Non-theist

one_raven

God is a Chinese Whisper
Valued Senior Member
I have been going on lately about how I do not consider myself a theist or an atheist. I have taken to calling myself a “non-theist”.
I thought I would start a thread to discuss this.

As a child, being a Catholic was no different to me than being an Italian/Scotch-Irish/German by descent.
I was Catholic by descent.
I knew other religions existed – I even knew a bit about what some of them believed.
I was fortunate enough to be raised in one of the most culturally and religiously diverse areas of the world – Northern New Jersey. My childhood school pictures looked like a UN Security Council in miniature.
However, just as I was born Italian, I was born Catholic.

One day, in my third grade class, the teacher was talking about what Deists believe. She taught us that they believed that there is a God who started it all, but then pulled away to let things happen as they will. Their God did not intervene at all.

My first thought was that this made sense to me.
Then something clicked. I’m not sure exactly how or why it happened, but it did.
I instantly realized that religion isn’t something that was part of who I am. It was something I chose to be a part of – or chose to not be a part of.

It made me think of all the questions I got in trouble for asking in CCD. For those who are not familiar, CCD stands for “Confraternity of Christian Doctrine”. It is the Catholic Church’s method of indoctrinating school-aged kids.
“Teacher. We have been to the moon. We know that if we get out of the atmosphere our heads will explode. How come God didn’t know that, and he felt he had to change everyone’s language when they were building the Tower of Babel?”
“Teacher. Who lived in the Land of Nod?”
“Teacher. If Adam and Eve were the first two people, and incest is a sin…”

I immediately decided I was no longer Catholic.

This started a long search for what I did believe. The more I learned about the history of the Church, the words of Jesus and what other religions had to say, the less faith I had in the Christian God.

No matter how much I was opposed to the idea of a cognizant Creator God watching over us, I could never call myself an atheist and I could not figure out why.
Was it my Catholic indoctrination? After all, as a very young child I talked to God and was convinced he talked back to me.
Was it social pressure?
Was it being unsure of myself?
Was it simply an easy way to explain the mysteries of the Universe?

For years I would never refer to myself as an atheist and when people would ask I would say that I was an agnostic with Buddhist leanings.

The reason, I finally figured out, why I could not call myself an atheist is that I did believe in something greater, grander and more powerful than us – than life itself. This thing I saw as divine. I had a humble reverence for it. I was in awe of its power. This thing was, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to – hell, even more powerful than – any God I had heard or read about.
It, however, was not cognizant. It had no intention, save for what we gave it. It was not angry, benevolent, malevolent, jealous or any other human trait we prescribed to Gods, yet it was – in my view – sacred.

The Devil and God are indistinguishable.
Both reside in the collective intentions, actions and knowledge of man, and they are in a constant struggle with each other.

Every action you take affects the lives and decisions of countless people around you and each one of those actions that were affected by your action affects many more.
It is an endless collection of ripples interacting in an infinite pool of time.

Any decision you make, regardless of how insignificant it may seem on the surface, could ultimately end up affecting the lives of millions of people that you don’t even know, and many that you do know.
What is most important is being mindful of the contributions you make to it by virtue of simply existing and interacting with other life.
It is important to acknowledge the fact that we and our lives are so intrinsically intertwined and powerfully influenced by this, and that we would do well to keep that in mind when we make the choices we do.
We certainly are self-determined animals, but we are constantly inundated with influences in our lives, and while that is certainly no excuse to absolve yourself of your responsibility and accountability of your actions, not being mindful of such influences will cause you to fall prey to it. The immense power of this is something that should be revered, not blamed, because the source of the blame is placed squarely on individuals and their actions.
As such, nothing is more important than integrity and compassion in action.

Although its existence cannot be seen, heard, measured or quantified, it certainly has very real effects.
It swept through the Deep South many years ago and convinced people that they were justified in lynching human beings based on the color of their skin.
It pulled people together at home to gather their efforts and cooperate while their sons and husbands were off fighting World War II.
It made Michael Jackson a star.
It made Michael Jackson a pitiful laughing stock.

