Opinion and Several Questions from a Non-Believer

[IchBin]

As a person having an objective view on things, being fortunate enough to have been raised in a family and an environment encouraging free thought, I'd like to write down my opinion about religion.

Once, thousands of years ago, it was the dawn of civilization. Humans were primitive and behaved accordingly. There was no police, no jails, nobody could stop a man from raping a physically weaker woman or murdering another man. There was also the human curiosity, which made people ponder here and there - what is this circle of light shining in the sky? Who made the trees around us? what happens when we die? Death, specifically, was a really puzzling thing. A creature, be it a human or an animal, is interacting with the world around it when suddenly it just stops moving and responding, bloats up, starts to stink and turns into a pile of bones. What is that? Where did that living creature go? Could that happen to me too? But I have this feeling of presence and it's unimaginable that one day this feeling, the self awareness I'm experiencing right now will just vanish. It must go somewhere.
And while humans are desperately searching for an explanation to these problems, one genius man comes up with a brilliant solution to all of them. He gathers the tribe and proclaims the solution to all of the world's problems:

- The world around us was created by superior beings (where do we come from?).
- Besides creating the world, the superior beings also control everything around us (why does everything behave as it does? The concept of fate).
- When you die, there is an afterlife (what is death? Where does my self awareness go after I die?)
- If you do "bad things" when you're alive, the superior beings punish you in the afterlife. If you do "good things", they reward you (police substitute).
- A list of "bad things" and "good things".
- The superior beings revealed themselves to me last night and told me to pass the word to the tribe ("why should we believe you?").

The people of the tribe listened to that and with their herd-like behavior, still present to this day - the need for a leader and with the itching curiosity, it made perfect sense. They called this man a "prophet" and started a tradition, going on to this day. This happened in many tribes around the globe sooner or later. Religion was born. Throughout the years religion has evolved, just like any other constantly maintained creation of man. New deities were added, concepts like divine reward and punishment were revised to have better effect, the list of "bad things" and "good things" was changed here and there, to suit the needs of leaders, the religions of the world had become amazingly complex. Very soon after its' creation, religion started to take a toll on human lives. Deities were so real in human hearts and minds that they started to sacrifice animals and other humans to "thank" the deities - the fruit of imagination of that one man in their tribe who died a long time ago and left this legacy. Very soon people started killing each other for different interpretations of religious stories. Religion started to do the opposite of what it was supposed to do - to maintain law and order. Religion has since become a quicksand, sucking in lives of people that were unfortunate enough to have been born in conservative religious families that discourage free thought.

I have always been puzzled about how people are so blind about all this. I'm very interested in reading answers from religious people to some questions I have.
I ask only one thing - please don't quote the bible. That is not convincing. Please give a logical explanation.

So first question,
There are many religions. Lets take, for example, the Muslims and the Aztecs, though I could take any other two. There are Muslim extremists who are willing to die for Islam. Their belief is so strong that they're willing to die to defend their monotheistic religion. The Aztec's religion, on the other hand, was a polytheistic religion, but they too believed in it so strongly, that they made human sacrifices to "satisfy their gods". Why, then, are the Muslims "correct" about there being one God and not the Aztecs, about there being many gods? If I'd ask an Aztec tricky questions about his religion, he would answer every one of them just as well as a Muslim would, and it would have the same amount of logic to it. Why, then, should I believe the Muslim and not the Aztec and why should they believe themselves?
Even in Christianity and Judaism - in Christianity, it's ok to eat pork. You won't go to hell. In Judaism - if you eat pork you go to hell. Jews and Christians can give me very logical justifications of their religions when each of them believes wholeheartedly that he is the one who is right - but who is actually right? I gave this paradox a name (unless someone already did) - the symmetry paradox.

Another question,
All around us we hear references to religion and God, like in common phrases - "oh my God (OMG)", "elohim ishmor", "irhamdu l'illa", "boje moi", there are phrases like this in every language. I mean, even I say "Jesus Christ" when I'm angry, even though I'm a Jew. Religion is a part of everyday life everywhere. If you're religious you probably were born in a religious family and were surrounded by religion most of your life. All this contributes to you becoming a follower of your religion, whatever it is. Repetition is an element of psychological warfare, which works very well. Can you see the tiniest possibility that you were brainwashed, as plain as it sounds? Imagine yourself being born and growing in a non-religious tribe (I think there is no such thing though) on some isolated island where the generally accepted religion is polytheistic, would you still be a member of your current religion?

The morals and purity of religion - I constantly hear that religion is moral and pure and that people like atheists are immoral, and that the religious people want to "show them the light" and "save them" and such. Every religion has an elemnt of sin and punishment - be moral or go to hell. This is a factor of fear which is implanted into every religion. Be good and you'll be rewarded by eternal heaven or 72 virgins or something appealing like that. Atheists, on the other hand, don't belong to a religion. They don't have this divine reward/punishment hanging over them. Thus, all the good things they do (and don't tell me atheists are evil and that no atheist ever does a good thing, because that is just plain silly) come not from fear of suffering in the afterlife but from their hearts. Please comment.

Arrogance of religion - religion assumes that humans are the center of the universe and that everything revolves around them. I don't see that. I'm constantly reminded that we humans are animals with big brains and advanced cognitive abilities, but we still have all of our animal instincts like fear, hunger, thirst, anger, reproduction. Think of chewing ("mastipation" - I like the term), defecating, urinating, sweating, drooling, fighting, giving birth, dying, vomiting, screaming, all kinds of social behaviour, like alpha males, group leaders, etc. Think of a group of people standing and laughing. This is so... bovine. Reminds me the bleating of a herd of calves. My point is that, besides our big brains and different goals in life, we are just animals. Thus we are not more in the middle of the universe than a rhino or a penguin. Why should god have any interest in whether we say a prayer before we eat, each and every one of the 7 billion of us?

Final question - the issue of sex.
Why are today's religions against sex? It's the most wonderful activity there is and it's free. How could you anger god by having fun in the privacy of your bedroom? This is a natural thing that animals do and as much as we think highly about ourselves, we are animals with big brains. Why should we be abstinent while other animals are having fun? I guess to distinguish ourselves from animals - but why do it? Probably it's a part of the scheme of that one guy who made this all up in my story in the beginning of the post. Also - What is wrong with gays? What do religions have against them? They're not hurting anybody, they're not trying to convert anybody, something that religion does all the time. Why do women have a permanently lower status than men in religion? What is the benefit of that to serving God and to religion?

It might sound like I disrespect people's belief in God. I don't. I think that everyone should do what they feel right, unless it affects others in a negative way. What religion does, today and throughout recorded history is just the opposite - it affects others in a negative way until it feels right. Religion is what I'm against, not God. There may be a God, but if there is one, I think we should just believe that it exists in some realm and that it's identity, location and nature is a great mistery, to which we should seek the answer, without being afraid.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Is this a Michael puppet account? Lawl.

 

[Gremmie]

Is this a Michael puppet account? Lawl.

