Objective reality: How do we know it exists ?

...Amuse me with your protestations.
OK:
...The theist has to posit a god or there is nothing to talk about. The atheist just has to not be convinced. There is no actual counter claim the atheist must put forth - so the burden is on the theist. ...

The non-Solipsist has to posit a external reality or there is nothing to talk about. The Solipsist just has to not be convinced. There is no actual counter claim the Solipsist must put forth - so the burden is on the non-Solipsist.

Was having your logic thrown back at you amusing?
 
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Given the varied positions possible in the field of ontology it doesn't seem unreasonable to have you clarify yours since him "doing his own research" could lead him to positions you don't in fact advocate. That doesn't mean you have to dumb it down but blowing him off seems disingenuous and using mod to support yourself in this way seems a clear conflict of interest.

2 points:

First, any subsequent clarifications on terminology following the OP will be entirely contingent upon that OP. Thus, the need for the OP to be clear.

Second, I was neither 'blowing him off', nor attempting to 'dumb it down'.
swarm, I know you recognize the importance of both context and lucid description. I was merely asking thinking to recognize the same.
 
A baby is born. The baby is attracted to some sensations and repelled by other sensations. The baby desires to manipulate what sensations the baby experiences. The baby needs a strategy. It could be an unconscious strategy but manipulation requires a strategy. Strategies require beliefs about cause and effect. At some point holding many beliefs about cause and effect may cause the baby to develop a nonverbal cosmology of the factors that influence the sensations that the baby experiences.

At this point the baby faces the choice whether to create a solipsistic or a no-solipsistic cosmology. Child psychologists have suggested that babies start out thinking everything is about them.

What does effective manipulation require. Is thinking that mommy is part of our own mind as effective as thinking mommy is external? If effective manipulation requires that we treat mommy as if she is external then results oriented applied Occam's Razor would suggest that we should adopt the non-solipsistic view of the universe.

As far as the truth goes the principle of Occam's Razor mildly favors solipsism because solipsism does not require the existence of a physical universe and thus is slightly simpler but since manipulative functionality requires a non-solipsistic attitude non-solipsism wins.
 
...but since manipulative functionality requires a non-solipsistic attitude non-solipsism wins.
Correct. No one lives by solipistic POV. If the 7AM radio weather man says: "It will surely rain this afternoon." they take an umbrella to work, not resolve to think "no rain." Solipism's only advantage is "logical purity" - I.e. the least number of assumptions.
 
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we know that objective reality exists because we are made of it , depend on it and don't understand it without thought and research

and the realization that it is the reality , the objective reality , of the object studied that guides our thoughts , it shows when we are right and corrects us when we are wrong
 
we know that objective reality exists because we are made of it , depend on it and don't understand it without thought and research

and the realization that it is the reality , the objective reality , of the object studied that guides our thoughts , it shows when we are right and corrects us when we are wrong

No, we know nothing other than that existence exists. Everything else is assumptions. All our interpretations of sensations and all our beliefs are of debatable truthfulness.
 
No, we know nothing other than that existence exists. Everything else is assumptions. All our interpretations of sensations and all our beliefs are of debatable truthfulness.

Thank you.

Although this has been pointed out to 'thinking' before, he has yet to recognize the assumptions his metaphysical realist stance entails..
 
so fun to read these.
Now thats an objective truth if ever I seen one....ha

it is interesting that this whole debate about O and S is stemming from the arrogant premise that it is only our individual perspectives that are involved thus rendering the universe as a subjective creation and our individual perspectives as God creator and all supreme being over our own individual universe.

What is somehow lacking is the need to realise that if every one is a God supreme being then they are effectvely rendered nothing but mere mortal and human and very objective.

We are dependant on other perspectives and that is what to me defeats the notion of the individual God perspective.
So IMO which may be worth discussing is that this whiole debate is premised on the flacious premise that the individual perspective is all that counts thus destroying objective reality. It precludes the fact that other perspectives do indeed impact on ours whether we live in a dream state or not and this alone indicates to some extent the falacy as mentioned.
"Man falls once he declares himself God over his universe ~ anon" a state of delusions of grandure and arrrogance in the face of the truth of what is the reality.

