On The Authenticity Of The English Bible

Dear newbie;

The point of an OP is to gather information, form an opinion, think about it then post your thoughts.

So many threads are started here with nothing but a link to an article or (even worse) a YouTube video.

I am glad you did the research on your own, now let's hear your thoughts on the issue.
 
You referred briefly to your "research". I provided links including an extremely relevant one indicating errors and internal contradictions in three "sacred texts" to support my position. It's called citing sources and is a normal part of making a reasoned argument. If you want people to take your position seriously, don't state opinions without evidence and snipe at those that do.
Get a frigging grip. If you are going to criticise, try to get your facts right.

jmpet made no claim to have posted any links in the opening post. jmpet said you had posted the exact same links (s)he had referenced. That's referenced as in this opening sentence: "Last night I surfed Wikipedia for several hours on The Bible old and new- not the religion but the history of the words through the centuries through today ."

jmpet had used Wikipedia as a reference. The meaning is as clear as day to me, but apparently in your haste to attack jmpet your perception was fogged. jmpets argument contains poorly reasoned arguments, questionable statements and foggy thinking. It would have served your purposes better to attack them.
 
In the context of an English translation of a Greek translation of a Hebrew translation of an Aramaic text, can someone tell me what the word 'Authentic' means?
 
In the context of an English translation of a Greek translation of a Hebrew translation of an Aramaic text, can someone tell me what the word 'Authentic' means?
With some variations voted on by committee no less... As they say, the Lord works in mysterious ways. :rolleyes:
 
I guess you gloosed over the OP and posted the exact same links I already referenced in the OP. Good going.

When you originally posted this, I took the "Good going" to be sarcasm. If it wasn't, I apologize for the tone of my subsequent postings.
 
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Apparently there is no definitive source for the bible- just a consensus of what scholars believe or have believed or have interpreted through the years.

There are lots of different English translations of the Bible. The first of them date back to medieval times.

For example, the King James version of the Bible- which I learned a great deal about. First published in 1611, based on 47 scholarly opinions and translated from Greek, Latin and Hebrew. What I found interesting is that no great single event happened in 1611- that was just the year they all got together and came up with one English version of The Bible.

The earlier translations had been criticized on various textual grounds, so King James commissioned the leading British scholars of his day to produce a better English language text. It was a major scholarly project of the time. They broke the Bible down into smaller segments and assigned them to different groups of scholars to translate, then they rotated the results, giving those finished translations to different teams to read and criticize.

There is nothing that makes this version more definitive or authoritive, it's just "the new version".

Or at least it was new in the early 17'th century. It subsequently became kind of old and traditional.

There have been many different English translations since then. Some of them tried to improve the translation from Greek and Hebrew into English so as to capture more of the original meanings of the words. Foreign words, especially those from ancient languages, can't always be substituted one-for-one with modern English words without adding many new connotations that weren't present in the original, while losing many other connotations that would have seemed obvious to ancient Hebrew and Greek language readers. Other subsequent translations tried to make the thing more readable, modernizing the English language used and removing the 17'th century archaisms. While those translations may have been slight improvements, and even big improvements in a few disputed spots, I think that the modern consensus is still that the KJV was a very good translation, by and large.

The Roman Catholics have their own version of The Bible as well.

Theirs comes to us by way of the medieval Latin Bible. The Hebrew and Greek text was translated into Latin in late antiquity.

As far as the New Testament texts themselves, they were written 30+ years after the event happened and written probably in Aramaic- all those books are now lost. At some point it was translated to Greek then to English, and we've been rewriting it ever since.

Jesus is thought to have probably spoken Aramaic. That was the day-to-day language in Palestine at the time. (Hebrew had become kind of a liturgical language by his date, but if Jesus was learned in the scriptures, then he'd probably learned some Hebrew too.) My understanding is that the consensus is that the New Testament was originally composed in koine Greek, which was the day-to-day language of the Jewish diaspora in the Hellenistic eastern Mediterranean outside Palestine. ('Koine' is the Hellenistic Greek dialect that came into wide use outside Greece after the time of Alexander.) Then it was subsequently translated into Syriac, the late version of Aramaic used in Syria and Palestine. Paul seems to have written his letters in Greek and probably preached in that language.