Too funny.. I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[wynn]

As a person having an objective view on things

Well, ain't you a god! :bugeye:

 

[Gremmie]

Well, ain't you a god! :bugeye:

His handle/name is your answer.

 

[Adstar]

As a person having an objective view on things, being fortunate enough to have been raised in a family and an environment encouraging free thought, I'd like to write down my opinion about religion.

Once, thousands of years ago, it was the dawn of civilization. Humans were primitive and behaved accordingly. There was no police, no jails, nobody could stop a man from raping a physically weaker woman or murdering another man. There was also the human curiosity, which made people ponder here and there - what is this circle of light shining in the sky? Who made the trees around us? what happens when we die? Death, specifically, was a really puzzling thing. A creature, be it a human or an animal, is interacting with the world around it when suddenly it just stops moving and responding, bloats up, starts to stink and turns into a pile of bones. What is that? Where did that living creature go? Could that happen to me too? But I have this feeling of presence and it's unimaginable that one day this feeling, the self awareness I'm experiencing right now will just vanish. It must go somewhere.
And while humans are desperately searching for an explanation to these problems, one genius man comes up with a brilliant solution to all of them. He gathers the tribe and proclaims the solution to all of the world's problems:

- The world around us was created by superior beings (where do we come from?).
- Besides creating the world, the superior beings also control everything around us (why does everything behave as it does? The concept of fate).
- When you die, there is an afterlife (what is death? Where does my self awareness go after I die?)
- If you do "bad things" when you're alive, the superior beings punish you in the afterlife. If you do "good things", they reward you (police substitute).
- A list of "bad things" and "good things".
- The superior beings revealed themselves to me last night and told me to pass the word to the tribe ("why should we believe you?").

The people of the tribe listened to that and with their herd-like behavior, still present to this day - the need for a leader and with the itching curiosity, it made perfect sense. They called this man a "prophet" and started a tradition, going on to this day. This happened in many tribes around the globe sooner or later. Religion was born. Throughout the years religion has evolved, just like any other constantly maintained creation of man. New deities were added, concepts like divine reward and punishment were revised to have better effect, the list of "bad things" and "good things" was changed here and there, to suit the needs of leaders, the religions of the world had become amazingly complex. Very soon after its' creation, religion started to take a toll on human lives. Deities were so real in human hearts and minds that they started to sacrifice animals and other humans to "thank" the deities - the fruit of imagination of that one man in their tribe who died a long time ago and left this legacy. Very soon people started killing each other for different interpretations of religious stories. Religion started to do the opposite of what it was supposed to do - to maintain law and order. Religion has since become a quicksand, sucking in lives of people that were unfortunate enough to have been born in conservative religious families that discourage free thought.

I have always been puzzled about how people are so blind about all this. I'm very interested in reading answers from religious people to some questions I have.
I ask only one thing - please don't quote the bible. That is not convincing. Please give a logical explanation.

Then you limit yourself to an explanation limited by your logic, which being human is not perfect.

So first question,
There are many religions. Lets take, for example, the Muslims and the Aztecs, though I could take any other two. There are Muslim extremists who are willing to die for Islam. Their belief is so strong that they're willing to die to defend their monotheistic religion. The Aztec's religion, on the other hand, was a polytheistic religion, but they too believed in it so strongly, that they made human sacrifices to "satisfy their gods". Why, then, are the Muslims "correct" about there being one God and not the Aztecs, about there being many gods? If I'd ask an Aztec tricky questions about his religion, he would answer every one of them just as well as a Muslim would, and it would have the same amount of logic to it. Why, then, should I believe the Muslim and not the Aztec and why should they believe themselves?
Even in Christianity and Judaism - in Christianity, it's ok to eat pork. You won't go to hell. In Judaism - if you eat pork you go to hell. Jews and Christians can give me very logical justifications of their religions when each of them believes wholeheartedly that he is the one who is right - but who is actually right? I gave this paradox a name (unless someone already did) - the symmetry paradox.

No paradox at all. If one believes a God exists. Then if two religions give two different versions of what God is then the answer is one or both descriptions of God can or could be wrong.

Another question,
All around us we hear references to religion and God, like in common phrases - "oh my God (OMG)", "elohim ishmor", "irhamdu l'illa", "boje moi", there are phrases like this in every language. I mean, even I say "Jesus Christ" when I'm angry, even though I'm a Jew. Religion is a part of everyday life everywhere. If you're religious you probably were born in a religious family and were surrounded by religion most of your life. All this contributes to you becoming a follower of your religion, whatever it is. Repetition is an element of psychological warfare, which works very well. Can you see the tiniest possibility that you were brainwashed, as plain as it sounds? Imagine yourself being born and growing in a non-religious tribe (I think there is no such thing though) on some isolated island where the generally accepted religion is polytheistic, would you still be a member of your current religion?

I rejected the religion my parents hold as true after reading the bible and agreeing with it and accepting it as truth. Being born into a culture or a religion does not lock one into it if one discovers information different to the norm and believes it then they will move over to that message. If what you suggest was true then no one would have become christians or muslims in the past because they would have remained in the traditions and religions of their parents.

The morals and purity of religion - I constantly hear that religion is moral and pure and that people like atheists are immoral, and that the religious people want to "show them the light" and "save them" and such.

No human being is pure. religious or not. But truth is truth, one can hold truth with admiration while at the same time falling short of living up to the truth one holds with admiration.

Every religion has an elemnt of sin and punishment - be moral or go to hell.

Mine is, believe Jesus and be saved.

This is a factor of fear which is implanted into every religion.

If there is a God and He has total power and control over your eternal destiny then you should be concerned even a bit afraid of Him. Fear is a motivation to investigating God, it works.

Be good and you'll be rewarded by eternal heaven or 72 virgins or something appealing like that.

My religion is about believing and being forgiven for all the times i have not been good, which is like most of the time i am awake.

Atheists, on the other hand, don't belong to a religion. They don't have this divine reward/punishment hanging over them. Thus, all the good things they do (and don't tell me atheists are evil and that no atheist ever does a good thing, because that is just plain silly) come not from fear of suffering in the afterlife but from their hearts. Please comment.

You have just stated in a round about way that people who are religious only do good for others because they fear God or want payment for reward. That is just as offensive as a religious person calling you pure evil. I agree with my God that it is good to do good for others because i agree that doing good is a good thing to do. Also i know i do not have eternity with God because i do Good for others. I have eternity with God because i am forgiven the bad things i have done and the good things i have failed to do. Eternity with God for me is a gift from God not something i secure through doing good.

Arrogance of religion - religion assumes that humans are the center of the universe and that everything revolves around them.

God is the centre.

