Ok So Some People Do Not Believe In God..............

Agent51

Registered Member
Ok so some people dont believe in God..........

THATS YOUR RIGHT.....BUT WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS???...I DONT ARGUE THE BIBLE BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT. I DO NOT PUT ANY ONE DOWN FOR ANYTHING THAT THEY DO SIMPLY BECAUSE IM NOT PERFECT AND IVE DONE ALOT OF WHAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS MAYBE EVEN
MORE....WHICH I GUESS IS WHY I BELIEVE IN HIM,CAUSE I KNOW WHAT TYPE OF PERSON I WAS BEFORE I ACCEPTED HIM AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I AM NOW.....AND THE FACT THAT WHEN I DO WRONG I CAN SEE AND FEEL THE WRONG I DO THEREFORE ALLOWING ME TO ASK HIM FOR FORGIVENESS.....THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY COME DOWN TO ONE VERSE AS A SUMMATION.....JOHN 3:16............................YOU KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH,FAMOUS,OR JUST HAVE EVERYTHING THAT THIS
WORLD CAN OFFER BUT DEEP INSIDE THEY ARE MISERABLE,LONELY,SCARED AND THEIR LIVES ARE EMPTY AND ITS ALL BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE CHRIST IN THEIR HEARTS ,CAUSE HE IS WHAT MAKES US COMPLETE.....WE NEED ONLY TO ACCEPT THE GIFT HE OFFERS US THRU SALVATION....WHICH CAN BE FOUND BY ASKING,SIMPLY ASKING.FROM THERE IT IS IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW UP BY READING HIS WORD WHICH GUIDES US...ITS THAT SIMPLE......FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THIS IS FICTION,THATS OK THATS
YOUR OPINION, BUT MAYBE SOMEONE OUT THERE WOULD LIKE TO GIVE JESUS A TRY IF SO,READ JOHN 3: 16 AND JUST THINK ON WHAT IT OFFERS.....MY HOPE IS THAT MAYBE IT WOULD HELP SOMEONE....THNX
 
Mmmkay.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Aww come on, Agent51, aren't you going to threaten us with fire and brimstone? I thought you'd cite John 3:36..... That's more fun. :D

Seriously, I don't feel that you are weak minded. Perhaps some people turn to religion out of weakness, but many do not. However, I do feel that belief is irrational, and that blind faith is dangerous.
 

Agent, I would throw your argument right back at ya.

I would never condemn anyone for any religious belief that they have. If I object it's when those 'believers' shove their philosphies at me like I don't have any better ideas and I need to be 'saved'..
My personal tak is that people 'find' jesus as a catalyst to elaborate between basic right and wrong, which is what I feel you are describing in your post about your own experience.

Some of the bibles teachings are good common sense, maybe even the basis for some aspects of common sense however other teachings either contradict themselves or are just plain dumb.

If you find 'enlightenment' the first thing you want to do is share it and that's fine. If you find those who refuse to share then just accept and shut the fuck up. Move on. Get another agenda or find another person willing to listen.

It's those religious people who refuse to listen to those of us who refuse to listen who are a pain in the arse.

Enjoy your faith in your higher power and leaved me to enjoy mine.
Know what I mean
 
Agent51,

I have a simple question for you - John 3:16 first -

…. that he gave his only begotten Son…
When you give something that you value very highly to help someone else it can be very emotional. The emotion comes from the belief that you will never see that item again. John 3:16 is deliberately playing on your emotions, and is a typical ploy when targeting new recruits to Christianity.

My question is – what did God give up? Jesus is a God and is hence immortal – he cannot die and God would know this since they are both omniscient (perfect knowledge of all events past, present and future). In effect God gave nothing.

John 3:16 only has value if God gave up someone he loved in the same way that you might give up your child if you had one. But Christianity claims that Jesus lives.

So John 3:16 is meaningless.

Cris
 
Agent51,

BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT.
If you really do have evidence for the existence of a god then please do present it. People have been trying for thousands of years and no one has managed it yet.

