On freedom of expression and religious defamation

So it's all about you?

Ultimately, it is.

My ethics are completely about me.

If I treat people in a certain way or if I don't, its because of what I cannot compromise with or what is against my own personal sense of justice.

I had this discussion with a friend yesterday on "playing the system" and it reminded me of what my father said to me when I was very young. He said that there are many ways to live in this world. The only thing in the way is the point at which you do not want to compromise. Its never the fault of the system, its the fault of the people who are willing to play it.
 
What about good faith and malice? What respect does anyone owe someone who goes out of their way to be violative and denigrating?
No respect at all.
Ignoring them is not respecting them. In fact, it's the opposite.

Oh, right. Just be the better person and shut the hell up. Whatever it takes to empower those who seek to hurt.
Ignoring them doesn't empower them, it does the total opposite. How did you come to the conclusion that it does?
Say that I went off on you and called you all kinds of shit; every bad word in the book. That's a bad reflection on me. How would you react to it? Would you be like, 'eh whatever, that's your opinion.' Or would you lose it and go off on me right back?
If you say the latter, then that makes you no better than the person that insulted you. Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
Tear shit up

Sowhatifit'sdark said:

It was threats of violence that put it over the edge for me.

Government is legitimized by coercive force. The threat of violence is simply farther removed when a group of religious zealots compel the government to extort money from an offender such as happens in the United States.

It's hard for me to say we're doing any better on our side of the Pond. After all, what the world really needs right now is for the American people to go out in the streets and tear shit up until our government quits its grand crusade in the Middle East. And then we need to tear some shit up until the government stops supporting corporate exploitation of humanity around the world. And then we should probably tear some shit up just to remind the property developers and architects how ugly their shit has gotten in recent years. At that point, if the rest of the corporate overlords aren't absolutely terrified of what we'll do next if they don't clean up their shit, we ought to tear up some more.

Thankfully, there's a major election coming up. Let's see what the people do, and what the politicians they elect will do. And if things don't get better, we need to figure out what to smash or flip over or set on fire first.

• • •​

Mikenostic said:

Ignoring them doesn't empower them, it does the total opposite. How did you come to the conclusion that it does?
Say that I went off on you and called you all kinds of shit; every bad word in the book. That's a bad reflection on me. How would you react to it? Would you be like, 'eh whatever, that's your opinion.' Or would you lose it and go off on me right back?
If you say the latter, then that makes you no better than the person that insulted you. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So someone gets in your face and verbally abuses you. You turn and walk away. They get around in front of you and get in your face again. You turn and walk away. They get around in front of you again. You turn and walk away. You've just walked fifty feet, and you're standing exactly where you were when they first started yelling at you.

Congratulations. You're making progress.

How many circles do you make before you attempt to break the cycle? By your standard, anything less than infinity or your own death means you're a bad person.

• • •​

S.A.M. said:

Ultimately, it is.

My ethics are completely about me.

If I treat people in a certain way or if I don't, its because of what I cannot compromise with or what is against my own personal sense of justice.

Well, at least you know better than to ever wonder at the state of things, right?
 
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I don't let barking dogs bother me. :p
That's good to know. I wish there were more representatives of Islam out there like you.

But it bothers me when people misrepresent what I believe for their own political ends. It also bothers me because there are already two countries destroyed due to people like that using religious rhetoric to pursue political ends. It bothers me because it will lead to more persecution of and discrimination against Muslims since people will just blindly believe what the movie will protray and finally it bothers me because maybe people will die because of one mans hate filled soul.
I agree. This is a two way street. You have the bad apples on both sides that fuel the fire and anger.


