Original Sin- Justice or Injustice?

[786]

Hey guys,

The Christian have concept of "Original Sin". Although some people do not believe in this, but most do. So let me give you some background on this concept.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

The above link has some good information. Read it if you like.

Basically you can sum it up by saying that Adam sinned. Now his sin is hereditary. We are all born with this stain, sin.

Now is this Justice or Injustice? Why are we born with sin, even though we didn't commit it?

Adam didn't ask us to eat the forbidden fruit, then why are we all held accountable for this sin, even though we had no part in it?

To me this is injustice. I would like your point of views.

Peace be unto you

 

[duendy]

HI.........first i recommend you type this at google "From Orphism to Gnosticism"...it's a fascinating read

the concept of original sin really came from Orphism. the idea that mankind was mean up from the 'baddies'/'Titans'/Earth and the 'goody' "Dionysos"/"pure spirit/Heaven. and that our aim then was to 'purify' ourselves

now, i also recommend that in exploring this you are open to seeing pattern between paradigms, myths etc. for example, in the Judaic-Christian creation myth of the Garden of Eden, on can summarize it thus:
the patriarchas who plagarized the tale from earlier mythologies attmptedt to subvert powerful imagery--of the Garden, Serpent, Tree, Fruit, Woman/Goddess, and Lover/Adam

what is being warned about by the patriarcahl mythic MALE writers of that text is this, simple: do NOT eat hallucinogenic fruits, and interelate with Nature--which includes ecstatic sexuality, and Imagination (as did the pagan peoples from VERY ancinet times). no, now they wrote. you 'MUST' obey the 'one and only male God-'yahweh'.
as you know, in the story they didn't obey. of cause woman gets blamed, thus denigrating the Goddess, and both have 'disobeyed'. this nasty tale of enofrced subservience to a male authority/'God' was elaborated on by Augustine into the ' Doctrine of Original Sin'......it is an authoritarian ploy of divide and control. to make you di-trust your very being, and thus give full allegiance to the church-machine....

 

[786]

Thanks for your post. It is very enlighting, to how this doctrine is related to other things. From your post, I think that you believe it is unjust, correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyways thanks for the reply.

Anyone else has anything to say about this unjust "doctrine".

Peace be unto you

 

[Q25]

The Christian have concept of "Original Sin". Although some people do not believe in this, but most do. So let me give you some background on this concept.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

The above link has some good information. Read it if you like.

Basically you can sum it up by saying that Adam sinned. Now his sin is hereditary. We are all born with this stain, sin.

Now is this Justice or Injustice? Why are we born with sin, even though we didn't commit it?

Adam didn't ask us to eat the forbidden fruit, then why are we all held accountable for this sin, even though we had no part in it?

To me this is injustice.

its just a fairy tale story,that never happened.
it was invented by the xian church so they can sell you salvation thru Jebus and take your $$ in the process.
Adam & Eve story is a lie b/c
human race couldnt have descended from only two people!

 

[§outh§tar]

Yup! I read this analogy once:

Sin, Christianity and Jesus is like someone punching you right in the eye and then selling you an icepack to get rid of the pain.

Imagine in 3rd grade you had a friend who moved to Italy. Now 20 years later, this friend of yours shot the Pope. 55 years after the event, you hear a knock at your door. It's the police and they say, "We have come to arrest you for your friend's murder of the pope 55 years ago". But you are confused, "I'm not the one who shot the Pope, and I don't even spoken to my friend in a long time." The police say, "Well, too bad. He's your friend, isn't he? That makes you just as guilty as he is. Come with us!"


You can of course see how this smells of injustice.

 

[one_raven]

It goes beyond whether or not it is unjust to the decendents of Adam and Eve.
It was entirely unjust to them from the onset.

God told Adam and Even to not eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Before they did theis, they, obviously, had no knowledge OF "Good and Evil".
There is no way they could have known what they were doing "wrong", or that they were anything "wrong" at all.
(it is important to note that the only reason this was "wrong" in God's eyes was because it gave them knowledge of "Good and Evil" and allowed them to make their own decisions)

How could he have punished them for doing something "wrong" if they had no concept of sin at all?
(there is a big debate about this here somewhere if you want to take the time to search)

That would be akin to incarcerating an infant for life for taking a cookie, when the infant has no concept yet of what is right and wrong...
THEN incarcerating every decendant of thet infant for all time to come.