For those that insist on believing in a god they must rest their beliefs not on evidence, for which there is none, but on faith.

But faith is nothing special, despite what religious teachers might say. Faith is nothing more than believing something where there is no evidence.

And no, the matter does not come down to whether you believe or not. For those that believe truth is based on real evidence and proofs then belief is not possible without such evidence. IOW people who don’t believe do so because there is no proof.

People who do believe have no evidential basis for their beliefs, they believe without reason, or outside of reason, and that is known as irrationality, or illogical.

So –

WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS???
Specifically because it can be shown you are unable to think logically, as I have explained above.

Cris
 
"BUT WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS???"

1) I believe in freedom of speech. So I'll say whatever the fuck I want, thank you very much.

2) Where did I say this? Or any of us? I thought you'd only been here like 6 hours?

3) Many people who believe in religion, regardless of whether or not it's true, believe solely because it makes them feel better. Some people believe life is better with the promise of an afterlife and some sort of meaning to life. This need for a higher being is a weakness. And note, I did not say all religious people. Look at Nelson for a while. When we argue that love is just an emotion he argues back that love must be something much more mystical. Why? Because he feels better if it is. Regardless of whether or not he is right, he believes what he does because he wants to. This is a weakness.


"I DONT ARGUE THE BIBLE BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT"

Please, if you have said evidence, present it. You can bet I will debate it, but if it's actually proof of God I will likely name you the greatest genius on earth. That is, if you really are only 13...


"WHICH I GUESS IS WHY I BELIEVE IN HIM,CAUSE I KNOW WHAT TYPE OF PERSON I WAS BEFORE I ACCEPTED HIM AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I AM NOW"

That's right. Religion changes people. Some people need religion to be a good human being. Therefore, religion is a crutch.

Secondly, you're 13, you have no idea just how little you have experienced life. I'm 16 and I would say the same about myself.


"YOU KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH,FAMOUS,OR JUST HAVE EVERYTHING THAT THIS
WORLD CAN OFFER BUT DEEP INSIDE THEY ARE MISERABLE,LONELY,SCARED AND THEIR LIVES ARE EMPTY AND ITS ALL BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE CHRIST IN THEIR HEARTS"

Do you know these people? Who is it? I'm a little curios so could ya' tell me who they are? I'd also like to know how you got in contact with them? Is it Alec Baldwin? It's Alec Baldwin, isn't it?
Alright enough jokes.

How about me? I love life. I'm very content with life. At one point, I was quite suicidal. It wasn't Christ though that got me out of that funk. It was myself. Right now I am neither miserable, lonely or scared or empty. In fact, I'm happy, friend-filled, adventerous and quite full. And all because of me and my friends, not Christ.


"CAUSE HE IS WHAT MAKES US COMPLETE"

Thank you. I'm glad you can tell me what completes me. I'm glad you know me that well. Jackass.

He is what makes YOU complete.

To be perfectly honest, I'd say masturbation is what makes me complete. :D


"NEED ONLY TO ACCEPT THE GIFT HE OFFERS US THRU SALVATION"

So what you're saying is that there's some higher being that cannnot be disproved that offers me eternal happiness in return for nothin? Wow. And that doesn't sound like a scam? haha.


"MY HOPE IS THAT MAYBE IT WOULD HELP SOMEONE"

Ah, the hyporcrit in you flourishes, young one. You act as if it is wrong for an atheist to call down a xtian, yet you come back and say that all of us need help and are "miserable, lonely, scared and empty" and you are hte one to help us.
 
Hello, and welcome! I don't know if you've posted here before, but this is the first time I've seen you here, so: Greetings!

Now, on to your post...

Ok so some people dont believe in God..........
THATS YOUR RIGHT.....BUT WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS???...I DONT ARGUE THE BIBLE BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT.

Ok, firstly- Cap's button is not your friend.

Secondly- I don't put down anyone who has faith. I understand that some people have their reasons for having a belief in a diety, and I don't mind that. You can believe in whatever God(dess) you want, I don't mind.

The only time I do mind is when you denounce me for disagreeing with you.