It's hard for me to say we're doing any better on our side of the Pond. After all, what the world really needs right now is for the American people to go out in the streets and tear shit up until our government quits its grand crusade in the Middle East. And then we need to tear some shit up until the government stops supporting corporate exploitation of humanity around the world. And then we should probably tear some shit up just to remind the property developers and architects how ugly their shit has gotten in recent years. At that point, if the rest of the corporate overlords aren't absolutely terrified of what we'll do next if they don't clean up their shit, we ought to tear up some more.
I wish there was a more effective way that us Americans could smack some common sense into our government. Hopefully with Dubya and his cronies leaving soon, it will get at least a little bit better.
 
Well, at least you know better than to ever wonder at the state of things, right?

In what way?

My idea of justice is do unto others, etc. Equivalence. If I treat someone badly, I'm not expecting roses.

But in the reverse, its my personal sense of justice that applies.

If someone treats me badly, I have the power to decide how I reciprocate.
 
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This species has amused itself to death

Mikenostic said:

I wish there was a more effective way that us Americans could smack some common sense into our government

I hope there is. I think there is. But it's going to take a mighty effort on behalf of a strong majority of the people, and therein lies the doubt.

• • •​

S.A.M. said:

In what way?

As long as it's ultimately about each individual, what we see is the way things are going to go.

I work every day to redefine portions of my own personal sense of justice so that they are about something far greater than myself. I don't always succeed, but if I don't at least try, I will condemn myself to being just another selfish enabler of humanity's demise.

Roger Waters, "Amused to Death"

Doctor, Doctor, what is wrong with me?
This supermarket life is getting long.
What is the heart life of a colour TV?
What is the shelf life of a teenage queen?

Ooh, western woman,
Ooh, western girl.

News hound sniffs the air
When Jessica Hahn goes down;
He latches on to that symbol
Of detachment.
Attracted by the peeling away of feeling,
The celebrity of the abused shell, the belle.

Ooh, western woman.
Ooh, western girl.

And the children of Melrose
Strut their stuff;
Is absolute zero cool enough?
And out in the valley, warm and clean,
The little ones sit by their TV screens.
No thoughts to think.
No tears to cry.

All sucked dry,
Down to the very last breath.
"Bartender, what is wrong with me?
Why I am so out of breath?"
The Captain said, "Excuse me, ma'am,
This species has amused itself to death."
Amused itself to death.
Amused itself to death.

We watched the tragedy unfold.
We did as we were told,
We bought and sold;
It was the greatest show on earth!
But then it was over.
We oohed and aahed,
We drove our racing cars,
We ate our last few jars of caviar.
And somewhere out there in the stars,
A keen-eyed look-out
Spied a flickering light:
Our last hurrah!
Our last hurrah!

And when they found our shadows
Groups 'round the TV sets,
They ran down every lead,
They repeated every test.
They checked out all the data in their lists,
And then the alien anthropologists
Admitted they were still perplexed.
But on eliminating every other reason
For our sad demise,
They logged the only explanation left:
This species has amused itself to death!

No tears to cry.
No feelings left.
This species has amused itself to death.
Amused itself to death.
 
As long as it's ultimately about each individual, what we see is the way things are going to go.

I work every day to redefine portions of my own personal sense of justice so that they are about something far greater than myself. I don't always succeed, but if I don't at least try, I will condemn myself to being just another selfish enabler of humanity's demise.

Ah I see. I'm different. For me, its all about myself. If I am uncomfortable, I don't do it. If it makes me mad, its because it offends me. If I feel its unjust, its because it would be unjust if it was done to me.

Which is why people with a value system different from mine will be subjected by me to my value system rather than their own or that of the "greater good". The greater good could involve decisions and judgments that I am not prepared to take, compromises I am unwilling to make.

All I can go on is my personal meter of right and wrong. Its why I can't play the system.
 
So someone gets in your face and verbally abuses you. You turn and walk away. They get around in front of you and get in your face again. You turn and walk away. They get around in front of you again. You turn and walk away. You've just walked fifty feet, and you're standing exactly where you were when they first started yelling at you.