A man pointing a gun at your head is not all that interested in your delusions of grandure. The bullet determines the objective truth that it takes more than one perspective to determine reality.

So if this premise is discounted then what of this underlying theme to debate about how we can only perceive subjectively and that the universe is our subjective creation?
 
There are no objective truths that we can "realize" or "observe" through our collective experiences. Any truths that are currently supported through research, experiences, and tested experiments are merely a concoction of subjective truths that are taken to be as close to the objective truth as possible, however, that is still relative to how one perceives the distance created between objectivity and subjectivity.

Every piece of information we have thus gathered so far (or so as a species capable of recording history or information to be passed onto proceeding generations) are all collective experiences embedded onto material vectors which are almost never free from the interpretation of the experience holder themselves. Everything we learn that is extrinsic from what we experience first hand is still nevertheless a transmitted interpretation from another subjective source. Then on top of that, our own experiences are plagued with subjectivity, a car may appear different colors because we may be color blind or have a more subtle defect like near-sightedness, and not be wearing glasses. That or we may be pre-biased because we know more about cars than normal people do, and emphasize certain parts of the car that normal people may not notice (or may not be visible to the eye without taking the car apart). We may be biased also with the fact that we have driven the car before or had someone we know die in a car of that same look and view the car differently. Or we may never know what a car looked like before and thus it being a foreign object to us.
These are all varieties of how one objective situation can be perceived in many different viewpoints/perspectives. The lens from which we view things, like the OP mentioned, is determined by our beliefs, past experiences, childhood, etc. Thus it is rather difficult (if not impossible) to fully isolate oneself in order to measure something on an objective scale. Reality thus is unique to each individual and their realities are actually a collection of their own subjective realities mixed with their value and influence of other individuals' subjective realities and interpretations.
 
The non-Solipsist has to posit a external reality or there is nothing to talk about. The Solipsist just has to not be convinced. There is no actual counter claim the Solipsist must put forth - so the burden is on the non-Solipsist.

Was having your logic thrown back at you amusing?

It would be if you could actually pull it off.

The mere act of attempting to communicate is tacit proof that one might be confused, but one is not actually a solipsist.

Your further point is self defeating. If you are a solipsist, there is no other to shoulder any burdens. The burden is always upon the solipsist.

You have failed to amuse me figment.
 
The baby is attracted to some sensations and repelled by other sensations.

Ok so far but then you make with the unfounded assumptions...

The baby desires to manipulate what sensations the baby experiences.

You don't have access to a baby's internal cognitive states.

The baby needs a strategy. It could be an unconscious strategy but manipulation requires a strategy.

An assumption and one that requires cognitive abilities which don't seem supportable.

Strategies require beliefs about cause and effect.

Another assumption which also doesn't seem supportable.

Consider. Baby jelly fish have an even greater need to manipulate their environment and they are able to do so with far greater and far more immediate success than human babies but they have no central nervous system at all. They have no cognitive functions. No desires, strategies, beliefs or any understanding of cause and effect or understanding of anything.

If we need all of the stuff you suppose, how do the baby jelly fish survive and how did we ever survive long enough to develop those capacities?
 
Ok so far but then you make with the unfounded assumptions...
No, I was already into assumption land, but you just hapenned to buy into my first assumption.

You don't have access to a baby's internal cognitive states.

If we can BS to some degree about things we don't really know we are going to have to go silent here at Sciforums. I don't have access to the baby's internal cognitive state so I am using my "knowledge" of adult cognitive state and speculation and my intuitive feelings for babies minds. I sort of do know baby's minds and the minds of dogs and cats. I don't think there is anything unusual about knowing or at least having some familiarity with non-verbal minds.

An assumption and one that requires cognitive abilities which don't seem supportable.
Are you saying baby's don't have cognitive abilities and just rely on instinct? I am convinced that I have seen Babies and dogs and cats trying to learn.



Another assumption which also doesn't seem supportable.
No assumptions are supportable ever but I think the assumption is relatively supportable. Associations are more primitive than beliefs. Maybe I should have said associations but there is only a small difference between belief about Cause and effect and associations.

Consider. Baby jelly fish have an even greater need to manipulate their environment and they are able to do so with far greater and far more immediate success than human babies but they have no central nervous system at all. They have no cognitive functions. No desires, strategies, beliefs or any understanding of cause and effect or understanding of anything.

If we need all of the stuff you suppose, how do the baby jelly fish survive and how did we ever survive long enough to develop those capacities?

There is a difference between manipulating your environment and reacting to your environment. Baby Jelly fish don't depend on the good will of another being. Jellyfish will never need to become the complex social creatures that adult humans are. If Jellyfish have the correct instincts they will do Ok, maybe the same can be said for babies but the baby must begin the process of developing an adult mind.

Maybe I should have left babies out of the story and gone straight to the needs of adult minds but in my earliest memories (about age 3) I was clearly already using a non-solipsistic attitude an so do other toddlers that I have known. The post of mine that your quotes refer to was trying to come up with a workable theory to explain why children would have non-solipsistic attitudes solidly established prior to age 3. Jellyfish, if they have minds would have no reason not to have a solipsistic attitude.
 
Here's a random situation for discussion:

There are 3 individuals who are viewing an object in broad daylight. I'll take it in good faith that everyone's assumptions of the controlled variables will be the same, it is good weather, and visibility in terms of light penetration are the same. Their eyesight is also 20/20.

One of the persons views the object, for simplicity sake, lets just say it looks red or something. They have normal color vision.
Another one of the 3 has like color blindness, so they can only tell from what they've previously known, that the object is red or it can be green, but can only see a grayish (or whatever it looks like to them), so they can only distinguish that it may be red or green, or their own color for those things if they don't know that there was 2 separate colors. This person had red-green color blindness.
The last individual has tritanopia, and appears to see the object as what a normal person would see as the color orange, or pink. All of their colors are switched, so what they perceive to be red may be a different color for a normal person.
All 3 of the people seem to agree that the color of the object is consistent with what they know to be that color, aside from the color blind person calling it a red green mix. The person with tritanopia, although viewing the object as a color other than red, has come to associate the color red with whatever random color they have been seeing.

Now if we were to look outside of the box, these 3 individuals are humans and viewing it with human conditions which are limited to human species. Some animals may view the object in infared, which may just be a spectrum of intensity of heat, or maybe even UV rays. The object might even appear invisible depending on the situation. Say for instance there was no sun to illuminate the object. Would it have no color? Would it exist visibly if not for night-vision (which is incorrect because even night vision requires at least some ambient light source in order to pick up an image)? The colors we see are actually a reflection and absorption of wavelengths of light, the idea of color is actually the perception of different absorptions of different wavelengths of light photons.

In actuality, how would we know what the true color of an object is, given that we can only perceive such a small portion of a light's wavelength, or the spectrum. That also gives rise to the idea that a rainbow formed is actually based on the observer, and that rainbows do not actually exist without a lens to converge the light spectra into. If you ever noticed wherever you go, the rainbow always manages to appear uniform in some way. The amusing thing about a rainbow is the idea that it only exists within the receiving lens of the observer, whether it be an iris/cornea or camera aperture.

While we are speaking of these, I always thought this was a stupid question until years ago in college when I was taking social psychology; "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it (and I'm assuming all organisms capable of decoding sound waves), does it make a sound?" I guess the idea of sound, as well as the other senses, touch, taste, sight, smell- seem to be an interpretation of external stimuli, unique to different species. Dolphins have echos, and birds seem to have some magnetic sense, and some animals can hear in different sound frequencies as well as perceive infrared wavelengths.

I think I lost my train of thought.
 
the most interesting thing about our questioning of an objective reality is that we are MADE of this objective reality

so a being , Human Being(s) is made of the elements , physically, produced by the Universe

so that in order to question , one must be made and become aware , alive , fundamentally

contradiction arises
 
and the contradiction arises when , one exists , but is not aware of what it takes too exist for anyone of us , fundamentally , nutrients

and then questions existence

it makes no sense , really
 
No, I was already into assumption land, but you just happened to buy into my first assumption.

No there is reasonable evidence that even from birth "The baby is attracted to some sensations and repelled by other sensations." Pain, heights, loud noises, mother's face, her heart beat, etc.

I don't have access to the baby's internal cognitive state so I am using my "knowledge" of adult cognitive state and speculation and my intuitive feelings for babies minds.

There is no reason to believe that adult mental states map reasonably to baby mental states. There are significant changes which take place from one to the other. Also there are a number of experiments which show babies don't see things in the same light adults do. In particular things like understanding cause and effect, the durability of objects and what are reasonable expectations concerning the behavior of things.

There is a difference between manipulating your environment and reacting to your environment.

Oh?


Jellyfish will never need to become the complex social creatures that adult humans are.

Some jellyfish live in social groups

the baby must begin the process of developing an adult mind.

So?

If you turn a lone baby human loose in its native environment and a lone baby jellyfish loose in its native environment, which will live?

Jellyfish, if they have minds would have no reason not to have a solipsistic attitude.

No more or less than we do.

Solipsism is a mental defect most animals can't long afford. It is only when you forget that some of those others wish to eat you that this sort of nonsense can develop
 
In actuality, how would we know what the true color of an object is

Color is a perception. It is in your head and based on what frequencies of light are being emitted and how you percieve the same.

We could use a spectrometer to find out what frequencies are actually involved.

rainbows do not actually exist without a lens to converge the light spectra into.

Light is scattered into a spectum by water particles whether you bother to watch or not.

if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it (and I'm assuming all organisms capable of decoding sound waves), does it make a sound?

Yes this is a golden oldie, but really it boils down to - if something makes a sound and no one hears it, does it make a sound? I would say the answer seems pretty obvious.

Hearing a sound doesn't predicate the sound's existence nor does not hearing a sound deny its existence. All hearing or not hearing does is inform your awareness.
 
Color is a perception. It is in your head and based on what frequencies of light are being emitted and how you percieve the same.

We could use a spectrometer to find out what frequencies are actually involved.
Isn't that what I just said?


Light is scattered into a spectum by water particles whether you bother to watch or not.
True, but I was referring to the perception of a rainbow, not the spectra of light that scatters when bending through the refraction index of drops of water. In order for a rainbow to be realized it must converge onto a lens, the image of a rainbow that is perceived must be deciphered through the transmission and decoding of the light stimulus that is received on the retina. The shape of our lens as well as the strength of our vision can affect the size and shape of the rainbow, thus something with so much variability within the observer seems to exist exclusively within each individual and not outside (not speaking about the physics of light scattering here, just the concept of observation of light).


Yes this is a golden oldie, but really it boils down to - if something makes a sound and no one hears it, does it make a sound? I would say the answer seems pretty obvious.

Hearing a sound doesn't predicate the sound's existence nor does not hearing a sound deny its existence. All hearing or not hearing does is inform your awareness.

I don't see how the answer is obvious. I used to think it didn't matter because the sound would still be made, that is until I had to redefine what I thought was sound. If it meant sound waves, then yes, it would make sound waves in the forest. However, if it were in space or a vacuum of a forest then that would not at all be possible.
If humans were not capable of receiving "sound" waves, or at least those within the audible frequency, we would not be able to hear that sound (although it would be possible to feel the vibrations at ultra low frequencies of <5KHz, but that has to do more with receptors on the skin/body).
Does not hearing a sound deny its existence? Not necessarily. But yes, I agree all hearing does is inform you of your awareness of the sound and indicates the existence of something producing that sound, but for all we know a sound may not come from what we think is producing it. What if it just so happens that the sound we heard was not from the tree falling but rather it making a sound specifically when it falls, or our brain is actually hearing a different sound but translating it into the sound we hear when the tree falls.
 
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