I don't think anyone is "weak-minded"- accept those who use demean other people to make themselves feel better or justified. If your going to tell me I'm wrong, prove me wrong- with what we're debating, and not how you feel I'm inferior to you.

Thirdly, if you have evidence of the bible's truth, then please...do prove us wrong.

MORE....WHICH I GUESS IS WHY I BELIEVE IN HIM,CAUSE I KNOW WHAT TYPE OF PERSON I WAS BEFORE I ACCEPTED HIM AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I AM NOW.....AND THE FACT THAT WHEN I DO WRONG I CAN SEE AND FEEL THE WRONG I DO THEREFORE ALLOWING ME TO ASK HIM FOR FORGIVENESS.....THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY COME DOWN TO ONE VERSE AS A SUMMATION.....JOHN 3:16............................

Ok, I'm getting the feeling you implying that people who do not believe in God are incapable of judging themselves morally. I assure you, this is not the case.

Also, I would have to echo Cris here- God was the one who punished us, so to forgive us(him?) he sacrifice his son(whatever that is) for a seemingly meaningless purpose. The sacrifice was un-needed, and shouldn't have even been there to begin with, because God should have forgiven us at the beginning. ( Or had a abortion, and start over.) And this time, acually destory Satan, so God can't let him ruin us again!

YOU KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH,FAMOUS,OR JUST HAVE EVERYTHING THAT THIS WORLD CAN OFFER BUT DEEP INSIDE THEY ARE MISERABLE,LONELY,SCARED AND THEIR LIVES ARE EMPTY AND ITS ALL BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE CHRIST IN THEIR HEARTS ,CAUSE HE IS WHAT MAKES US COMPLETE.....WE NEED ONLY TO ACCEPT THE GIFT HE OFFERS US THRU SALVATION....WHICH CAN BE FOUND BY ASKING,SIMPLY ASKING.

Once again, the prominant position that athiests are bitter, unhappy, cold people. Not only is this bigotry, but flat out ignorance. Do you know me personnally? Do you know what I think and feel? I don't think you do, so I submit that it's hauty and pretentious to assume you do.

Secondly, I've explored the Christian concept, I've read the bible, and I've considered everything I could. I've found Christianity to be inconsistant, harmful, and inadequate.

Inconsistant because the Bible has been shown to be of very questionable reliablity by historical scholars.

Harmful because the God of the Bible is a tyrant, unforgiving, merciless dictator who teaches you that your worth nothing, your life is worth nothing, and that you should spend your entire existance hanging on his goodwill ( If I could dare use such a statement in describing the Chrisitian god ).

And inadequate...because faith has yet to work. Ever since I discovered atheisism, I've never felt better in my life. I don't have anymore doubts, because the more and more I learn, and experiment.. I find that reason always wins.

FROM THERE IT IS IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW UP BY READING HIS WORD WHICH GUIDES US...ITS THAT SIMPLE......FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THIS IS FICTION,THATS OK THATS YOUR OPINION, BUT MAYBE SOMEONE OUT THERE WOULD LIKE TO GIVE JESUS A TRY IF SO,READ JOHN 3: 16 AND JUST THINK ON WHAT IT OFFERS.....MY HOPE IS THAT MAYBE IT WOULD HELP SOMEONE....THNX

Indeed. But I would argue that the same said person should be offered the reasons and ideas behind atheisism. ( More specifically, Humanism ). Of course, how many Christians will agree that that idea, eh? ;)

Until next time...
 
Tyler's right you can say whatever you want and so can we. I respect people's opinions but frankly I think your doing exactly what your codemning them for ..... pushing values upon people.

This forum can be used to debate gods existance, note the word debate. At first I thought people with a belief in God were being trashed too much also, but I realized its a DEBATE and that more people that don't believe in God's existance frequent this site. So if you don't want to get "picked on" then fight back, but really there the only ones with anything near (though I still think evidence is hard to come by, if not there) a logical argument. So you might have a hard time.

