There is NOT a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself says he is God. As in the verse I had provided (with the criterea), it says Allah. A triune God is not Allah. So the Christians do not meet the criterea.

Peace be unto you

Well, a Christian could say that although Jesus did not directly say "I am God, worship me", he implied it. "All that belongs to the Father is mine." John 16:15a. If Jesus were not God, how could he have everything that God has? Also if you read the New Testament, even his Messiahship is kept a secret until the latter part of his "ministry", apparently. When Peter said Jesus was the Messiah, Jesus told his disciples to keep quiet about it.

Besides, to a Christian, it doesn't matter, since they believe other parts of the New Testament. And they can figure, that they'd rather believe Jesus' disciples, than someone hundreds of years removed from the time.

 

[path]

First of all you must understand the religion of Islam. The religion of Islam means "submission". So if you submit your will to God then you are automatically a Muslim.

Now to considering Christ as God. There is NOT a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself says he is God. As in the verse I had provided (with the criterea), it says Allah. A triune God is not Allah. So the Christians do not meet the criterea.

Peace be unto you

Who are the disblievers? Why don't you ask a christian or a jew if they believe in muhammed and his message (obviously if they did they would be muslims)

002.024
YUSUFALI: But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.
SHAKIR: But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers

002.039
YUSUFALI: "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."
PICKTHAL: But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.
SHAKIR: And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

002.085
YUSUFALI: After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
PICKTHAL: Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression? - and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you - Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
SHAKIR: Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them-- while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

002.090
YUSUFALI: Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: Evil is that for which they sell their souls: that they should disbelieve in that which Allah hath revealed, grudging that Allah should reveal of His bounty unto whom He will of His slaves. They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom.
SHAKIR: Evil is that for which they have sold their souls-- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.

047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.
SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish

047.033
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and render not your actions vain.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not make your deeds of no effect.

 

[DoctorNO]

A triune God is not Allah.

Why, are you god's family doctor to know the details of his psyches & bios?

 

[786]

Why, are you god's family doctor to know the details of his psyches & bios?

In the Quran it expilictly states that Jesus is not God.

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Jesus Christ the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, And His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not ‘Trinity’: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
[Al-Qur’an 4:171]

Peace be upon you

 

[786]

Well, a Christian could say that although Jesus did not directly say "I am God, worship me", he implied it. "All that belongs to the Father is mine." John 16:15a. If Jesus were not God, how could he have everything that God has? Also if you read the New Testament, even his Messiahship is kept a secret until the latter part of his "ministry", apparently. When Peter said Jesus was the Messiah, Jesus told his disciples to keep quiet about it.

Besides, to a Christian, it doesn't matter, since they believe other parts of the New Testament. And they can figure, that they'd rather believe Jesus' disciples, than someone hundreds of years removed from the time.

Jesus should've said that he is God, since this indeed is the Central belief.

Peace be upon you

 

[786]

Try this, go here and do a search on the word Doom then try Hell then try Fire Now try Love

You really don't see the love?

God sent messengers to the people.
He sent the Quran for your guidence.
He tells you some things about Hell and Judgement Day, so you be good.

Let me give you an analogy, hopefully it can help.

In our Emerson School we had a program called D.A.R.E I think it stands for Drug Abuse Resistance Education. They taught us the bad things about Drugs, they were literally scaring us, not to use Drugs. They brought real hearts and lungs to show us the effects of smoking.

By the end I was convinced not to use Drugs.

They did this because they love us. They don't want us to use Drugs. But they were actually scaring us.

Same with the Quran. God loves us, that is why he is showing us what to do and what not to do, and also the consequences. Quran talks about Judgement Day and Hell so you try to stay away from it by not doing wrong things.

Peace be upon you

 

[path]

If allahs message was so good and so powerful he would have no need to even mention hell he could simply reveal his message and the glory of it alone would draw everyone to the faith. No need for threatening no need for jihad or fighting with the unbelievers because they would be awestruck by the wonder of the message alone it would be sufficient, but alas it is not.