I don't see that. I'm constantly reminded that we humans are animals with big brains and advanced cognitive abilities, but we still have all of our animal instincts like fear, hunger, thirst, anger, reproduction. Think of chewing ("mastipation" - I like the term), defecating, urinating, sweating, drooling, fighting, giving birth, dying, vomiting, screaming, all kinds of social behaviour, like alpha males, group leaders, etc. Think of a group of people standing and laughing. This is so... bovine. Reminds me the bleating of a herd of calves. My point is that, besides our big brains and different goals in life, we are just animals. Thus we are not more in the middle of the universe than a rhino or a penguin. Why should god have any interest in whether we say a prayer before we eat, each and every one of the 7 billion of us?

Not really asking a question here. More like preaching in an atheist kind of way.

Final question - the issue of sex.
Why are today's religions against sex?

Umm.. if religions where against sex then there religious people who not be having children... Soooo how do you think a Christian woman gets pregnant ???

It's the most wonderful activity there is and it's free. How could you anger god by having fun in the privacy of your bedroom?

Sex was given to be enjoyed in a marriage relationship in view of creating a stable environment for the raising of children within a family environment. Many people also try to remove the emotional aspect of sex and try to put forward that it is only a physical thing. But those who try to go down that part find out in the end that they are pierced with sorrows.

What is wrong with gays? What do religions have against them?

The act of sexual relations between same sex couples is unnatural, even in scientific terms it goes against darwinian principles of the prime importance of reproduction. If atheist and the wider community where true to darwinian principles then there would be a vibrant field in medicine and psychology trying to cure homosexuals from their mental dysfunction. But alas no such professions exist nor are there any plans for them.

As a Christian i do not hate homosexuals. But homosexuality i am totally against it. As a forgiven sinner myself i know that homosexuals who believe Jesus will also be forgiven their sins. But the homosexual rights movement is putting forward that homosexuality is good, this is the toxic message that kills homosexuals that believe it, because a person who believes they are doing good will not seek forgiveness for their deeds. In Christianity homosexuals are saved and have eternal life with Jesus. In the homosexual rights movement homosexuals have eternity in the lake of fire.

Why do women have a permanently lower status than men in religion? What is the benefit of that to serving God and to religion?

Woman are to be loved but are not to rule over men. I guess you will have to ask God why that is. When you meet Him.

It might sound like I disrespect people's belief in God. I don't.

Of cource you disrespect it. If you respected it you would believe there is a God.

I think that everyone should do what they feel right, unless it affects others in a negative way. What religion does, today and throughout recorded history is just the opposite - it affects others in a negative way until it feels right. Religion is what I'm against, not God. There may be a God, but if there is one, I think we should just believe that it exists in some realm and that it's identity, location and nature is a great mistery, to which we should seek the answer, without being afraid.

But fear is a great motivator and if God wants you to seek Him then fear is a sure way to make people perform a serious search. If God exists and He wants to interact with you then He will not put up with you slotting Him into a mystery box so you can go on living life as you deem fit and ignoring Him.

You got to come to a decision. Does God exist or does He Not exist. If you believe He does not exist then coming here asking questions has no real point, does it?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Is this a Michael puppet account? Lawl.

Naaa don't think so. Modern culture mass produces these types. It's like an army of zombies ready to be stamped and chipped for the slaughter.


All Praise The Ancient OF Days

 

[Gremmie]

Naaa don't think so. Modern culture mass produces these types. It's like an army of zombies ready to be stamped and chipped for the slaughter.


All Praise The Ancient OF Days[/QUOTE

Not really sure what you mean by that..But, OK:shrug:

 

[IchBin]

Then you limit yourself to an explanation limited by your logic, which being human is not perfect.

This is exactly the same thing creationists are doing. They say that it's not logical that this world was created out of nothing, therefore there must be a creator, a God. Why does this logic apply, while my logic doesn't? In my opinion, creationists' logic is arrogant logic. You say that since the divine explanation is logical to you, it must be true, without grain of doubt.

No paradox at all. If one believes a God exists. Then if two religions give two different versions of what God is then the answer is one or both descriptions of God can or could be wrong.

Doesn't this concern you that your religion could be wrong and some other religion is right? There are at least a hundred religions - look at the list of religions on Wikipedia. There probably are thousands of them. Lets take the lowest estimate - a hundred. Then the chances that your religion, or at least your description of God is the correct one is 1/100.

I rejected the religion my parents hold as true after reading the bible and agreeing with it and accepting it as truth. Being born into a culture or a religion does not lock one into it if one discovers information different to the norm and believes it then they will move over to that message. If what you suggest was true then no one would have become christians or muslims in the past because they would have remained in the traditions and religions of their parents.

Still, you don't see many Christians converting to Islam or Judaism, same thing about each one of the other two. My point is that you can't come up with the religion you currently wholeheartedly believe to describe the reality around you without first hearing about it from some source.

No human being is pure. religious or not. But truth is truth, one can hold truth with admiration while at the same time falling short of living up to the truth one holds with admiration.

Fine, than if religious people are not perfect, why do they try to "save" me and teach me morals when I say I don't believe in God?

If there is a God and He has total power and control over your eternal destiny then you should be concerned even a bit afraid of Him. Fear is a motivation to investigating God, it works.

I'm more motivated to investigate God by curiosity, not by fear. Being motivated by fear is not healthy. It's called terror.

I have eternity with God because i am forgiven the bad things i have done and the good things i have failed to do.

So you could do really bad things throughout your life and then be forgiven and go to heaven. I still don't see the high morals in that.

Eternity with God for me is a gift from God not something i secure through doing good.

Yet children are being told "if you're bad, you'll go to hell". I believe that this idea is imprinted in the mind from childhood.

God is the centre.

Yet God is very similar to man. He has feelings (he gets angry now and then), he is a humanoid (we're created in the image of God) and he can speak a language humans can understand. This is called anthropomorphism. The attribution of human traits to something non-human, so that humans could connect with it on an emotional level. I think this is enough to say that religions want to make people believe that they are the most important things in the universe, second only to God himself, which is not true. If humans did not exist, the universe would still exist and so would life.

Sex was given to be enjoyed in a marriage relationship in view of creating a stable environment for the raising of children within a family environment.

This may sound like "atheist preaching" to you, but I see a very carefully planned scheme in every aspect of religion. In this particular case, for example, as the designer of religion, being interested in the longevity of my design, if I had two options - sex is not restricted to marriage or sex is restricted to marriage, I'd definitely go with the restriction, since it has many benefits to the continuation of my religion. If you had casual sex (without prophylactics) here and there, you would have children scattered everywhere, who would most likely not be raised by you and therefore would not be instilled by the teachings of your religion. This is bad for the religion. On the other hand, if children are born in a family, they are raised in a religious environment. Good for religion.

Many people also try to remove the emotional aspect of sex and try to put forward that it is only a physical thing. But those who try to go down that part find out in the end that they are pierced with sorrows.

I disagree. It's great fun and there is nothing wrong with having casual sex once in a while, without commitment. I have many friends who did that and are now settled in a long term relationship without any negative side-effects. I think that on the contrary, if all the sex you have is in a relationship, you will get bored with it and start having marital problems, or cheating.