-Sorry to be so abrupt, but when people quote scriptures I come out swingin'.
 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.
 
Aragorn,

I would feel compelled to agree with you, except it the bible itself that many christians claim it the absolute truth. We quote from it, therefore ( atleast I do ) to disprove many of their lines of reasoning.
 
Aragorn,

Welcome to sciforums.

What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.
Because something is old that doesn’t necessarily negate its value or relevancy. There are many existing Greek texts that predate the bible that include enormous wisdom. For example the mathematics pioneered by Pythagoras from around 500BCE.

Also what does it matter how many authors were involved? Again that gives no indication of lack of relevancy.

The relevancy of something can only be judged on its actual contents and whether such contents are of any practical value or represent any type of truth or knowledge.

The bible was written by hundreds of authors, and much of those writings were heavily edited to create a story that suited the political/religious rulers of the times.

There is some wisdom in the bible but it’s claims for the supernatural remain baseless and essentially useless in any practical manner.

But for atheists it is probably one of the best books for showing the irrelevance, inconsistent, and contradictory nature of Christianity.

Cris
 
Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Aragorn
What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.

Is the bible true?

1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That’s 1 out of 1.
Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. For the last 2500 years, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Nevertheless, the Bible showed that the day would come when the nation of Israel would be reborn.
The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the latter days. It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus immediately after. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Twenty nine of them are listed here.
Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the fulfillment of the signs from God’s Word and the incredible rebirth of Israel happening exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.
Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At exactly 4pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, “The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended.” Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once. It happened exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under armed attack by the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis.

3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled.

4. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 4 out of 4.
Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the “United Nations” approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was “brought forth out of the nations”—the children of Israel from many nations were returning to their ancient homeland.

5. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 5 out of 5.
Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know we are in the last generation. One is by Israel’s rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. A Jewish generation is figured from the age of 20 to 60 (1968). We are not setting any date, but it seems clear that we are living in that generation now.

6. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 6 out of 6.
Note: God will spew them out. Many church leaders and people that call themselves a Christian and are sure they are saved will not be going to heaven. The Bible tells us—you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don’t know it-Rev 3:14-22. This is today’s church. Most churches preach very little Scripture, but lots of worldly stories. Many sing a great deal, but put very little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day. Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear. People will not endure sound doctrine-2 Tim 4:3. They turn away from the truth-2 Tim 4:4. Many church members are so lukewarm or dead, they don’t even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God. Many ministers think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.

7. The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end. Here are some:
A.

Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. This is perfect. Reportedly in Great Britain alone, there are about 35,000 professing witches.
B. People would have no conscience-1 Tim 4:1,2.
C. People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.
D. People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. Remember the TV commercials—“I do it for me”?
E. People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.
F. People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.
G. Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.
H. People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?
I. People would be untrustworthy, friends would betray friends-2 Tim 3:1-3.
J.


People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?—we can go another time. Our American motto “In God we trust” has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.
K.



People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21. The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs. God’s Word is 100% right on every one. That’s 7 out of 7. How could you have any doubts at this point?
Note: Fifty years ago, many people never locked their doors at night. People could leave their keys in their car. Merchants could leave their merchandise on the sidewalk without guards, and there was no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies. One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing. Those days are long gone.


8. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. This prophecy is true. That’s 8 out of 8.
Note: When in our history would anyone have ever thought this possible? It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2000) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

9. There would be an increase in earthquakes-Mt 24:2,3,7; Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is correct. That’s 9 out of 9.
Note: One might think as the earth settled over a period of time that earthquakes would decrease like ripples in the water. Yet the Bible indicates the opposite is true. In this last generation, research from the U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center reveals that major earthquakes of a magnitude of 6.0 or higher have remained relatively constant during this century. However, the total number of earthquakes in recent years appear to be rising. For example, it was reported that in 1986, the total number of earthquakes was 12,718. In l990, it was 16,612. In 1994, it was 19,371. This will culminate during the Battle of Armageddon, AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. At that time, there will be an earthquake that will shake the world. The cities of the nations will fall. Every island will flee away.