Look check out a snippet from a discussion I was having with one of the moderators over at Bismika Allahuma. He was inviting non-believers to join islam and save themselves from an eternity in hellfire

-

path wrote:
Is this really the best you can do zed? tsk tsk tsk Your problem is that you are showing that all islam has to work with is fear and it just doesn't work on those without the same fear instilled in them that you have. To me it is like watching one kid tell another "give me your milk money or the bogeyman will get you"

Then let's see you do better. Go ahead. Now it's your turn. Let's see you do better or even REMOTELY CLOSE TO THIS if you speak the truth.

My problem is NOT that i am showing you fear. YOUR problem is that you have never imagined or seen the Hell Fire and have no faith in it. Therefore you dance around in this world.. yes.. dance around while you can.. soon will you be brought in front of the Fire, where you will be punished so greivously that you will no doubt have fear and pain.

It is YOUR PROBLEM that you do not believe. But when the time comes, then you will have to believe. This is the problem. I don't have a problem. I fear the hell fire and that's why I believe.

Unbelievers do have fear for the hell fire in this world, until they will actually stand in front of it.

you wait, and I wait with you.

To you it sounds like watching one kid tell another "give me your milk money or the bogeyman will get you" because you have such low level mentality and no awareness of your own being. You take life for granted as if God loved you so much that he gave you life. God also created men to burn in the hell fire so that His words "I will burn men in hell fire" will be fulfilled. God is All Powerful and able to do everything.

Then I try to point out to him that being threatened into belief isn't a good basis for faith

Quote:

My non belief is not a problem for me you are the one feeling the need to convert here not me. You believe BECAUSE of fear you just said it yourself, that is a pretty poor reason to believe in my opinion, the lowest reason in fact (maybe you need to rethink that phrase). In otherwords the main message of the quran as you have described it is FEAR.

Of course yor non-belief is not a problem to you, otherwise, you would have been a believer. And yes I am the one with the feeling to convert you, since I am more compassionate than you, since I wish to save yu from the fire. Are my intentions wrong? Yes, I believe BECAUSE of the fear (although that's not the only reason, but yes a big reason). You say it is a poor argument and yet you haven't provided a single little argument against this belief.

You can't deduce from this that the ONLY (or main) message of the Holy Qur'an is that we should believe because of the fear, although yes, I would say it is one of the reasons. The other message is that the Believers will have Gardens of delight.

Obviously not only I feel that the main weight of allahs message is do as I say or I will BarBQ you for all eternity. And see second reason after fear for believing is gardens of delight

 

[duendy]

((786))) seeing you totally avoided my question, i really don't see much point hangin round this thread. like talkin to someone who looks the other way. wate of my time and effort

but will say this. Yes Islam actually means 'submission'. you will to the will of 'God/Allah', right? so that means you hae given up your own uniqueness. now you are just an automaton follower like the rest, with no thought or imagination of your own. no authenticity. so how can you explore in that state? all your thoughts are down in a book which has ben doin the rounds since godknowswhen

your courage would be--in my opinion--to step out of all that. to NOT submit to ANY author-ity, but find out for yourself as the living breathing human you are

 

[anonymous2]

Look check out a snippet from a discussion I was having with one of the moderators over at Bismika Allahuma. He was inviting non-believers to join islam and save themselves from an eternity in hellfire

-

Then I try to point out to him that being threatened into belief isn't a good basis for faith



Obviously not only I feel that the main weight of allahs message is do as I say or I will BarBQ you for all eternity. And see second reason after fear for believing is gardens of delight

The author(s) of the Qur'an did a nice job with the hellfire threatening. In my opinion, its description is worse and more often than in the Bible. Is it any wonder that the two major religions in the world are ones which believe in an eternal heaven and an eternal hell? Nice psychological manipulation perhaps.