Even inanimate objects have a role to play. If a tree falls and blocks your path, you must find a way over, through or around it.
What if that tree falls on an ambulance in its way to rescue a dying child?
Everything is interconnected, and those interconnections, are a beautiful example of synergy. The sum really is greater than the whole of its parts.
Every action you take, every word you speak, every thought you have becomes a part of this, influences it and can be greatly magnified by it.
That synergy is what I worship.

It is Chaos Theory.
It is The Butterfly Effect.
It is Karma, Manifest.

While there may well be Fundamental Metaphysical Truths out there which we have no control over, reality is certainly manifest through belief and actions.
Does the Christian God exist? If people believe in him, he does. All Gods exist.
Whether or not Gods existence is a Metaphysical Truth, it is a reality. If people believe in him and their lives are affected by this belief as much as they would be if he did exist then he does.

The power inherent in Gods is the power inherent in collective belief and action.
If a million people believe in the God Ralph, and these million people act in a concordance with what they believe Ralph wants them to act, does it really matter if Ralph’s existence is a matter of Metaphysical Truth? The results are the same.

While I do not hold any belief that any cognizant Gods exist as a matter of Metaphysical Truth, they do, in fact, exist in reality.
I do not worship these Gods, I do, however, worship Karma Manifest in much the same way that people worship these Gods of theirs.
Thus, I am not a theist or an atheist.

I am a non-theist.
 
Very interesting. I don't understand your concept of karmic reality. But its still interesting.

I am happy you found out what made sense to you :p
 
Could you elaborate on this?

Even inanimate objects have a role to play. If a tree falls and blocks your path, you must find a way over, through or around it.
What if that tree falls on an ambulance in its way to rescue a dying child?
Everything is interconnected, and those interconnections, are a beautiful example of synergy. The sum really is greater than the whole of its parts.
Every action you take, every word you speak, every thought you have becomes a part of this, influences it and can be greatly magnified by it.
That synergy is what I worship.
 
It is all about the interconnectedness of everything - not just all living things and their ideas.

An idea becomes a movement when it has followers.
The movement shapes the followers and the followers shape the movement.

More than that, however, is that the movement shapes the world around it by influencing other ideas, other movements and other people.

A single muttered word could change the world.

However, if the person who would have muttered that single word gets killed by swerving in his car to avoid a fallen tree before he has the chance to mutter that word - that tree affected the movement, the people and the world in a dramatic way.
 
It is all about the interconnectedness of everything - not just all living things and their ideas.

An idea becomes a movement when it has followers.
The movement shapes the followers and the followers shape the movement.

More than that, however, is that the movement shapes the world around it by influencing other ideas, other movements and other people.

A single muttered word could change the world.

However, if the person who would have muttered that single word gets killed by swerving in his car to avoid a fallen tree before he has the chance to mutter that word - that tree affected the movement, the people and the world in a dramatic way.

The wheel of Dharma?


In the Rig veda, the belief (or observation) that a natural justice and harmony pervades the natural world becomes manifest in the concept of rta, which is both 'nature's way' and the order implicit in nature. Thus rta bears a resemblance to the ancient Chinese concept of tao and the Heraclitan or stoic conception of the logos.

This "power" that lies behind nature, and which keeps everything in balance became a natural forerunner to the idea of dharma as one can see in this early Vedic prayer. This idea laid the cornerstone of Dharma's implicit attribution to the "ultimate reality" of the surrounding universe, in classical Hindu.

The following verse from the Rig-Veda is an example where rta finds mention :

"O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right path over all evils." (RV 10.133.6)

The transition of the rta to the modern idea of Dharma occurs in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. The Upanishads saw dharma as the universal principle of law, order, harmony, all in all truth, that sprang first from Brahman. It acts as the regulatory moral principle of the Universe. It is sat, truth, a major tenet of Hinduism. This hearkens back to the conception of the Rig Veda that "Ekam Sat," (Truth Is One), of the idea that Brahman is "Sacchidananda" (Truth-Consciousness-Bliss). Dharma is not just law, or harmony, it is pure Reality. In the Brihadaranyaka's own words:

" Verily, that which is Dharma is truth.
Therefore they say of a man who speaks truth, 'He speaks the Dharma,'

or of a man who speaks the Dharma, 'He speaks the Truth.'
Verily, both these things are the same."
(Brh. Upanishad, 1.4.14) (2)