10. At the time of the end, there would be famines in various places. Food shortages would still exist in some places-Mt 24:3,4,7; ref Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is accurate. That’s 10 out of 10.
Note: In this last generation, many are starving in the world. Poverty and crop failure, due to severe weather, drought, or insect infestation, are often a factor. Many people are born, live, and die on the streets, in alleyways, or railroad stations in some countries of the world. Multitudes live in mud houses with grass or palm branches for a roof or have no place to live at all. Billions have no electricity. In some nations, good drinking water is almost nonexistent. Senseless wars have left millions of people with no place to go. Refugee camps exist in many places where people live under conditions that are almost indescribable. They are hungry.
One such person was asked, as I recall, “What would it take for you to consider yourself rich?” His reply was, “I would consider myself rich, if I could have a roof over my head that did not leak, and if I could know what it is like to go to bed at night with a full stomach.”
It has been estimated that 60,000,000 people a year die from starvation around the world. This prophecy is accurate.

11. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This prophecy is exact. That’s 11 out of 11.
Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or “among all nations.” Yet when this prophecy was made, the possibility of such a thing would have seemed impossible. There was no printing press or any means to do such a thing. In addition to this, the Gospel should be available by short-wave radio to listeners anywhere in the world. We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions—yet with God nothing is impossible.

12. In the latter days when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 14 out of 14.
Note: How could the Bible have foretold such a thing? It told the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass. As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN. Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic in the world can see that the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are very near the time of the end.

Here are just a few more prophecies briefly given, out of the 365 that exist, regarding this latter day generation.

13. In the last days, people would be hoarding gold and silver. True. It began in the late 1970’s.

14. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is absolutely astounding. It is estimated by some that the population of the entire world at the time of Christ was only about 200,000,000. How then could the Bible have ever told the location of a nation and given such a figure as the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure.

15. The currency in Israel at the time of the end would be the shekel. The currency had been the Israeli pound until June 1980, when it was changed to the shekel. The Bible is flawless.

16. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is a perfect description of the European Economic Community (the EEC), which is in the process right now of adopting the one-currency system for many of their member nations. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44
 
Originally posted by Tinker683


The sacrifice was un-needed, and shouldn't have even been there to begin with, because God should have forgiven us at the beginning.


Can one be forgiven without first wanting to be forgiven?
No. In order to be forgiven you must first want to be forgiven, and that you cannot be forced into. Thus you could not already be forgiven because you have not decided that you to repent. Thus the sacrifice was necessary to provide a way to be forgiven. And yes, a way to be forgiven was necessary. If God cast out 1/3 of his angels, he could not just forgive man. God is just and thus all must be treated equally. God could not (or did not, I will not presume to know which) just forgive man because he has to treat man the way he treats his angels. Thus scince he could not forgive his angels, he cannot just forgive us. His sacrifice was indeed justified.
 
Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Aragorn
What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.

Yeah but I have to say you can twist the words in it to back anything you want. If taken face value there are some good parables for living.
 
Kython13,

Welcome to sciforums.

Can one be forgiven without first wanting to be forgiven?
No. In order to be forgiven you must first want to be forgiven, and that you cannot be forced into.
It is alleged that God is all-powerful, so he could forgive at any time if he so wished. It’s his rules.

Thus you could not already be forgiven because you have not decided that you to repent.
But an all powerful God could have created the conditions where sin and therefore forgiveness weren’t necessary at all.

Thus the sacrifice was necessary to provide a way to be forgiven.
What sacrifice? God has never sacrificed anything.

And yes, a way to be forgiven was necessary. If God cast out 1/3 of his angels, he could not just forgive man.
That implies there is something he cannot do, and that is impossible for an all-powerful God.

God is just and thus all must be treated equally.
Then why does he arbitrarily condemn some to hell and others he rewards by allowing them into heaven? That is hardly just or fair.

God could not (or did not, I will not presume to know which) just forgive man because he has to treat man the way he treats his angels.
This God seems very limited.