Fair and Just?
It's not even a question as far as I'm concerned.

 

[one_raven]

Found it!

 

[pavlosmarcos]

and this one, one raven:http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38023 and this http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=37650
there has been many, on the same subject.

 

[mustafhakofi]

most definately injustice, as one raven says it's not a question.

 

[s t e p h]

id agree

 

[786]

Well so far I can conclude, by the people's view, that this doctrine is unjust.

So is Christianity injust, since this is part of Christianity?

Peace be unto you

 

[robtex]

786 you make an excellent two points but I see most people only commenting on one so I am going to comment on the other. The other being that as Jesus died for their sins if they accept him they will go to heaven and be forgiven for their sins while the rest of the non believers die an eternal agonizing death in hell.

In the meantime since Jesus paid for the meal looks like that can act like hellions on earth as long as they make sure to fess up and acknowledge Jesus is their savior before they pass away.

Ever other religion or spirtual way I can think of puts a great emphasis on virtuous living as a way to enter their religions paradise except Christanity which instead, though Christ sacrifice does not hold any of its followers accountalbe for their day-to-day morality while on earth as long as they remember to accept Jesus and ask for forgivness.

 

[786]

Thanks robtex. That is a good answer.

It is also a part of Christianity which is so injust.

1 person could be an extremely good person, but not a Christian. He will still burn in hell, because he doesn't believe in Jesus's divinity.

But 1 Christian can be as evil as possible and still enter heaven because he believes in Jesus.

This again is injustice.

Peace be upon you

 

[anonymous2]

Thanks robtex. That is a good answer.

It is also a part of Christianity which is so injust.

1 person could be an extremely good person, but not a Christian. He will still burn in hell, because he doesn't believe in Jesus's divinity.

But 1 Christian can be as evil as possible and still enter heaven because he believes in Jesus.

This again is injustice.

Peace be upon you

I agree, it's unjust. But can you explain to me how Islam is just? One could be an extremely good person, but not a Muslim, but would he go to heaven or hell? Isn't it the Muslim position that Christians commit shirk, an unforgivable sin? So the best Christian in the world, is he going to heaven or hell? What about the best Jew? Hindu? Buddhist? Agnostic? Atheist?

 

[philocrazy]

786:
Well so far I can conclude, by the people's view, that this doctrine is unjust.
---------------------------------------------------------
how do you know to be so
what else have you tried,that is better in world scale
im not saying justice is you either

here you merely express opinions ReALITY my HUMBLE friend is REALITY

Philosopher Philocrazy

 

[786]

I agree, it's unjust. But can you explain to me how Islam is just? One could be an extremely good person, but not a Muslim, but would he go to heaven or hell? Isn't it the Muslim position that Christians commit shirk, an unforgivable sin? So the best Christian in the world, is he going to heaven or hell? What about the best Jew? Hindu? Buddhist? Agnostic? Atheist?

You have taken my post in the wrong way. I was just trying to say that Christians can be murderers or whatever, and they will not burn in hell, because they believe in Jesus.

In Islam even Muslims are to pay for the sins they comitt. So Muslims cannot be murderers or anything like that. Muslims can ask the forgiveness of God, and hope that he will forgive.

So let me sum it up like this.
Christians can be murderers, sinners, still go to heaven without any payment.
The unjust part is that everyone must pay for his or her sins if not a Christian. This is bias.

Muslims must pay for the sins, unless God forgives. In Islam everyone pays for his or her sins unless God forgives. Islam is not bias in this case.

I wasn't talking about people entering heaven or hell. I was talking about who will pay for the sins. In Christianity everyone will pay for their sins, in hell, except Christians.

In Islam EVERYONE will pay.

Now you tell me which one is unjust?

Peace be upon you

 

[anonymous2]

You have taken my post in the wrong way. I was just trying to say that Christians can be murderers or whatever, and they will not burn in hell, because they believe in Jesus.

In Islam even Muslims are to pay for the sins they comitt. So Muslims cannot be murderers or anything like that. Muslims can ask the forgiveness of God, and hope that he will forgive.

So let me sum it up like this.
Christians can be murderers, sinners, still go to heaven without any payment.
The unjust part is that everyone must pay for his or her sins if not a Christian. This is bias.