The act of sexual relations between same sex couples is unnatural, even in scientific terms it goes against darwinian principles of the prime importance of reproduction.

Incorrect. Please read this research:
sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm

If atheist and the wider community where true to darwinian principles then there would be a vibrant field in medicine and psychology trying to cure homosexuals from their mental dysfunction. But alas no such professions exist nor are there any plans for them.

Why would you force your wishes on someone else?! I don't like seeing two males make out, but I have enough confidence in my sexuality to not let a sight like that affect me. As long as something doesn't hurt me and others around me, I don't mind. Gays are human, and if they're enjoying their sexual lives, good for them! All I can understand from what you're saying is that "live and let live" does not apply to religions.

In Christianity homosexuals are saved and have eternal life with Jesus. In the homosexual rights movement homosexuals have eternity in the lake of fire.

This is a point in favor of Christianity. In Islam they are being executed. In Judaism they're being banished from the community. The general idea is the same.

Woman are to be loved but are not to rule over men. I guess you will have to ask God why that is. When you meet Him.

This doesn't answer my question. If a woman has leadership skills better than the men in her group, why not make her the leader? What's the logical reason not to do it?

Of cource you disrespect it. If you respected it you would believe there is a God.

You don't need to have the same opinion with another person to respect it. I have many religious friends, and I respect their opinions. We never fight over religion nor do we ever argue about it. They keep it to themselves and I respect it and I keep it to myself and they respect it.

But fear is a great motivator and if God wants you to seek Him then fear is a sure way to make people perform a serious search. If God exists and He wants to interact with you then He will not put up with you slotting Him into a mystery box so you can go on living life as you deem fit and ignoring Him.

Why doesn't God just show up and end all those time consuming debates on which people are wasting so much of their time on?

You got to come to a decision. Does God exist or does He Not exist. If you believe He does not exist then coming here asking questions has no real point, does it?

I wrote what I think about God. I don't know if some creating force exists, and if it does, it's a lot more wonderful than what we believe it to be. What I'm trying to understand by asking those questions is the stubbornness and closed-mindedness of religion and religious claims.

 

[IchBin]

Naaa don't think so. Modern culture mass produces these types. It's like an army of zombies ready to be stamped and chipped for the slaughter.

Replace "modern culture" with "religion" and this applies just as well to you, my religious friend.

 

[Lori_7]

As a person having an objective view on things, being fortunate enough to have been raised in a family and an environment encouraging free thought, I'd like to write down my opinion about religion.

/chuckle

Once, thousands of years ago, it was the dawn of civilization. Humans were primitive and behaved accordingly. There was no police, no jails, nobody could stop a man from raping a physically weaker woman or murdering another man. There was also the human curiosity, which made people ponder here and there - what is this circle of light shining in the sky? Who made the trees around us? what happens when we die? Death, specifically, was a really puzzling thing. A creature, be it a human or an animal, is interacting with the world around it when suddenly it just stops moving and responding, bloats up, starts to stink and turns into a pile of bones. What is that? Where did that living creature go? Could that happen to me too? But I have this feeling of presence and it's unimaginable that one day this feeling, the self awareness I'm experiencing right now will just vanish. It must go somewhere.
And while humans are desperately searching for an explanation to these problems, one genius man comes up with a brilliant solution to all of them. He gathers the tribe and proclaims the solution to all of the world's problems:

what is all of this hoopla about a god and jesus? the genius's brilliant solution is a perspective that all theists are unintelligent, close-minded, and blind. really??

- The world around us was created by superior beings (where do we come from?).
- Besides creating the world, the superior beings also control everything around us (why does everything behave as it does? The concept of fate).
- When you die, there is an afterlife (what is death? Where does my self awareness go after I die?)
- If you do "bad things" when you're alive, the superior beings punish you in the afterlife. If you do "good things", they reward you (police substitute).
- A list of "bad things" and "good things".
- The superior beings revealed themselves to me last night and told me to pass the word to the tribe ("why should we believe you?").

all of the above can be attributed to law, which is most objective thing that exists.

The people of the tribe listened to that and with their herd-like behavior, still present to this day - the need for a leader and with the itching curiosity, it made perfect sense. They called this man a "prophet" and started a tradition, going on to this day. This happened in many tribes around the globe sooner or later. Religion was born. Throughout the years religion has evolved, just like any other constantly maintained creation of man. New deities were added, concepts like divine reward and punishment were revised to have better effect, the list of "bad things" and "good things" was changed here and there, to suit the needs of leaders, the religions of the world had become amazingly complex. Very soon after its' creation, religion started to take a toll on human lives. Deities were so real in human hearts and minds that they started to sacrifice animals and other humans to "thank" the deities - the fruit of imagination of that one man in their tribe who died a long time ago and left this legacy. Very soon people started killing each other for different interpretations of religious stories. Religion started to do the opposite of what it was supposed to do - to maintain law and order. Religion has since become a quicksand, sucking in lives of people that were unfortunate enough to have been born in conservative religious families that discourage free thought.

nothing can discourage free thought, and in my experience, i have found that the conservative religious family's attempt to discourage free thought backfire. most people have a negative association with, and resent this, type of behavior, and do not enjoy being told how to think or what to believe. they prefer to figure it out for themselves. and if they don't then no one is to blame except for themselves.

I have always been puzzled about how people are so blind about all this. I'm very interested in reading answers from religious people to some questions I have.
I ask only one thing - please don't quote the bible. That is not convincing. Please give a logical explanation.

i won't quote the bible, per your request, but i will say that you might be surprised to know that it is you who are blind. first, to the existence of god, proof of which is shown to, and recognized by you. and secondly, to the perspective that this realization creates, and the perspective that the holy spirit cultivates in you through enlightenment.

So first question,
There are many religions. Lets take, for example, the Muslims and the Aztecs, though I could take any other two. There are Muslim extremists who are willing to die for Islam. Their belief is so strong that they're willing to die to defend their monotheistic religion. The Aztec's religion, on the other hand, was a polytheistic religion, but they too believed in it so strongly, that they made human sacrifices to "satisfy their gods". Why, then, are the Muslims "correct" about there being one God and not the Aztecs, about there being many gods? If I'd ask an Aztec tricky questions about his religion, he would answer every one of them just as well as a Muslim would, and it would have the same amount of logic to it. Why, then, should I believe the Muslim and not the Aztec and why should they believe themselves?

why do you think muslims are correct?

Even in Christianity and Judaism - in Christianity, it's ok to eat pork. You won't go to hell. In Judaism - if you eat pork you go to hell. Jews and Christians can give me very logical justifications of their religions when each of them believes wholeheartedly that he is the one who is right - but who is actually right? I gave this paradox a name (unless someone already did) - the symmetry paradox.

that's because jewish people don't believe that jesus was the christ.