There's a vast literature on Biblical textual criticism. One of the problems with old texts is that printing presses didn't exist in ancient and medieval times. Books were laboriously copied by hand in dim candle-lit scriptoria, so over time, copying errors could find their way into texts and be reproduced by subsequent copyists. There's actually a whole science of ancient and medieval manuscripts of all sorts called paleography. As an example of what paleographers do, the presence of small copyist's errors in widely dispersed manuscripts can be used to define different textual families and then used to investigate the transmission and propagation of texts and larger patterns of intellectual influence. For example, if we know that a scribal error crept into a 10'th century Byzantine Greek text, and if that same textual error is later found in Balkan manuscripts and in southern Italy, then we have a pretty good idea who the Balkan and southern Italian copyists were in communication with and where they had obtained the texts they were copying.

It is comforting to find say, the Dead Sea Scrolls and see we're not that far off with the Old Testament and it'd be nice to one day find the New Testament's "Q Bible" from which the books draw information from.

The simularity of the Dead Sea Scrolls OT texts and the medieval Hebrew texts used in most of the earlier English Bible translations suggest that those medieval texts were probably pretty good, with only minor scribal errors and nothing in them that dramatically changed religious doctrine. And some New Testament texts from late antiquity have been discovered and used to make small corrections to the text in some of the newer English translations.

The 'Q' thing is an entirely different kind of problem in my opinion. It's not a simple question of manuscript transmission of received texts. With 'Q' we are facing new issues of editing, authorship and theological motivation.

The problem there is that our only knowledge of Jesus comes to us through the New Testament. And the NT is the product of Paul's churches and the Christian church that subsequently grew out of them and embraced the Pauline doctrines as orthodoxy. What we have today was written to preach those doctrines and that's why it was subsequently copied and preserved. The question is whether the NT accurately presents Jesus as he actually was or whether it kind of re-writes him to suit a theology.

The probable existence of an early 'Q' document (from the German word for 'source') suggests that there were already collections of Jesus' sayings in circulation in the broader Christian sect beyond Paul's churches. Unfortunately 'Q' hasn't survived. (The question arises, why not?) But we do have the later non-canonical Gospel of Thomas that seems to have been based on some earlier 'Q'-like collection of Jesus' sayings and contains significant differences from the four canonical gospels. Just based on evidence like that, there seems to have been quite a bit of internal diversity among the early Christians. There were apparently more than one of these 'sayings gospels' of Jesus' supposed words in circulation and there do seem to have been significant variations between them. It's apparent that lots of editing and redacting were going on in the earliest years of Christianity as the earliest texts that survive today were being composed. The situation might have been a lot more open and fluid then than it would become in later years. Unfortunately, very little information about those formative events has survived.
 
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As far as I can reason this out, there are only three possibilities.

1. God exists and he had something that he wanted to say to us. This means that we can trust that the Bible is accurate enough to convey his intended message. Certain subtleties may have been lost in translation here and there but as has already been pointed out there is enough redundancy to ensure that anyone who wants to figure it all out can do just that.

2. God exists but he's never had anything in particular to say to us. This means that the Bible and other similar works are at worst works of complete fiction and at best mans guess at what God would have said to us if he did have anything to say.

3. God doesn't exist.

In the end I really don't think that the translation problem factors into things in any significant way. If you're not of Christian faith, just do a mental search and replace on the word "Bible" and substitute with whatever holy book or group of religious texts you like. The logic is the same.
 
You would think the founding documents of a 2,000 year old organization would be more organized- that's all.
 
We can give Bible translators more credit than merely playing the child's game of Pass The Message. Serious translators go to great lengths to learn other languages in order to use ancient documents during the course of producing their translations.

Somewhat along the same lines, for Noah Webster to publish his prominent American Dictionary in 1828, he learned 26 languages, including Anglo-Saxon, German, Greek, Latin, Italian, Spanish, French, Hebrew, Arabic, and Sanskrit.
 