That's slightly different than what I meant. Physically getting in someone's way is a bit different that just insulting someone in passing.
If someone gets in my face, I'll just sidestep them and go around them. If they sidestep to get back in my way, I'll sidestep one more time. If they sidestep and get in my way again, I will then push them out of my way(probably quite rudely and forcefully). And if they decide to physically react, they will wish they hadn't said one word to me to begin with. I made two concerted efforts to deescalate a situation, and gave them two chances to leave me alone before I did something.
By them physically getting in my way repeatedly, that goes beyond insulting.
I can stand there in front of you face to face and say all I want. That's not infringing on your rights, but as soon as I lay a hand on you, or phyisically impede your progress, that IS infringing on your rights. You then have a right to defend yourself. If I call you a bad name, and you push or punch me for it, then you infringed on my rights and I then have a right to defend myself.
If I call you names/insult you, you have the right to verbally insult me back. But as long as an altercation like that stays verbal, why not take the high road and just ignore it?
 
Do they still allow priests to stand and protest at the funerals of gay soldiers?
 
Do they still allow priests to stand and protest at the funerals of gay soldiers?

You mean like this one?
http://somd.com/news/headlines/2007/5419.shtml

Since the article is VERY vague about what the protestors were doing to disrupt the funeral, I can't make a sound judgement. If they were just on the sidelines with their signs, then they have a right to protest what they want. Now, if they were in the street protesting, impeding the progress of the funeral, otherwise getting in the way, or being so loud that they are disrupting the eulogy or otherwise harrassing them, then I see that as a problem.
On a side note, dumbass protestors like that give Christianity a bad name.

But apparently the protestors are getting to the point where:
article said:
Southern Poverty Law Center has classified Westboro Baptist Church as a hate group, and the Anti-Defamation League keeps tabs on the organization

Now this is for you Tiassa, the Rider Guard who has volunteered to help the families of the fallen servicemembers even take a peaceful stance:

The Guard Riders were indifferent to the protesters, they said.

"They're insignificant," said Russell Burks, a Hartford County Patriot Guard Ride Captain and chaplain, about the protesters.

"We don't pay any attention to them. It's mind over matter. We don't mind. So they don't matter. We don't argue with them. We don't talk to them. This young lady perished to give them the right to do what they're doing."
This is EXACTLY what I mean by taking the high road.
 
And this?

On February 4th, in a decision spanning over fifty pages, US District Judge Richard D. Bennett reduced the amount of damages that an anti-gay group based in Kansas, and three of its leading members, had to pay as a result of their protest at a marine’s funeral in Westminster.

Albert Synder, father of the deceased Lance Cpl. Matthew Synder, had successfully sued the Westboro Baptist Church for undue emotional distress and invasion of the family’s privacy during the funeral, during which the church members waved signs decrying his son’s homosexuality. Judge Bennett affirmed the jury’s decision in favour of Mr Synder, saying “There was more than sufficient evidence to support the jury’s verdict that [Westboro’s] conduct before, during and after the funeral of Matthew Snyder was outrageous … [and] highly offensive to a reasonable person”.

However he then went on to half the initial $10.9 million award, citing ‘constitutional concerns of appropriateness’. Bennett continued, saying that he’d had to weigh up the suffering of Mr Synder against the amount of money the Westboro Church could feasibly finance.

How come no one cites freedom of expression here?
 
I'm not sure what you mean, because I'm not sure how you are interpreting that article. Can you elaborate?

I'm applying freedom of expression as a statute. Who exactly has freedom of expression? Who can defame religion and is not covered by it?

How does one define highly offensive?

Its why I wanted to see the judements passed by the ECHR.
 
