On Nothing in a void.

[Xelasnave.1947]

Well the title is a mere attention getter.
I want to discuss nothing in general rather than placing it in a void.
The subject of nothing often comes up and yet it could be argued that nothing does not in fact exist.
Some say before everything there was nothing, some say there is nothing on the outside of the universe, some say they have nothing to say rather than to say something.
I ask what is nothing? How should it be defined?
Can nothing exist and does it take up space?
Is there nothing in a void or is a void nothing.
Can you say something about nothing.
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

Well the title is a mere attention getter.
I want to discuss nothing in general rather than placing it in a void.
The subject of nothing often comes up and yet it could be argued that nothing does not in fact exist.
Some say before everything there was nothing, some say there is nothing on the outside of the universe, some say they have nothing to say rather than to say something.
I ask what is nothing? How should it be defined?
Can nothing exist and does it take up space?
Is there nothing in a void or is a void nothing.
Can you say something about nothing.
Alex

My fav brain twister.

Think you know my view but I will spell it out in this thread just for newcomers.

If there is absolutely nothing in existence I would posit you have a void of infinity or as I call it a Total Infinite Void.

Scientist speculate before the Big Bang space existed but popping in an out of this space were quantum fluctuations.

So the space was not my Total Infinite Void.

Might have been Total and Infinite but no no void.

However if you give a Total Infinite space with fluctuations a name does that bring it into existence?

Would the name be 'space with a varying number of quantum fluctuations'?

The quantum fluctuations were very short lived until one becomes the Big Bang.

They seek them here, they seek them there,
Those Scientist seek them everywhere.
Are they in heaven/hell or illusionations?
Those damned elusive fluctuations!

Sorry not as smooth as original.

Unfluctuating Humpty with not sure Poe

 

[exchemist]

Well the title is a mere attention getter.
I want to discuss nothing in general rather than placing it in a void.
The subject of nothing often comes up and yet it could be argued that nothing does not in fact exist.
Some say before everything there was nothing, some say there is nothing on the outside of the universe, some say they have nothing to say rather than to say something.
I ask what is nothing? How should it be defined?
Can nothing exist and does it take up space?
Is there nothing in a void or is a void nothing.
Can you say something about nothing.
Alex

It seems to me that "nothing" is the general counterpart, in logic, of the zero in mathematics.

Zero and nothing are abstract concepts with definite meaning, but because just logic and mathematics can express such concepts does not necessarily mean that they can be actually found anywhere in the physical world. Indeed one might argue that the uncertainty principle would tend to argue against such a thing - as Michael implies above.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

If there is nothing then there must be something.
Even in one of the known voids in the universe, one I recall near half a billion light years across, Bootes Void perhaps, we indeed find something because where there is nothing there must be something.

So it would seem where ever there is something it must be superimposed on nothing.

What does Humpty think about that?
You do know Humpty was a big gun once who fell from his wall in battle and was either too large and heavy for the kings horses and men to lift him back up to his position on the wall or alternatively was smashed beyond repair such that the kings men and specially trained horses skilled in canon repair could not put him back together.

If you consider the nothing in a void one realises that there is indeed a small part of everything passing by, so that nothing is made up of everything (or at least a small piece of everything).
Alex

 

[Beer w/Straw]

If there is nothing then there must be something.
Even in one of the known voids in the universe, one I recall near half a billion light years across, Bootes Void perhaps, we indeed find something because where there is nothing there must be something.

So it would seem where ever there is something it must be superimposed on nothing.

What does Humpty think about that?
You do know Humpty was a big gun once who fell from his wall in battle and was either too large and heavy for the kings horses and men to lift him back up to his position on the wall or alternatively was smashed beyond repair such that the kings men and specially trained horses skilled in canon repair could not put him back together.

If you consider the nothing in a void one realises that there is indeed a small part of everything passing by, so that nothing is made up of everything (or at least a small piece of everything).
Alex

Is this cosmology or philosophy?

I ask cause I really don't understand what you said.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Zero and nothing are abstract concepts with definite meaning,

Zero yes for sure but nothing I am not so sure. Dave pointed out in another thread that nothing was not a scientific term so perhaps we need to define nothing but that will get Humpty annoyed I believe.
What is nothing? How is nothing properly defined.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Is this cosmology or philosophy?

I decided to start this thread because Dave said elsewhere when nothing came up that it was not a scientific term and belonged in philosophy.
However Michael sees some application in cosmology but he seems to be thinking of a void and not thinking about nothing.
So this thread folk can talk about nothing and how we should treat nothing or indeed if nothing exists.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

However if you give a Total Infinite space with fluctuations a name does that bring it into existence?