Another question,
All around us we hear references to religion and God, like in common phrases - "oh my God (OMG)", "elohim ishmor", "irhamdu l'illa", "boje moi", there are phrases like this in every language. I mean, even I say "Jesus Christ" when I'm angry, even though I'm a Jew. Religion is a part of everyday life everywhere. If you're religious you probably were born in a religious family and were surrounded by religion most of your life. All this contributes to you becoming a follower of your religion, whatever it is. Repetition is an element of psychological warfare, which works very well. Can you see the tiniest possibility that you were brainwashed, as plain as it sounds? Imagine yourself being born and growing in a non-religious tribe (I think there is no such thing though) on some isolated island where the generally accepted religion is polytheistic, would you still be a member of your current religion?

based on what you've said here i would assume that you would be indoctrinated, but i have not been indoctrinated myself. i don't practice a religion, but i live my life according to my beliefs, which are mine. they didn't come from a religion, or another person, they came from my own experience, and they belong to only me.

The morals and purity of religion - I constantly hear that religion is moral and pure and that people like atheists are immoral, and that the religious people want to "show them the light" and "save them" and such. Every religion has an elemnt of sin and punishment - be moral or go to hell. This is a factor of fear which is implanted into every religion. Be good and you'll be rewarded by eternal heaven or 72 virgins or something appealing like that. Atheists, on the other hand, don't belong to a religion. They don't have this divine reward/punishment hanging over them. Thus, all the good things they do (and don't tell me atheists are evil and that no atheist ever does a good thing, because that is just plain silly) come not from fear of suffering in the afterlife but from their hearts. Please comment.

morality is man-made. law is god-made. actually i think that law is a part of what god is. actions have consequences. that's science. if there is light, it is shown through behavior that is beneficial. each individual will have a different perspective of how beneficial that behavior is, if at all. the bottom line is, you can know god. you can have a relationship with god. it's up to you. if you choose not to, there are of course consequences to that, according to law. it's up to you.

Arrogance of religion - religion assumes that humans are the center of the universe and that everything revolves around them. I don't see that. I'm constantly reminded that we humans are animals with big brains and advanced cognitive abilities, but we still have all of our animal instincts like fear, hunger, thirst, anger, reproduction. Think of chewing ("mastipation" - I like the term), defecating, urinating, sweating, drooling, fighting, giving birth, dying, vomiting, screaming, all kinds of social behaviour, like alpha males, group leaders, etc. Think of a group of people standing and laughing. This is so... bovine. Reminds me the bleating of a herd of calves. My point is that, besides our big brains and different goals in life, we are just animals. Thus we are not more in the middle of the universe than a rhino or a penguin. Why should god have any interest in whether we say a prayer before we eat, each and every one of the 7 billion of us?

actually, the basis of christianity is communion, which is an appreciation for the whole, and the good of all.

Final question - the issue of sex.
Why are today's religions against sex? It's the most wonderful activity there is and it's free. How could you anger god by having fun in the privacy of your bedroom? This is a natural thing that animals do and as much as we think highly about ourselves, we are animals with big brains. Why should we be abstinent while other animals are having fun? I guess to distinguish ourselves from animals - but why do it? Probably it's a part of the scheme of that one guy who made this all up in my story in the beginning of the post. Also - What is wrong with gays? What do religions have against them? They're not hurting anybody, they're not trying to convert anybody, something that religion does all the time. Why do women have a permanently lower status than men in religion? What is the benefit of that to serving God and to religion?

sex is probably the most impactive aspect of our lives, and religion is about rules that attempt to control impact.

and unfortunately, people fall back on these rules, that attempt to correct or suppress what's wrong with them, instead of actually correcting their thought or perspective that is wrong.

lust came up in another thread, and this is a great example. religion offers all kinds of silly ways to attempt to control or suppress lust. they go to great lengths to "cover it up", all the while cherishing their lust. my suggestion is, changing the mind and the perspective so that lust is not an issue, then people wouldn't have to jump through hoops in an effort to suppress it or avoid the consequences of it.

It might sound like I disrespect people's belief in God. I don't. I think that everyone should do what they feel right, unless it affects others in a negative way. What religion does, today and throughout recorded history is just the opposite - it affects others in a negative way until it feels right. Religion is what I'm against, not God. There may be a God, but if there is one, I think we should just believe that it exists in some realm and that it's identity, location and nature is a great mistery, to which we should seek the answer, without being afraid.

i agree. i think that someone can practice religion for the wrong reasons, but i think it's impossible to believe in god for the wrong reasons. i think a lot of people adopt the idea of a god for a lot of reasons, but to truly believe, you have to know, and that knowledge comes from god himself.

 

[Lori_7]

i think that religion is a cheap substitute for a relationship with god.

 

[lightgigantic]

As a person having an objective view on things, being fortunate enough to have been raised in a family and an environment encouraging free thought, I'd like to write down my opinion about religion.

so is this an objective view of your opinion or your opinion of an objective view?

Once, thousands of years ago, it was the dawn of civilization. Humans were primitive and behaved accordingly. There was no police, no jails, nobody could stop a man from raping a physically weaker woman or murdering another man. There was also the human curiosity, which made people ponder here and there - what is this circle of light shining in the sky? Who made the trees around us? what happens when we die? Death, specifically, was a really puzzling thing. A creature, be it a human or an animal, is interacting with the world around it when suddenly it just stops moving and responding, bloats up, starts to stink and turns into a pile of bones. What is that? Where did that living creature go? Could that happen to me too? But I have this feeling of presence and it's unimaginable that one day this feeling, the self awareness I'm experiencing right now will just vanish. It must go somewhere.
And while humans are desperately searching for an explanation to these problems, one genius man comes up with a brilliant solution to all of them. He gathers the tribe and proclaims the solution to all of the world's problems:

You neglected to cite the historical and archeological evidence for this thesis

- The world around us was created by superior beings (where do we come from?).
- Besides creating the world, the superior beings also control everything around us (why does everything behave as it does? The concept of fate).
- When you die, there is an afterlife (what is death? Where does my self awareness go after I die?)
- If you do "bad things" when you're alive, the superior beings punish you in the afterlife. If you do "good things", they reward you (police substitute).
- A list of "bad things" and "good things".
- The superior beings revealed themselves to me last night and told me to pass the word to the tribe ("why should we believe you?").

Regardless whether god is fact or fiction, a world that is headed up by an omniscient personality would require all these characteristics in order to be tenable
:shrug:

The people of the tribe listened to that and with their herd-like behavior, still present to this day - the need for a leader and with the itching curiosity, it made perfect sense. They called this man a "prophet" and started a tradition, going on to this day. This happened in many tribes around the globe sooner or later.

given that there are vast geographical and cultural boundaries between these tribes (ambiguous as they are) you don't really explain how it became a global phenomena on account of one guys bright idea. In fact given the impossibility of religion spreading through conventional social forums, many atheists feel more comfortable with the notion that religion is a consequence of something inherent in the human psyche (a notion that doesn't make for a more credible notion of it being false, but at least it doesn't suffer from the inadequacies of the thesis you put forward)

Religion was born. Throughout the years religion has evolved, just like any other constantly maintained creation of man.