Today prosecutions for blasphemy are rare and following 50 years of desuetude, the offence was revived in Whitehouse ‘v’ Lemon (1979) in which the defendants were the publishers ‘Gay News,’ a magazine intended primarily for a homosexual readership. The case arose when they published an illustrated poem which purported to describe in explicit detail various homosexual acts with the body of Christ. They were charged with blasphemous libel as it was alleged that this was an “obscene poem and illustration vilifying Christ in his life and crucifixion,” which had outraged the religious sensibilities of the applicant who was a Christian. The trial judge directed the jury that in order to secure a conviction it was sufficient that a publication vilified Christ and it was not necessary to prove an intention other than an intention to publish that which in the jury’s view constituted blasphemy. The defendants were convicted but appealed to the Court of Appeal contending that a subjective intent to shock and arouse resentment among Christians had to be proved. The appeal was dismissed and later confirmed by the House of Lords confirmed the trial judges direction.

The consequence of rejecting the more expansive definition of the mens rea is that the reach of the offence has been widened since the mens rea is now easier to satisfy. Therefore this may have some effect of restricting freedom of expression with a greater amount of religious expression liable for prosecution as the offence is now more inclined to capture within its ambit those who would have been otherwise excluded if they had not had the intention to cause shock and outrage among Christians. Lord Edmund Davies, who dissented, acknowledged this, contending that promoting freedom of expression should push the courts towards accepting the more expansive definition. However the majority judgment rather than addressing the manner in which blasphemy laws interfered with freedom of expression, turned upon this narrow question of law relating to the mens rea [sic-SG]

In this sense it can be seen that the law on blasphemy restricts freedom of expression. It is argued by liberals that the common law in a modern, multi faith and largely secular society should find no place for an offence of blasphemy as it restricts debate about religious matters and advancement of new ideas. It penalises the expression of opinions merely on the ground that some people find the opinions, or the manner in which they are expressed, objectionable.

However, the view that the offence violates freedom of expression was not accepted by the European Court of Human Rights, when Lemon made an application to Strasbourg in Gay News ‘v’ UK (1982) on these grounds. The ECHR held that the application was manifestly ill founded since the conviction was a proportionate measure to protect the religious sensibilities of others.

http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/5188.php
 
It's hard for me to say we're doing any better on our side of the Pond.
I am not sure who the 'we' you are referring to is. In any case, one side's immoral actions do not justify the immoral actions of the other side to third parties. And most of 'us' are third parties. As are most of 'them'. I notice you being critical of 'your' governement for its actions. I notice myself doing the same things.

SAM has mentioned he atrocities connected with several American run prisons. Where does the CIA go when it wants to torture prisoners in the old, tried and true direct approach: Syria, Egypt...etc. Why? torture is just daily practice there. No need for the leaders to come out in favor of wishy washy washboarding. What about the regular torture of prisoners by Indian police? And so on. Where is the outrage over this?

The bullies run around pointing fingers at the other bullies and the crowds sing the songs they are told to sing.

As if we must identify with one bully and sling our hate at the other ones.
 
(This happened in the UK)

...However Lord Scarmans’s enthusiasm for extending the offence to protect non-Christians was not reflected by the courts in the recent case of R ‘v’ Chief Metropolitan Magistrate ex parte Choudhury (1991) which concerned a Muslim who sought judicial review of the Magistrates refusal to issue summons for blasphemy against Salman Rushdie in connection with his book ‘the Satanic Verses’ which purported to insult the Islamic religion, on the grounds that law of blasphemy was confined to the protection of the Christian religion. The application was dismissed by the QBD who confirmed, “We have no doubt that as the law now stands it does not extend to religions other than Christianity.” Moreover it stated that it was outside its powers to extend the law “to cover religions other than Christianity” since the “function of Parliament alone can change the law.” Even if it had not been bound, the court considered that it would have been unwilling to initiate an extension since not only “would (it) be impossible by judicial decision to set clear limits to the offence,” if the judiciary did take this step, it would essentially mean overturning centuries of precedents and it is unlikely that any court will be willing to do this.

The applicant’s subsequent application to the ECHR, claiming that this was a contravention of freedom of religion under Article 9 was rejected on the grounds that the convention does not compel freedom for adherents of any religion to bring legal proceedings in respect of scurrilous abuse and thus does not require creation of a law of blasphemy to protect Islam.