This is an interesting observation in itself.
If we accept that reality is mind dependant, and this would seem the best way to approach the concept, then giving a name to anything must indeed bring it into our mind dependant reality although we are still able to qualify that the object we describe is or is not real.
However nothing does not seem to fit here.
Alex

 

[karenmansker]

'thing' seems to be the operative element. One may postulate NO-thing . . . . SOME-thing . . . . . EVERY-thing . . . . etc. The meaning of such terms depends primarily upon the context of mutually-agreed usage during (verbal) intercourse between two or more parties.

 

[geordief]

"Odysseus gave him more wine to drink and told him: "My name is Nobody!" "

http://www.greek-gods.info/greek-heroes/odysseus/myths/odysseus-polyphemus/

plus ça change

 

[Michael 345]

If there is nothing then there must be something.
Even in one of the known voids in the universe, one I recall near half a billion light years across, Bootes Void perhaps, we indeed find something because where there is nothing there must be something.

So it would seem where ever there is something it must be superimposed on nothing.

What does Humpty think about that?
You do know Humpty was a big gun once who fell from his wall in battle and was either too large and heavy for the kings horses and men to lift him back up to his position on the wall or alternatively was smashed beyond repair such that the kings men and specially trained horses skilled in canon repair could not put him back together.

If you consider the nothing in a void one realises that there is indeed a small part of everything passing by, so that nothing is made up of everything (or at least a small piece of everything).
Alex

Yes thanks. One of the things I became aware of was Humpty referred to a canon.

But I like Dumpty from Alice for his verbal stance on word meanings

Didn't know what Boötes void was and when I checked found another Humpty as per below.

HumptyDance

7/06/12 10:08am

"Given that the void is about 700 light-years from Earth" should read "Given that the void is about 700-million light-years from Earth"

From another section

And as blogger Michael Anissimov has noted, the Boötes void is probably the most perfect vacuum in space, the implications of which are worth considering.

and

The supervoid measures 250 million light-years in diameter, representing approximately 0.27% of the diameter of the observable universe, which itself is a daunting 93 billion light-years across. Its volume is estimated at 236,000 Mcp3, making it the largest known void in the Universe.

My comments

First consider nothing as a concept, not as a physical material item. Calling the concept of nothing NOTHING does not confer physicality on the concept. The name of the concept is mearly a hook to give language a means to exchange information.

My Total Infinite Void does not have a size as per the Boötes void. The Infinite in the title is the clue.

But that got me thinking in the opposite direction.

What would you consider to be the smallest cubic capacity deserving of the name nothing?

Thought bubble experiment.

You have a one cubic metre box (internal measurement), very strong construction. Attached to a outlet valve a very strong suction pump.

After running for long enough how much nothing would you consider you have in the box? For the sake of the experiment I am going to ignore nutrenos passing through.

For starters I would not say one cubic metre. Since you have created such a low pressure vacuum even a given strong box will have some atoms sucked off its walls.

My (I am claiming it) Total Infinite Void does not have sides (hint the Infinite in the title is a clue)

And as noted elsewhere scientist speculate quantum fluctuations are flitting in and out of existence.

So I contend even one ittsy bittsy tiny winey flit disqualifies a Total Infinite Void from the title.

 

[paddoboy]

It seems to me that "nothing" is the general counterpart, in logic, of the zero in mathematics.

Zero and nothing are abstract concepts with definite meaning, but because just logic and mathematics can express such concepts does not necessarily mean that they can be actually found anywhere in the physical world. Indeed one might argue that the uncertainty principle would tend to argue against such a thing - as Michael implies above.

That sorta makes sense....
I actually find "nothing" I mean no space, no time, no nothing! as hard to visualize as infinite.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

For the sake of the experiment I am going to ignore nutrenos passing through.

But you can not ignore them.
They are everywhere there are more of them to the cubic mtr than anything else and so to proceed without them I suggest takes us into a fantasy universe that does not exist at least on the inside and all the time we must rememberhere there is apparently no outside.
If there is an outside it can only be nothing and as there can be no nothing if we are still be observing something and we must still be inside.

My (I am claiming it) Total Infinite Void does not have sides (hint the Infinite in the title is a clue)

Are you talking about a large or small infinite, no matter I will proceed on the assumption you are only thinking of a small infinite...
If you place the universe within your smallish infinite void it would be so relatively small, in fact much smaller than we could measure we may as well say there is no universe as it smallness could not be measured.
And it gets worse if we use a bigger infinite void.
What if there are more infinite voids than just one?
But of course infinite can not be qualified as large or small for as you said no sides, and let me add, not top or bottom and presumably no start in time and no ending in time.
If placed in such a void we ,the universe, could expand into it , the infinite void,for ever and yet not make even a small impression.

But such a void will have no neutrinos, electrons etc one could think because if there is anything then that must be part of our universe so finally this void must be nothing which I suggest can not exist.

And as noted elsewhere scientist speculate quantum fluctuations are flitting in and out of existence.