Interesting.
So you think evolution is a characteristic of creation?

New deities were added, concepts like divine reward and punishment were revised to have better effect, the list of "bad things" and "good things" was changed here and there, to suit the needs of leaders, the religions of the world had become amazingly complex. Very soon after its' creation, religion started to take a toll on human lives. Deities were so real in human hearts and minds that they started to sacrifice animals and other humans to "thank" the deities - the fruit of imagination of that one man in their tribe who died a long time ago and left this legacy. Very soon people started killing each other for different interpretations of religious stories.

actually traditionally animal sacrifice was connected with the consumption of it. Of course now we are so advanced that we have factory farms. As for people killing each other its not clear what you are talking about but I guess its something political. Anything that has a substantial amount of social substance behind it has the potential to be veiled in political issues (of which war is a consequence) ... in fact there are good arguments that it is only with the rise of secularism that we see the persecution of the poor as a criminal class, the maintenance of standing armies, absolute power and absolute conflict.

Religion started to do the opposite of what it was supposed to do - to maintain law and order. Religion has since become a quicksand, sucking in lives of people that were unfortunate enough to have been born in conservative religious families that discourage free thought.

Given that the people in your street don't habitually kill, steal and rape one another (as you opened with your idea of social communities pre-religion) its not clear why it is so unfortunate.

I have always been puzzled about how people are so blind about all this. I'm very interested in reading answers from religious people to some questions I have.
I ask only one thing - please don't quote the bible. That is not convincing. Please give a logical explanation.

So first question,
There are many religions. Lets take, for example, the Muslims and the Aztecs, though I could take any other two. There are Muslim extremists who are willing to die for Islam. Their belief is so strong that they're willing to die to defend their monotheistic religion. The Aztec's religion, on the other hand, was a polytheistic religion, but they too believed in it so strongly, that they made human sacrifices to "satisfy their gods". Why, then, are the Muslims "correct" about there being one God and not the Aztecs, about there being many gods? If I'd ask an Aztec tricky questions about his religion, he would answer every one of them just as well as a Muslim would, and it would have the same amount of logic to it. Why, then, should I believe the Muslim and not the Aztec and why should they believe themselves?

If your question is how can both a polytheistic and monotheistic view be reconciled in one world view, you need look no further than a political system headed up by a monarch. From one perspective there is one ruler, from another there are a host of empowered representatives that act on their behalf

Even in Christianity and Judaism - in Christianity, it's ok to eat pork. You won't go to hell. In Judaism - if you eat pork you go to hell. Jews and Christians can give me very logical justifications of their religions when each of them believes wholeheartedly that he is the one who is right - but who is actually right? I gave this paradox a name (unless someone already did) - the symmetry paradox.

If one can't distinguish between a detail and a principle one can see "symmetry paradox" anywhere. For instance is the essential principle of Judaism "don't eat pork"? Along similar lines, one could criticize the medical profession : One guys wants to operate, another wants to give medication, another wants to change my diet and another wants to give a massage - and they all have logical arguments for their performance. When will these bozos get their act together and simply come up with one party line, eh?

Another question,
All around us we hear references to religion and God, like in common phrases - "oh my God (OMG)", "elohim ishmor", "irhamdu l'illa", "boje moi", there are phrases like this in every language. I mean, even I say "Jesus Christ" when I'm angry, even though I'm a Jew. Religion is a part of everyday life everywhere. If you're religious you probably were born in a religious family and were surrounded by religion most of your life. All this contributes to you becoming a follower of your religion, whatever it is. Repetition is an element of psychological warfare, which works very well. Can you see the tiniest possibility that you were brainwashed, as plain as it sounds? Imagine yourself being born and growing in a non-religious tribe (I think there is no such thing though) on some isolated island where the generally accepted religion is polytheistic, would you still be a member of your current religion?

Not sure what you are suggesting here ... that if you say OMG enough you run the risk of becoming religious? That aside, if you feel uncomfortable with one's values (regardless of whether they be atheistic or theistic or anything) having arisen as a consequence of the social community one appears in, perhaps you can indicate which values you have that weren't a consequence of any social conditioning (could be a bit difficult since there are apparently even communities of coprophiliacs)

The morals and purity of religion - I constantly hear that religion is moral and pure and that people like atheists are immoral, and that the religious people want to "show them the light" and "save them" and such.

You can't see how you are also on your own soap box with the "message of truth"?

Every religion has an elemnt of sin and punishment - be moral or go to hell.

Do you think this is the highest element of religion - IOW there is no higher platform of being than operating under the shadow of punishment?

This is a factor of fear which is implanted into every religion.

There is a factor of fear implanted in every social community ... whether it be in the form of ostracism, receiving a parking fine or the police kicking down your door at 3am

Be good and you'll be rewarded by eternal heaven or 72 virgins or something appealing like that.

actually if you bothered to investigate theistic claims, you would see that it a bit more than offering the external appearance of goodness or the reception of benefits that are worldly in nature

Atheists, on the other hand, don't belong to a religion. They don't have this divine reward/punishment hanging over them. Thus, all the good things they do (and don't tell me atheists are evil and that no atheist ever does a good thing, because that is just plain silly) come not from fear of suffering in the afterlife but from their hearts. Please comment.

Bollocks.
The good (or bad) that an atheist does is simply a consequence of the social norms they are operating out of ... the standard norm being driven by the desire for name, fame, adoration, distinction etc

Arrogance of religion - religion assumes that humans are the center of the universe and that everything revolves around them. I don't see that.

I don't see that religion assumes that humans are at the center of the universe. I do see that it assumes god is however.

I'm constantly reminded that we humans are animals with big brains and advanced cognitive abilities, but we still have all of our animal instincts like fear, hunger, thirst, anger, reproduction. Think of chewing ("mastipation" - I like the term), defecating, urinating, sweating, drooling, fighting, giving birth, dying, vomiting, screaming, all kinds of social behaviour, like alpha males, group leaders, etc. Think of a group of people standing and laughing. This is so... bovine. Reminds me the bleating of a herd of calves. My point is that, besides our big brains and different goals in life, we are just animals.

If we have goals that are better achieved in other animal forms, there is the theistic suggestion that this is what we might come to achieve in our next life. The only distinction that the human form offers is the potential to be religious or operate out of a higher state of being that can lead one out of this world. If we are not interested in that, there are plenty of other forms of life that aren't complicated by issues that make defecating, urinating, sweating, eating, reproducing and fighting such a problem.

Thus we are not more in the middle of the universe than a rhino or a penguin. Why should god have any interest in whether we say a prayer before we eat, each and every one of the 7 billion of us?

why would an omnipotent personality be strapped to a numbers game?

Final question - the issue of sex.
Why are today's religions against sex? It's the most wonderful activity there is and it's free.

