Noah's Ark

[spidergoat]

The "so what" part is that this story undermines an understanding of how the world really works.

 

[ULTRA]

Yeah, granted. But Spidey, it was written by people that didn't know how the world worked. They didn't have a clue! They took store in bird-signs and divination by chicken-guts. Is it really so surprising, really?

 

[NMSquirrel]

if it hadn't been for Emperor Theodosius, no one would have heard of it in this day and age.

which brings up the question would god have survived without texts?

Well that's a character flaw on your part.

uncalled for and unscientific,
you have been doing a great job at presenting your view/evidence, do not screw it up by making it a personal thing.

we are supposed to be comparing differences, not 'who is right'

.
If you're going to post evidence, make sure it's relevant and applicable, and don't cherry-pick,

how does your response apply to what i said?

which is a rather typical christian trait, in addition to seeing only what they want to see.

so you can insult?or is that an attempt to justify your own attitudes for christians?


this is why insults are not scientific, it draws the attention away from the subject matter being discussed..IOW Don't piss ppl off if you want them to listen to you..(didn't i say that to chi once?) which brings up the question are you preaching or teaching?

 

[gmilam]

What is so contentious about a man building a boat and saving some animals? it happens all the time RE: Queensland, Australia. So it got exaggerated, so what? Stories always do.

True. But face it, while a farmer saving his livestock is much more believable, it's not the Noah's Ark tale. And many people "believe" Noah's Ark is literal fact.

 

[twr]

I was thinking this weekend while I was in the duck blind about the ludicrousness of Noah's Ark. For one, there are roughly 20,000 species of fish, 6,000 species of reptiles, 9,000 birds, 1,000 amphibians, and 15,000 species of mammals. That would take one hell of an ark to house all of those animals, plus the sheer resources required to feed them. There would also be the issue of cramped spaces and the animals fighting and killing each other, which would be unavoidable, therefor making some species extinct, since there was only one male and one female of each species. Then the issue of plant life being completely destroyed, thereby no food for the plant eating species. If the entire planet had been flooded, would there not be fossilized remains of sea life scattered across the continents? Next, with all life being destroyed, including flooded plant life, how was the earth's atmosphere oxygenated? Finally, where did all of that water go?

Back when I was forced to go to Church (I didn't like it, not because I had moral objections, but because I was missing half my weekend), we were never really told to take the Bible literally, but I always found that a contradiction of what religion was all about anyways.

Most of the people I know look at religion as more of a support system or some measure of spiritual well being, but I went to a protestant church (those are the less-retarded of the two, the other being Catholic).

Something has always told me that there was more than just empirical evidence. I really only don't go to church or anything because I don't like the idea of blind-obedience and being told that scientific ideas that are fairly provable by humanities' standards are just "false" because the only thing that's "true" is what's written in the Bible.

 

[twr]

More to the point, there's no geological evidence to support the story.

 

[Dinosaur]

Ultra: Check posts 25, 29, & 33.

There is historical circumstance in favour of Noah's Ark. Approximately 8,000 years ago the region we now know of as the Black Sea was fertile, farmed land.​

At the time you are mentioning, Black Sea level was only 200-300 meters lower than the present sea level. The flooding event did submerge some villages discovered in the last 10-20 years. As you suggest, it could be the origin of the Gilgamish & Noah myths.

I think (not sure) it might have been 8000 BC rather than 8000 years ago that Black Sea level rose swiftly due to the opening of previously closed Dardenelles & Bosphorus Straits.

When the Black Sea was completely evaporated millions of years ago, it was not fertile farmable land. It was like the Great Salt Flats in Utah.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Most of the people I know look at religion as more of a support system or some measure of spiritual well being, but I went to a protestant church (those are the less-retarded of the two, the other being Catholic).

i have learned that you cannot judge a church by the title they use to affiliate with, (did you know that in order to get the tax exemptions for a church they have to align themselves with a recognized organized religion?)
i have been to several different types (protestant,baptist,catholic,non-denomination) not because i was searching for a particular denomination,but a particular way of being, more focused on god instead of themselves, these types can be integrated in any title of religion,IOW you can find god no matter what the label of the religion is. (but i confess also that i tend to lump all the bad religion into the catholic label)

Something has always told me that there was more than just empirical evidence. I really only don't go to church or anything because I don't like the idea of blind-obedience and being told that scientific ideas that are fairly provable by humanities' standards are just "false" because the only thing that's "true" is what's written in the Bible.

there are churches that believe the same as you, but they are hard to find.(i attend one now)

 

[X-Man2]

As a child I was forced to attend a christian school for my daily indoctrination.One fine day while at school we had an assembly in the Gym.A special Man came to visit us for the purpose of a little show and tell.Being around 8 yrs old then I pretty much believed it all hook,line and sinker.This special Man talked with us about a journey he and others had taken to Mount Ararat.After the talk of this journey came the show and tell objects.This Man showed us students small pcs of petrified wood encased in glass.Can you guess where he said it came from? Yeppers,this wood was from the ark itself.Proof!
You can imagine our surprise and excitement of this wood from the ark!