We should not degrade our observations with the introduction of such speculation.. there is no reason to expect any activity and until there is some evidence we should not admit anything for to include even one speculation means we may include all and any speculation and one can only guess at what we could start to include as part of our void which is of itself highly speculative.

So I contend even one ittsy bittsy tiny winey flit disqualifies a Total Infinite Void from the title.

Although I am not entirely comfortable with your methodology I am inclined to support your conclusions but must point out you have arrived at nothing.
Well done, extend my congratulations to the rest of your team.
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

But you can not ignore them.

I am just for the sake of the argument.

I'll put them back after.

If there is nothing then there must be something.

I would take issue with must. No must about it. The concept of nothing can stand alone and does not conjure up something.

...,takes us into a fantasy universe that does not exist at least on the inside and all the time we must remember here there is apparently no outside.

Remember my Total Infinite Void does not have our Universe inside it.

And it gets worse if we use a bigger infinite void.
What if there are more infinite voids than just one?

No such animal as a bigger Infinite (or smaller etc)

plus

One Infinite would exclude other Infinites

.....until there is some evidence we should not admit anything for to include even one speculation.....

I have no problem with a gazillion speculations. One of them might just stumble on an idea which could be fleshed out.

Poe, Humpty and my humble self Michael thank you for greeting us at the doorway of nothing.

Now we need to rest before we set out to the find the end of Infinite to meet our good friend Buzz Lightyear.

We have some supplies for him as in his words 'To Infinite and beyond'.

Humpty Dumpty with Poe and Michael enjoying the rest.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I would take issue with must. No must about it. The concept of nothing can stand alone and does not conjure up something.

You may have something there we need to make some observations to test my hypothesis.

Remember my Total Infinite Void does not have our Universe inside it.

I forgot where you left it.

One Infinite would exclude other Infinites

What if you took half of that infinite away would there be room then?

I have no problem with a gazillion speculations.

I suppose if we are dealing with infinite then any speculation may be possible or would it still be bound by the same laws through out.
Could it be if there is a separation of zillions of light years to the power of eleventy three billion that even the laws of nature could vary?
Again we need observations.
I also am tired I like to have a nap between my naps.
And there is a man working on the road outside which I find most exhausting just listening to his machine.
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

I forgot where you left it.

You need more than a nap between naps my friend.

Few ton of fish for memory food might help recovery of neurones

Reason why our Universe not inside my Total Infinite Void - it does not exist. And to nip a possible retort it is not outside my Total Infinite Void my Total Infinite Void does not have a outside.

Not hidden in a corner, under the kitty litter, in the laundry hamper.

What if you took half of that infinite away would there be room then?

Sorry I don't have any doors, windows, chimney, cat/dog flap or other type exit/entry to go outside (which incidentally I might have mentioned does not exist).

Not even a Star Trek transporter machine.

Plus not sure how to cut nothing in half.

Would filling in half of of Infinite count?

Where is the local Bunnings for a wheelbarrow and a landscape soil provider?

would it still be bound by the same laws through out

I am not a fan of the laws of physics varying between sections of Infinite.

More of a one size good enough for all of it.

Humpty Dumpty going for nap while Poe waits for Bunnings to deliver wheelbarrow to begin filling.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Few ton of fish for memory food might help recovery of neurones

I have heard such but I seem to forget picking up fish I look at them they look back and I buy prawns.
I think the damage is done.
I like cage fights.
I have many fights on DVD.
After say six moths I can watch them again because I have forgotten who won.
So it is handy.

Would filling in half of of Infinite count?

You could try.
I find the concept of infinite most interesting.
It seems it can not be acted upon by maths.
Addition, subtraction, division multiplication all yield infinite.


Alex

 

[kx000]

Evil is to no good, as blank is to nothing.
Evil, and suffering are nihilistic traits.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Well the title is a mere attention getter.
I want to discuss nothing in general rather than placing it in a void.
The subject of nothing often comes up and yet it could be argued that nothing does not in fact exist.
Some say before everything there was nothing, some say there is nothing on the outside of the universe, some say they have nothing to say rather than to say something.
I ask what is nothing? How should it be defined?
Can nothing exist and does it take up space?
Is there nothing in a void or is a void nothing.
Can you say something about nothing.
Alex

Nothing exists because of something, just like zero exists only in relation to one.

Jan.

 

[Michael 345]

Nothing exists because of something, just like zero exists only in relation to one.

Jan.

Have a tendency to disagree.

With good and evil as an example there is a range between the two and any point along the range can be considered both good and evil at the same point.

With NOTHING there is no confusion. You have NOTHING or SOMETHING.

Can't have a little tiny bit of SOMETHING.

But SOMETHING does not imply NOTHING just as NOTHING does not imply SOMETHING.

Thinking 'I have a handful of NOTHING therefore there must be a handful of SOMETHING around here'.

Humpty who wishes for something at this time of of year.
Poe who never has anything.