Thus scince he could not forgive his angels, he cannot just forgive us. His sacrifice was indeed justified.
So he created a complicated set of circumstances for himself, complete with self imposed restrictions and limitations, all so that we could be allowed to sin, be forced to worship him and beg for his forgiveness, so that he could make us his friend.

Why? Why did he not make us perfect in the first place? Isn’t he all-powerful? Why the seemingly complicated maze of intricate idiosyncrasies?

It looks like no such god exists and that Christianity is just a complicated fantasy that is being made to fit the facts of reality. The result is an idiotic Alice In Wonderland fairy tale that lacks any degree of sensible credibility.

Cris
 
Forgiveness for what?

What exatly do we need to be forgiven for? for being human?

Forgiven cause Adam & Eve bit the apple of the tree of knowledge?

Are we back to the Original Sin once more?


Kython13 welcome to Sciforum, can you explain to me why I need to be forgiven? What have I done? that requires the forgiveness of an all mighty being? It seems to me that the one who needs to be forgiving us is this all mighty being.

Who is at fault for our inadequacies?
 
Argument from Religous Viewpoint.

No I don't have this viewpoint at all, but have some ideas that made me want to debate from it.

(going on the belief God exists, which I'm not sure about) No I don't think God is infallable, therefore he created the Earth and had to learn about our nature and the scary thing the nature of free will with us. So God created sin as a realization we would do things to each other and against him that shouldn't be promoted as a whole for the good of Earth. God chose to go through the complicated process of creating sin/forgiveness by creating something based upon the rules of the universe he created. Like a computer programer doesn't change a whole program just to change one thing that he could do within the rules he created. The question arises why didn't God just create sin and cange the universe. Well, maybe hes not as omnipitent as we think..... maybe that would have been harder for him.

Once again I don't uphold these beliefs, so don't attack me/my beliefs just my argument please. Thanks ~ Cactus
 
Kython13,

In your long post what references are you quoting from, or are these your own words?

If you are pasting from reference material then please quote the reference. If it is on the web then please provide a web link.

It is preferable to use your own words than those of a publication. Otherwise we would all just be fighting over whoose expert is better.

Cris
 
Originally posted by Cris

Then why does he arbitrarily condemn some to hell and others he rewards by allowing them into heaven? That is hardly just or fair.
Arbitrary? YOu are given the choice to either reject or accept forgiveness, God is merely honoring your decision.
Originally posted by Cris

So he created a complicated set of circumstances for himself, complete with self imposed restrictions and limitations, all so that we could be allowed to sin, be forced to worship him and beg for his forgiveness, so that he could make us his friend.
So you don't want to be allowed to sin? You would rather be a mindless puppet who carried out God's every wish? No, God gives you the choice between death and life, sin and a godly lifestyle. As for forced to worship him, you are forced to do nothing. Worship is a chosen outward display of thanks toward God for sparing us from the eternal fire we deserve for sinning. And if you refuse to accept that then interpret it as merely thanks for creating your life. Beg for forgiveness? Neg, you needent beg for forgiveness, nor need you even ask; Forgiveness has already been provided and you merely have to accept it, God is giving it to you, are you going to reject his free gift? Make us his friend. Is that not what we were made for to begin with? After creation, the Bible immediately speaks of Adam walking with God, conversing not as a minion who trembles at his voice, but as a friend in a casual conversation. This is what was intended, however it was ruined for us. Indeed, Adam and Eve first sinned and thus we are cursed by their actions, however God offers to allow us back into his graces, like a friend offering a peace, like.

Originally posted by Cris

Why? Why did he not make us perfect in the first place? Isn’t he all-powerful? Why the seemingly complicated maze of intricate idiosyncrasies?

He did make us perfect, in his image, however Satan tempted Adam and Eve, convinced them to sin and thus tainted them, and their blemishes are passes down to us. Why are they passed down to us? This I cannot answer, I am not all knowing, however, the fact remains that we are tainted. That is why being forgiven is often referred to as being washed clean. As for intricate idiosyncricies, is it truly so difficult to accept an outstreached hand?
 
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