Only if you are humping a comatose person in the gutter. Prostitutes require prompt payment and entering into a social relationship is probably everyone's highest experience of sacrifice (what to speak if one has kids - you know, the natural consequence of sex for most people)

How could you anger god by having fun in the privacy of your bedroom?

lol
what to speak of god, there's a host of things you have to do to avoid angering the person you are having "fun" with if you look at the wider picture

This is a natural thing that animals do and as much as we think highly about ourselves, we are animals with big brains.

unfortunately we use much of our big brains in avoiding the consequences of the act, so I don't think its accurate to describe it as "natural"

Why should we be abstinent while other animals are having fun? I guess to distinguish ourselves from animals - but why do it?

I'm not sure why you think an absence of advanced social convention (as with the animals) translates into more fun

Probably it's a part of the scheme of that one guy who made this all up in my story in the beginning of the post.

on the contrary it appears you have a scheme that doesn't see past the immediate satisfaction of your genitals - needless to say its not a very far reaching perspective

Also - What is wrong with gays? What do religions have against them? They're not hurting anybody,

any problem a gay person has is probably not too much different from the problems of any person with out of control senses (which tends to be the default position of all persons in a materialistic society)

they're not trying to convert anybody, something that religion does all the time.

meh
all discussion of ideas at converting someone to something

Why do women have a permanently lower status than men in religion?

They have a different status, not a lower one. Its only since society has become more materialistic - or specifically, secular (ie the possession of wealth being the final word in determining one's status) that they are thrown in the light as being lower

What is the benefit of that to serving God and to religion?

Being socialized around different values aside from one's own aggrandizement, which is the key to granting passage from this inferior world which we deem as inhabitable due to our relentless pursuit of third class ideals

It might sound like I disrespect people's belief in God. I don't. I think that everyone should do what they feel right, unless it affects others in a negative way. What religion does, today and throughout recorded history is just the opposite - it affects others in a negative way until it feels right. Religion is what I'm against, not God. There may be a God, but if there is one, I think we should just believe that it exists in some realm and that it's identity, location and nature is a great mistery, to which we should seek the answer, without being afraid.

If the identity, location and nature is a great mystery, how on earth are you supposed to seek it?

 

[IchBin]

I completely disagree with most of the things that have been said and I don't see how this discussion is anything but a waste of our time, yet there are some things that I must comment on:

Bollocks.
The good (or bad) that an atheist does is simply a consequence of the social norms they are operating out of ... the standard norm being driven by the desire for name, fame, adoration, distinction etc

I find what you said very offending and I suggest you include some atheists in your circle of friends. You might learn surprising things. When I help somebody it's not because I'm looking for personal gain of any kind and it's not because I am self-conscious about what others think of me. I do it because I have empathy, which is something you don't need religion or belief in God in order to have.

They have a different status, not a lower one.

Oh really? So in Islam, a man treats his wives like cattle, but they're the same status as the man. Status can't be "different, but the same", it is either lower or higher.

BTW, I noticed by some of your phrases that you think I'm criticizing Christianity. I'm speaking about all religions.

 

[lightgigantic]

I completely disagree with most of the things that have been said and I don't see how this discussion is anything but a waste of our time, yet there are some things that I must comment on:


I find what you said very offending and I suggest you include some atheists in your circle of friends. You might learn surprising things. When I help somebody it's not because I'm looking for personal gain of any kind and it's not because I am self-conscious about what others think of me. I do it because I have empathy, which is something you don't need religion or belief in God in order to have.

I wasn't talking exclusively of atheists - its the default position of everyone - that's why altruism isn't heralded as the pinnacle of religious principles since it is more or less veiled selfishness (so one thinks of charity in terms of MY family, MY people, MY community, MY nation, etc ... all of which are derivative of one's own (false) ego)

Oh really? So in Islam, a man treats his wives like cattle, but they're the same status as the man. Status can't be "different, but the same", it is either lower or higher.

I never said it was the same.
I said it was different.
:shrug:

Apples are different from oranges. Does that make one lower and another higher?

BTW, I noticed by some of your phrases that you think I'm criticizing Christianity. I'm speaking about all religions.

Not sure why you think that - I was speaking generally too.

 

[Michael]

IchBin,

Welcome to Sciforums I have one questions and a comment.

Firstly, you said you were a Jew, but you seem to be atheist. Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean you're "a Jew"? Is that the same as being "Jewish"?

Secondly, as a suggestion, in the future I'd break down these many different ideas into small more manageable posts. We could write for pages and pages on just a single topic of Aztecs for example.


I'm atheist, and actually all of us are for one God or another

 

[IchBin]

IchBin,

Welcome to Sciforums I have one questions and a comment.

Firstly, you said you were a Jew, but you seem to be atheist. Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean you're "a Jew"? Is that the same as being "Jewish"?

Secondly, as a suggestion, in the future I'd break down these many different ideas into small more manageable posts. We could write for pages and pages on just a single topic of Aztecs for example.


I'm atheist, and actually all of us are for one God or another

Thanks Michael,

I meant formally, that is - my parents are Jewish, but I don't practice any religion, I don't believe in God and I consider myself an atheist.

I accept your suggestion. I started this thread because I got really irritated at something I read regarding this topic, so I just spilled out what I had on my mind without thinking about how I'm going to respond to all the counter-attacks in the little spare time I have...

 

[Adstar]

This is exactly the same thing creationists are doing. They say that it's not logical that this world was created out of nothing, therefore there must be a creator, a God. Why does this logic apply, while my logic doesn't? In my opinion, creationists' logic is arrogant logic. You say that since the divine explanation is logical to you, it must be true, without grain of doubt.

These points in no way detract from my point about human logic being imperfect. Also arrogance can only be founded upon a thought which comes from ones own deduction. By definition the thoughts put forward by creationists come from the Bible and therefore are not based on their deductions.

Doesn't this concern you that your religion could be wrong and some other religion is right? There are at least a hundred religions - look at the list of religions on Wikipedia. There probably are thousands of them. Lets take the lowest estimate - a hundred. Then the chances that your religion, or at least your description of God is the correct one is 1/100.

No such thing as odds and chance when it come to the Will of God. What i believe in relation to the will of God is either correct or incorrect. So let everyone be attracted to what they wish to believe. in the end the truth will stand up and those who have a love for the truth will have the eternal benefit of that truth.

Still, you don't see many Christians converting to Islam or Judaism, same thing about each one of the other two. My point is that you can't come up with the religion you currently wholeheartedly believe to describe the reality around you without first hearing about it from some source.

I do see Christians converting to judaisim and islam, new age movement buddhism, athisim, hinduism and a lot between the different denominations. There is a huge amount of movement going on.

Fine, than if religious people are not perfect, why do they try to "save" me and teach me morals when I say I don't believe in God?

1) Because they are told by Jesus through the bible that they are to share the message of God to all people.

2) And they should do so because they love other people and want to see them experience the joy of knowing Jesus and knowing that they are saved from the eternal lake of fire.

I'm more motivated to investigate God by curiosity, not by fear. Being motivated by fear is not healthy. It's called terror.