Muslims must pay for the sins, unless God forgives. In Islam everyone pays for his or her sins unless God forgives. Islam is not bias in this case.

This depends on what Christians you talk to. Some believe in "eternal security", while some don't. Although the Bible says sins of Christians are forgiven, it doesn't say that because of this one gets a blank check to do whatever he wants. If you practice sin, you probably aren't a real Christian (or so the thought goes). Read this verse if you want:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

People can take the belief in Jesus as savior as meaning they can then do whatever they want, but I don't see the Bible arguing that.

Read these verses if you want:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I wasn't talking about people entering heaven or hell. I was talking about who will pay for the sins. In Christianity everyone will pay for their sins, in hell, except Christians.

In Islam EVERYONE will pay.

Now you tell me which one is unjust?

Peace be upon you

In Islam, everyone will pay for their sins, in hell, except Muslims. Am I right? Only Muslims are forgiven? Just like to Christians, only Christians are forgiven. They base it on Jesus, while you base it on following Allah.

 

[786]

In Islam, everyone will pay for their sins, in hell, except Muslims. Am I right?

Wrong. EVERYONE will pay for their sins, even Muslims.

Only Muslims are forgiven? Just like to Christians, only Christians are forgiven. They base it on Jesus, while you base it on following Allah.

Wrong again. God's forgiveness is not limited to Muslims. God forgives WHOEVER HE WILLS. He might even forgive you.

Peace be unto you

 

[anonymous2]

Wrong. EVERYONE will pay for their sins, even Muslims.

Let me ask you this. I've read that there's a tradition in Islam similar to the Zoroastrian one in which one needs to cross a bridge to attain heaven. Are you saying that people will be punished for their sins at that time and then they'll get to heaven?

Wrong again. God's forgiveness is not limited to Muslims. God forgives WHOEVER HE WILLS. He might even forgive you.

Peace be unto you

Is it the consistent Muslim position that non Muslims can attain heaven? Sure, God forgives whoever he wills, but does he will to forgive non-Muslims?

I see a lot of hell fire threatening for non Muslims in the Qur'an for me to think that non-Muslims can attain heaven. There are a couple verses which acts like Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sabeans, whoever believe in God and the last day, will have nothing to fear, but there are a lot of verses which make it sound like only Muslims can attain heaven, and don't Muslims consider that if one believes that Jesus is God when one dies, that it's an unforgivable sin? If so, how can Christians attain heaven, unless they are actually Unitarians, or Jehovah's Witnesses for instance, who don't believe Jesus was God?

What is the dominant position in Islam? I thought the dominant position was that non-Muslims are going to hell.

 

[path]

I am not christian but I did have 11 years of catholic schooling

You have taken my post in the wrong way. I was just trying to say that Christians can be murderers or whatever, and they will not burn in hell, because they believe in Jesus.

No you can't murder someone then say I believe in jesus and be forgiven "thou shalt not kill" is one of the ten commandments. Jesus only makes it possible for christians to go to heaven it isn't guaranteed. Your actions plus your belief in jesus can save you not just one of them. Another part of christian doctrine that differs from islam is "love your enemy" "turn the other cheek" In islam you fight your enemy

In Islam even Muslims are to pay for the sins they comitt. So Muslims cannot be murderers or anything like that. Muslims can ask the forgiveness of God, and hope that he will forgive.

Quran and hadith do actually list times when you can murder someone and not be damned don't they.

So let me sum it up like this.
Christians can be murderers, sinners, still go to heaven without any payment.
The unjust part is that everyone must pay for his or her sins if not a Christian. This is bias.

Wrong if you are a murderer and a sinner and you sincerely repent then you might mave a chance to be forgiven just like this

Muslims can ask the forgiveness of God, and hope that he will forgive

see same concept in christianity.

Muslims must pay for the sins, unless God forgives. In Islam everyone pays for his or her sins unless God forgives. Islam is not bias in this case.

Christianity is the same

I wasn't talking about people entering heaven or hell. I was talking about who will pay for the sins. In Christianity everyone will pay for their sins, in hell, except Christians.

Wrong see above

In Islam EVERYONE will pay.
Now you tell me which one is unjust?

The quran is obsessed with hell for non-believers everyone who doesn't believe in allah and his messenger is going to hell in the quran, sorry you can't claim islam is any more just than christianity they are both corrupt belief systems that condemn any who don't fall in line regardless of how good a person they are.