In the Mahabharata, Krishna defines Dharma as: "Dhaaranaad dharma ity aahur dharmena vidhrtaah prajaah, Yat syaad dhaarana sanyuktam sa dharma iti nishchayah", Dharma upholds both this-worldly and the other-worldly affairs (Mbh 12.110.11).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma
 
Its Dharma chakra [ch- as in check] and I've added the details. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra


I will go back and check the link you posted, but this, as I see it, is quite distinct from Dharma.
Dharma covers specific ethics, practices and behaviors - as opposed to simply the fundamentals of karma and them manifest force resulting from those interactions.

Furthermore, the Wheel of Dharma and Dharma itself are different concepts as I understand it.
 
Thanks, I always assumed the law of Dharma was based on the principle of rta.

Thats a weird spelling of chakra.
 
Sam,

You are confusing me and I would like some clarification.

Dharma, in Hindi, is a general term which essentially refers to a body of teaching.
Dharma, as I am used to using the term (or Dhamma), in the Buddhist sense, refers to the body of Siddhartha's teachings.

The Wheel of Dharma refers to either the familiar symbol:
wheel2.gif

Or the Dharma that symbol represents.
Or I have heard it used to represent the concept of keeping the "wheel turning" or continuing to spread and discuss the Dharma - thus the Tibetan prayer wheels that are kept turning.

I am not sure which of this you are comparing to what I have tried to outline above.
 
The confusion was mine, I assumed the Dharmachakra was the wheel of Dharma in Hinduism, I did not realise its a Buddhist thing. Your concept of non-theism, sounded very much like the basis of Hindu Dharma to me, with some karma thrown in.

I did warn you that I did not understand it. :p

rta is new to me - I have never heard of it before.

rta is just natural order. Dharma is the power behind rta.

Sanskrit ṛtá (ऋत) as used in Vedic Sanskrit literally means the "order or course of things", cognate to Avestan aša. In the Vedas, rta lays the philosophical foundation for the Hindu conception of dharma. In current usage, the use of the term rta is eschewed for the more developed and now standard dharma. Rta became deified as the father of justice and righteousness, unyielding but eminently fair. It grew, as Radhakrishnan states, from physical to divine and thus from natural to moral, in its purvey. Rta was morality, the equitable law of the universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rta
 
Dharma is not just law, or harmony, it is pure Reality. In the Brihadaranyaka's own words:

" Verily, that which is Dharma is truth.
Therefore they say of a man who speaks truth, 'He speaks the Dharma,'

What then, in your best estimation, is the difference between Dharma (rta) and Satya?
 
Let me give you a scenario…

Brenda is on a cross-country train trip.
As she is walking to her seat, she walks past a man talking on his cell phone and hears him say, “Kerouac”.

Later that afternoon, she sees the man in the bar car. He isn’t the sort of man who she would normally approach, and he barely noticed her, but she is a big fan of Jack Kerouac’s writing, so she decides to talk to him. “Did I overhear you talking about Kerouac?”

They talk all night as they travel across the country and hit it off great.
It turns out Brenda and Jim live in the same city.
They exchange numbers, date, fall for each other…
As they say, the rest is history.

Brenda and Jim’s son ends up becoming the President of the United States when he grows up and finally negotiates peace in the Middle East.

If it wasn’t for the word Kerouac, they would not have met.
If he wasn’t on the phone with whoever, she wouldn’t have heard the word.
If it wasn’t for her father introducing her to Kerouac…
How many other billions of factors had to come together just right for them to meet and hit it off?
What if Jim’s Great Grandmother had never met his Great Grandfather?

Every little decision you make every day echoes out into eternity and has a great impact on the world, whether you recognize it or not.

The best we can do is to remain mindful and vigilant about what we add to the Karma Manifest and what we take from it.
 
How about collective consciousness?

How about it?

Isn't Collective Consciousness specifically about the ties that bind a community through common experience?

That would be a part of this, I suppose, but hardly what I am talking about.

Or are you referring to Jung's Collective Unconscious?
 
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