It was contended that, in fact, what the applicant was attempting to do was interfere with Mr Rushdie’s right to freedom of expression,” as there were no grounds to bring Mr Rushdie, within one of the exceptions in Article 10(2) which “requires the existence of a pressing social need for an interferences with free speech for one of these purposes” i.e. restricting his expression was not “in the interests of national security, public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, or protection of health or morals.”
 
And yet Americans are the masters of Political Correctness!
You're joking. Just in my own lifetime that title would have gone to the USSR, the Third Reich, or what we used to call Red China. Our media abound with "heretical" articles about global warming and other politically correct issues, and even about political correctness itself.
Once again, I feel that flag burning is a stark overreaction. Burning a country's flag for what an independent newspaper did is immature. That would be equivalent to say, a person gets fired from a job, then that person goes and burns that company's building down.
Good grief dude! A flag is just a frelling symbol. At least here, people who burn flags as a political statement provide their own and get them for two bucks at Wal-Mart. (Made in China of course.) They're not even destroying somebody else's property. Burning a flag is "symbolic speech." It's nothing at all like destroying someone's home or business. Get a grip! Complaining about somebody burning your flag is like complaining about somebody spitting on your bible. Sure you get to be angry and you can even yell at them and call them nasty names, but when that's all over you just have to let it go.
My ethics are completely about me.
Deep down inside you are a Mesolithic pack-social creature like all of us. Your ethics are about the good of the pack because you cannot survive without them. We have successfully stretched our definition of "pack" to include ever-larger communities. But regardless of how far along a person is in that social evolution that we call "civilization," everyone has the instinct to trust and care about his pack. Only sociopaths lack it and I'm pretty sure you're not a sociopath.

Therefore your ethics are almost certainly about your community and are not egocentric.
Which is why people with a value system different from mine will be subjected by me to my value system rather than their own or that of the "greater good".
That's the problem with the Golden Rule. We need to do unto others as they would have done unto themselves, not as we would have done unto ourselves.
The greater good could involve decisions and judgments that I am not prepared to take, compromises I am unwilling to make. All I can go on is my personal meter of right and wrong. Its why I can't play the system.
And of course that's the problem with the civilization-updated redefinition of the Golden Rule. What if treating another person the way he wants to be treated conflicts with your own standard of how you want to be treated? What if a fundamentalist Christian literally cannot be comfortable and content if anyone living within a thousand miles of him is openly gay? What if it is a violation of his religion to not constantly proselytize it to others, even if the proselytism makes them miserable? I'm struggling to come up with an example that doesn't bash religion... Okay, what if an immigrant from the Philippines finds dog meat to be the absolute tastiest food in the world and he is miserable without it, and furthermore he gains the respect of his fellows by being able to serve dog meat at the church picnic, but the smell of dog meat makes everyone else in the city throw up and the mere awareness of it makes them weep?

Who gets to decide these conflicts? You can't just say, "I always do what I think is right." That's not the way communities work.
I'm applying freedom of expression as a statute. Who exactly has freedom of expression?
I think this is the post about the priests disrupting the funeral of a gay soldier. As far as I'm concerned, if you hold a funeral in a public place like a cemetery, then the rules of expression in public places prevail. No hate speech if it's not a Nazi rally, no shouting if it's not a bunch of kids acting crazy, but a peaceful expression should be allowed. If it's inside a church then the churches can make their own rules.

Next time a redneck priest dies, get all of your gay friends to dress up in their most outlandish outfits and go attend his funeral. America is just so not about decorum. :)
 
SAM has mentioned he atrocities connected with several American run prisons. Where does the CIA go when it wants to torture prisoners in the old, tried and true direct approach: Syria, Egypt...etc. Why? torture is just daily practice there. No need for the leaders to come out in favor of wishy washy washboarding. What about the regular torture of prisoners by Indian police? And so on. Where is the outrage over this?

So its okay for the American government to practice torture if they outsource it?
 
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