Read these if you think the bible is the "word of god":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

An omniscient, omnipotent, perfect god would have delivered a single, internally consistent document that would remain valid for all time. Reading the above links will convince any thinking person that the bible is a man-made document riddled with errors and inconsistencies. The same can be said of the Qur'an.
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M*W: You had me at "Read...".

Anything written by man is subject to human error. If a "holy" book is truly "inspired" by some deity, seems like the deity would make sure there are no ambiguities or misprints... and people continue to believe their deity is in control of their lives! Not! ROFLMAO
 
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M*W: You had me at "Read...".

Anything written by man is subject to human error. If a "holy" book is truly "inspired" by some deity, seems like the deity would make sure there are no ambiguities or misprints... and people continue to believe their deity is in control of their lives! Not! ROFLMAO

it wasn't that funny mw.

the deity does make sure that the message is intact. what do you think the holy spirit is for? people are living this message.

oh that's right...you thought that was what the pope was for. now that's funny.
 
...Would you pick one person and use his account and call it the truth? Or would you use all the data, knowing the truth was scattered among all the data?

I would guess, the people who compiled the first bible saw these inconsistencies, but to avoid the risk of eliminating any truth, they kept it all. Leave it for the future to figure it out the truth, by handing then all the data. This shows honest intent, rather than pretend perfection. A good scientist does not throw out the conflicting data to make his thesis look better.
No, they most certainly did not. Read Elaine Pagels on the history of the early church. The fact is there were many, gospels circulating at the time the New Testament was compiled. Some were gnostic in nature. They differed on many essential points of theology. Some were chosen and some were rejected in order to represent the theology that the first bishops desired.
 
it wasn't that funny mw.

the deity does make sure that the message is intact. what do you think the holy spirit is for? people are living this message.

oh that's right...you thought that was what the pope was for. now that's funny.
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M*W: Good point, Lori! If the deity's message was actually "intact," all people would share an unambiguous meaning (that is, all those who are god-created, I would assume). It's just that I had higher expectations of the deity and his PR guy. I would have at least had hopes that the holy spirit possessed some fair-to-middling editorial skills. That makes them both wrong. The odds for gods is not looking good.
 
Anything written by man is subject to human error. If a "holy" book is truly "inspired" by some deity, seems like the deity would make sure there are no ambiguities or misprints... and people continue to believe their deity is in control of their lives! Not! ROFLMAO

i do not believe god 'controls' me, i know he influences me.

and MW..to call you on your fopaw (i know,wrong spelling..)

you say you do not believe in god, yet you believe god is a controlling one,that we 'MUST' obey him or else..you have an idea of who God is supposed to be.
you may have answered this before.. did your religious upbringing include diverse types of churches or did your parents stay with a particular creed ?

I believe god created adam and eve with the ability to choose,(angels do not have this ability), he set up the apple to show adam and eve that they are/were capable of choosing( of disobeying).
i believe god is there wispering in our ears,(hard to hear sometimes.) letting us know what he wants,
we still have the ability to disobey god, to choose for ourselves.
Most church's/religions do not teach ppl how to think for themselves,they are more comfortable with sheep who do as they are told,this is where i believe religion is screwing up God, there are church's out there who do teach 'think for yourselves' which usually translates to 'be responsible for your own faith',
but they are rare..<sigh>
 
i wasn't referring to the book necessarily; i was referring to the message.

the spirit has taught me a lot of things through personal experience.

The exact nature of the message was crafted by the bishops of the early church, thus avoiding the message of at least one disciple (Mary) that resurrection was a personal spiritual revelation and instead was a literal one-time event.
 
The exact nature of the message was crafted by the bishops of the early church, thus avoiding the message of at least one disciple (Mary) that resurrection was a personal spiritual revelation and instead was a literal one-time event.

you're saying that mary's gospel states that the resurrection is a personal spiritual revelation, not a one-time event, and that the early "church" (and i'm using that term loosely here, most likely incorrectly but) decided to leave that out, and recognize it as only a one-time event?
 
Yes, and it has been suggested that this was because it would leave no authority to the bishops.
 
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