But you seem to have already come to your conclusion that God does not exists because you think Christian beliefs are false. maybe if you had a bit of fear you might not be so proud and confident in your own measurement of the Word of God. Sometimes having fear is a blessing. Fear is natures way of giving warning.

So you could do really bad things throughout your life and then be forgiven and go to heaven. I still don't see the high morals in that.

I know a lot of people think it is foolishness and have rejected the concept of forgiveness. People thirst for revenge for the wrongs done to them. So in the end they themselves will face the revenge of God for all the wrongs they have done to others. They will be held accountable for every wrong they have done. Just as they deemed it right and proper for others to be held accountable for the wrongs they committed.

Yet children are being told "if you're bad, you'll go to hell". I believe that this idea is imprinted in the mind from childhood.

Then the parents who said this to the child have been either mistaken or mischievous. false religion has been around for a long time. So maybe your parents where told the same thing from your grand parents and so forth and so forth. A lot of kids look upon their parents as gods on earth. But the truth is they are only mere human beings quite capable of gross error and telling children that "if you're bad, you'll go to hell" is gross error in Christianity.

Yet God is very similar to man. He has feelings (he gets angry now and then), he is a humanoid (we're created in the image of God) and he can speak a language humans can understand. This is called anthropomorphism. The attribution of human traits to something non-human, so that humans could connect with it on an emotional level. I think this is enough to say that religions want to make people believe that they are the most important things in the universe, second only to God himself, which is not true. If humans did not exist, the universe would still exist and so would life.

Ok a lot of "religions" do attempt to give a reason for the expressed will of God to make it easier for people to accept the will of God. In this there is danger because the true reason for God's will on a particular issue may have no relation to the reason/reasons given by the religious. Wisdom is to make sure that the reasons one gives are expressed as ones own speculations.

This may sound like "atheist preaching" to you, but I see a very carefully planned scheme in every aspect of religion. In this particular case, for example, as the designer of religion, being interested in the longevity of my design, if I had two options - sex is not restricted to marriage or sex is restricted to marriage, I'd definitely go with the restriction, since it has many benefits to the continuation of my religion.

Yes but can you not see that your reasons for going with the restriction my have no relation to the reasons God has given for the restriction. We see that in times past the reason some religious gave for avoiding pre-marital sex was to avoid unwanted pregnancies and the hardship and social dislocation that causes. But along comes the condom and the pill and people suddenly proclaim that the reasons behind God establishing sex within marriage is suddenly obsolete and they run of to fornicate with as many "conquests" as they can get. But all along the reasons given for Gods will on the issue where reasoned speculation by the religious. Those reasoning where never given by God in scripture. Therefore the true reasons have never been firmly established. That’s where trust in God should be the only firm reason for attempting to follow any of His guidance we see in the scriptures.

If you had casual sex (without prophylactics) here and there, you would have children scattered everywhere, who would most likely not be raised by you and therefore would not be instilled by the teachings of your religion. This is bad for the religion. On the other hand, if children are born in a family, they are raised in a religious environment. Good for religion.

Here again is reasoning. But in the end they may have nothing to do with the actual reasoning of God.

I disagree. It's great fun and there is nothing wrong with having casual sex once in a while, without commitment. I have many friends who did that and are now settled in a long term relationship without any negative side-effects. I think that on the contrary, if all the sex you have is in a relationship, you will get bored with it and start having marital problems, or cheating.

So be it. What one approves of either justifies them in spirit or condemns them in spirit.

Why would you force your wishes on someone else?!

Who is forcing anything on anyone????

I don't like seeing two males make out, but I have enough confidence in my sexuality to not let a sight like that affect me.

Contradiction. You state that it does not effect you but you state that "I don't like seeing two males make out" So it does effect you. making your statement that it does not effect you a lie.

As long as something doesn't hurt me and others around me, I don't mind.

But i does hurt them in relation to their relationship with God. And to see others relationship with God affected adversely hurts me.

Gays are human, and if they're enjoying their sexual lives, good for them! All I can understand from what you're saying is that "live and let live" does not apply to religions.

Well it applies to my faith. I do not go down the street with a club ready to whack any homosexuals i see walking in the street holding hands and kissing. My beliefs do not force them to stop engaging in their acts. It is a injustice to proclaim that an expressed belief somehow is a forcing act upon others. Homosexuals are free to accept the message of God or reject it. Just as it was for me and as it is for you. But an expression of belief is not compulsion or force.

This doesn't answer my question. If a woman has leadership skills better than the men in her group, why not make her the leader? What's the logical reason not to do it?

No i have not given you an answer that would satisfy your logic. This is where trust in God is essential.

You don't need to have the same opinion with another person to respect it.I have many religious friends, and I respect their opinions. We never fight over religion nor do we ever argue about it. They keep it to themselves and I respect it and I keep it to myself and they respect it.

Then we have a different definition of the word Respect. This happens a lot. just like the word tolerance have been warped by modern culture over the centuries so to the word respect. Respect is honouring a concept or entity as true and correct. I only respect God and God alone. I love other people and hope for them. And for me keeping my faith to myself would be the ultimate form of hatred for the other person imaginable.

Why doesn't God just show up and end all those time consuming debates on which people are wasting so much of their time on?

Discussion about God can be a waste of time for some who are not open to God. But two people can engage in a discussion about God and one can be greatly blessed while the other can leave the discussion with nothing of worth. That happens a lot. As for God showing up well He did show up in the flesh as the Word of God and will come again when the number of those who will accept the Love of His truth has been fulfilled.

I wrote what I think about God. I don't know if some creating force exists, and if it does, it's a lot more wonderful than what we believe it to be. What I'm trying to understand by asking those questions is the stubbornness and closed-mindedness of religion and religious claims.

You might be mistaking a person’s trust in God as close mindedness. If one has trust in God and someone comes along and shares with them a philosophy or thought in conflict with the guidance of God then no amount of argument or persuasion will more them from the position they believe is the will of God. The only way i have seen a God trusting Christian moved from a position of faith is via showing that person that their position is wrong by revealing it using scriptures.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[IchBin]

If one has trust in God and someone comes along and shares with them a philosophy or thought in conflict with the guidance of God then no amount of argument or persuasion will more them from the position they believe is the will of God. The only way i have seen a God trusting Christian moved from a position of faith is via showing that person that their position is wrong by revealing it using scriptures.

This is exactly what I mean when I say stubbornness and closed-mindedness. Compare this to a truly open minded person, who would accept criticism of his beliefs and would be open to the possibility that what he believes in might not be true, and that there is another, more rational truth out there.

 

[lightgigantic]

This is exactly what I mean when I say stubbornness and closed-mindedness. Compare this to a truly open minded person, who would accept criticism of his beliefs and would be open to the possibility that what he believes in might not be true, and that there is another, more rational truth out there.

Oh, you mean like this?

I completely disagree with most of the things that have been said and I don't see how this discussion is anything but a waste of our time


:shrug: