Not an issue of morality - gay marriage, prostitution, etc

[scott3x]

I think the current system works relatively well, with exceptions concerning sexuality and certain drugs.

That's like saying "you are perfectly healthy except for those two gaping holes in your chest."

Laugh . I don't think it's -that- bad.. yet. but there's definitely room for improvement . We better get on this environment thing though, or else the 'two gaping holes' analogy may come to be painfully true.

A significant amount of crime, prison population and corruption is driven by drug prohibition. Not just here, but in countries the world over.

"According to the American Corrections Association, the average daily cost per state prison inmate per day in the US is $67.55. State prisons held 253,300 inmates for drug offenses in 2005. That means states spent approximately $17,110,415 per day to imprison drug offenders, or $6,245,301,475 per year."

Source: American Correctional Association, 2006 Directory of Adult and Juvenile Correctional Departments, Institutions, Agencies and Probation and Parole Authorities, 67th Edition (Alexandria, VA: ACA, 2006), p. 16; Sabol, William J., PhD, and West, Heather C., Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2008), NCJ224280, p. 21, Appendix Table 10.

Add about 95,000 federal prisoners that's 348,000 people in for drug offenses.

"The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, some 738 per 100,000 of the national population, followed by Russia (611), St Kitts & Nevis (547), U.S. Virgin Is. (521), Turkmenistan (c.489), Belize (487), Cuba (c.487), Palau (478), British Virgin Is. (464), Bermuda (463), Bahamas (462), Cayman Is. (453), American Samoa (446), Belarus (426) and Dominica (419).
"However, more than three fifths of countries (61%) have rates below 150 per 100,000."

Source: Walmsley, Roy, "World Prison Population List (Seventh Edition)" (London, England: International Centre for Prison Studies, 2007), p. 1

The land of the "free" is the most incarcerated nation in the world. When does it count as "that bad?"

I admit there's certainly a lot of incarceration in the U.S. Sure it's bad. But is it worse then the rest of the world on average? I don't think so. Which is why people tend to immigrate to the U.S. and other western countries, instead of western countries immigrating to 3rd world countries.

 

[swarm]

I admit there's certainly a lot of incarceration in the U.S. Sure it's bad. But is it worse then the rest of the world on average?

Its not just worse on average. It is the absolute worst of all nations. It doesn't get worse than us. Go USA! The one thing we are still first at is putting people in jail.

Which is why people tend to immigrate to the U.S.

People immigrate to the US mainly out of greed and they discount the risks like people do every where, especially when being greedy.

 

[scott3x]

I admit there's certainly a lot of incarceration in the U.S. Sure it's bad. But is it worse then the rest of the world on average?

Its not just worse on average. It is the absolute worst of all nations. It doesn't get worse than us. Go USA! The one thing we are still first at is putting people in jail.

You're right; I misworded what I was trying to say. While the U.S. may have the highest incarceration rate, however, people keep on immigrating to it. That, I believe, demonstrates that its good qualities outweigh its bad by a large margin.

Which is why people tend to immigrate to the U.S.

People immigrate to the US mainly out of greed and they discount the risks like people do every where, especially when being greedy.

I don't think the only reason they come is because they're greedy; far from it. Many come to earn enough to support families back in their native country, for instance. Others come because there are certain freedoms in western societies that simply don't exist in other societies.

 

[TW Scott]

The land of the "free" is the most incarcerated nation in the world. When does it count as "that bad?"

You might want to remeber that many nations around the world simply kill or mutilate criminals so I think perhaps our system might not be as flawed as people think.

I agree that prostitution should be legalized, regulated, and taxed. It would completely eliminate the most violent aspects of it. I agree drug possession for private use should be decriminalized, the offender should have to go to rehab and work off the cost of rehab as well.

Now those who still try to pimp or sell drug that should still be illegal. Pimps should not be allowed and drugs should be avaialble only in certain type of facilitiies where OD's can be handled.

 

[Norsefire]

You might want to remeber that many nations around the world simply kill or mutilate criminals so I think perhaps our system might not be as flawed as people think.

I agree that prostitution should be legalized, regulated, and taxed.

By whom? And I think that should be left to the free market. The government has no right to invade on our decisions

It would completely eliminate the most violent aspects of it. I agree drug possession for private use should be decriminalized, the offender should have to go to rehab and work off the cost of rehab as well.

Nobody should "have to" do anything

 

[scott3x]

I agree drug possession for private use should be decriminalized, the offender should have to go to rehab and work off the cost of rehab as well.

I have qualms with forced rehab, whether it's for alcohol or for any other drug. However, the fact of the matter is that right now, it's pretty dang hard to get into rehab at all; it should be a free service, not something that you have to pay through the nose for or wait even a day for.

 

[TW Scott]

By whom? And I think that should be left to the free market. The government has no right to invade on our decisions

What i mean is the girls should have to get regular blood screening and be registered only in that they 18+. Taxed would be like paying your income tax is all.

Nobody should "have to" do anything

Under current system they go to prison, at least with rehab they only have to stay a short period and they aren;t required to participate.

 

[gurglingmonkey]

See? Morals NOR the laws ...bullshit on pieces of paper.... did any good at all for the blacks of the south ...for some 100 years!! It was ONLY when the armed National Guards were sent in that the REAL freedoms began.

See how ineffective morals and laws are ...WITHOUT... enforcement?

Yeah! We should forget about morals and laws and just enforce...
Wait, why was the National Guard sent to the south?

 

[swarm]

I don't think the only reason they come is because they're greedy

Not perhaps the only one, but a very, very common one.

Many come to earn enough to support families back in their native country

thanks for making my point.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

"Needed for WHAT"???????????????????

Yes, needed for what?

OBVIOUSLY I don't understand what you mean or WHY you're asking.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

I admit there's certainly a lot of incarceration in the U.S. Sure it's bad. But is it worse then the rest of the world on average? I don't think so. Which is why people tend to immigrate to the U.S. and other western countries, instead of western countries immigrating to 3rd world countries.

=====

It could be the best on Earth yet be only 3% as good as needed.

 

[swarm]

You might want to remeber that many nations around the world simply kill or mutilate criminals so I think perhaps our system might not be as flawed as people think.

Have you looked into how we treat our prisoners?

But be that as it may there is no country, not Russia, not Cuba, not China, not Iran, no body puts more of their people in jail. And you think that's not a flaw for a supposedly free nation?!

Just what would be a flaw then? Gitmo? Torturing prisoners? Disappearing people? Oops, already got those.

 

[Baron Max]

But be that as it may there is no country, not Russia, not Cuba, not China, not Iran, no body puts more of their people in jail. And you think that's not a flaw for a supposedly free nation?!

Well, think about it for a moment! The very freedoms that we have are exactly, precisely, the reason that there's so much crime ....we're given the freedoms to commit the crimes. That's not true in many other nations of the world.

The amount of individual freedom is the very cause of increased crime. Which, of course, causes the increase in arrests and convictions ...AFTER the individual has USED his freedoms to commit the crimes!

Baron Max

 

[scott3x]

I don't think the only reason they come is because they're greedy

Not perhaps the only one, but a very, very common one.

Have any evidence to support that assertion?

Many come to earn enough to support families back in their native country

thanks for making my point.

Helping others isn't greed. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[scott3x]

I think the current system works relatively well, with exceptions concerning sexuality and certain drugs.

I think the current system "works" about 3% as well as needed.

Needed for what? I contend that it works relatively well in western countries, as opposed to many third world countries, which is why immigrants tend to come to western countries, not the other way around.

It could be the best on Earth yet be only 3% as good as needed.

"Needed for WHAT"???????????????????

Yes, needed for what?

OBVIOUSLY I don't understand what you mean or WHY you're asking.

You stated: I think the current system "works" about 3% as well as needed.


My question is simply, needed for what? You to feel happy?

 

[swarm]

Have any evidence to support that assertion?

The main reason for immigration has long been economic opportunity, the lure of better land or a better job. During the 1800's, for example, the rich prairie land of the United States attracted many European farmers. Today, professional people commonly emigrate because of better opportunities elsewhere. Such emigration has sometimes been called brain drain. Many doctors and nurses and numerous engineers and scientists have moved to the United States. (Source: The Golden Door and Land of the Free, pp. 42-43).

Helping others isn't greed. Quite the opposite, in fact.

There greed is for noble ends, but they still are looking for an easier buck here.

 

[swarm]

The very freedoms that we have are exactly, precisely, the reason that there's so much crime ....we're given the freedoms to commit the crimes. That's not true in many other nations of the world.

Have you never left the US? We are by no means the top of the first world stak in anything but incarceration. Also we obviously DON"T have the freedom to commit crimes or people wouldn't be getting thrown in jail.

Portugese, for example, have the freedom to do illegal drugs and NOT be thrown in jail. That is freedom.

The amount of individual freedom is the very cause of increased crime. Which, of course, causes the increase in arrests and convictions ...AFTER the individual has USED his freedoms to commit the crimes!

You really are a dumbass.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Well, think about it for a moment! The very freedoms that we have are exactly, precisely, the reason that there's so much crime ....we're given the freedoms to commit the crimes. That's not true in many other nations of the world.

The amount of individual freedom is the very cause of increased crime. Which, of course, causes the increase in arrests and convictions ...AFTER the individual has USED his freedoms to commit the crimes!

Baron Max

We are not given freedom to commit crimes.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

You stated: I think the current system "works" about 3% as well as needed.


My question is simply, needed for what? You to feel happy?

WHAT is the system needed for in the 1st place?

 

[Baron Max]

We are not given freedom to commit crimes.

Oh, sure we are!! You can walk down to the store, buy a gun, buy ammo, go over to your neighbors house and shoot him dead. Who would stop you if you didn't go blabbing it out in a verbal threat? Cops can't do anything UNTIL the crime is completed. Fear of punishment is the only deterrent.

Baron Max