I was lucky enough to be born with enough common sense which enabled me to shed the whole damn religious garbage that was forced upon me as a child.

 

[synthesizer-patel]

1. Only animals 'on the surface of the earth' were involved,
therefore creatures living in water were exempt.

Wrong!
If the deluge that created the flood was fresh water then all marine animals would have perished - so they would have been taken aboard the ark.

likewise if we had a rain of salt water (but whoever heard of one of those) all fresh water animals would have died.

Either way Noah would have required extensive aquarium equipment.

2. The Creator could calm the animals for the duration of the
confinement similar to hibernation.

well perhaps, but that isn't a scientific answer, so it has to be discarded in a discussion of the scientific validity of the flood myth.

The most convincing evidence is
the remains of land animals. Some are groups of the same species
composed of young and old. Mammoths found frozen near the Artic
circle are preserved without deterioration. A quick death for all, and regardless of age.

That is not evidence of a flood

6. A better question, 'where did all the water come from?'. There
was a canopy of water vapor around the earth similar to venus which
provided a greenhouse effect. This and subterranean sources provided
the volume needed to flood the earth. After altering the geography,
the water would have settled in larger or more numerous bodies of
water and underground. The new water-land boundaries are what you
see today.

there is no evidence for any of that - its just some stuff that's been made up to cover the gaping holes

 

[synthesizer-patel]

Most of the people I know look at religion as more of a support system or some measure of spiritual well being, but I went to a protestant church (those are the less-retarded of the two, the other being Catholic).

I dunno Trav - you don't find too many Catholic Creationists

 

[phyti]

For those who doubt that, consider this...

Genesis 7:23 So the Lord destroyed every living thing that was on the surface of the ground, including people, animals, creatures that creep along the ground, and birds of the sky. They were wiped off the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark survived

...which contradicts this...

Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this)

-Yes, at the time he was observing and later, but before the deluge.
He states [gen 6:3] that he would only tolerate those conditions for 120 yr.

Numbers 13:33 We even saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak came from the Nephilim), and we seemed liked grasshoppers both to ourselves and to them.”

-The group (except Caleb) fabricated a story to avoid confronting
the inhabitants, out of fear or lack of faith in Yaweh or both.

...so clearly we have a grotesque contradiction. Noah and those with him in the ark were not the only survivors.

-No, you have a misunderstanding of the events.

The Nephilim survived too, since they were on the earth those days before the Deluge and also long, long after the Deluge.

- The Nephilim were offspring from relations between women of Earth
and spirit sons of Yaweh. This was another condition contrary to his
prpose for the earth, thus his judgement.

The descendants of Anak cannot have come from the Nephilim if the Nephilim were all killed during the "Flood."

-Knowing that Nu 13:33 is about a group lie, that is true.

From that you can conclude that

1) Yahweh can't kill the Nephilim; or
2) The Nephilm were a helluva lot smarter than Noah since they didn't need a god-thing to tell them how to build an ark.

It also shows that Yahweh failed, since the purpose of the "Flood" was to destroy all evil, and since Noah was the only righteous man, then the Nephilim were not righteous and they out-witted, out-smarted and thwarted the plans of Yahweh.

-The Nephilim were at the most hybrid humans, and part of a corrupt
earth, so they died.
All evil influences would not have been removed unless Satan and his
followers were destroyed, but that was reserved for a later time.
Isn't it a little foolish to compare the abilities of a human to
those of a supreme being?

 

[Saquist]

I was thinking this weekend while I was in the duck blind about the ludicrousness of Noah's Ark. For one, there are roughly 20,000 species of fish, 6,000 species of reptiles, 9,000 birds, 1,000 amphibians, and 15,000 species of mammals. That would take one hell of an ark to house all of those animals, plus the sheer resources required to feed them. There would also be the issue of cramped spaces and the animals fighting and killing each other, which would be unavoidable, therefor making some species extinct, since there was only one male and one female of each species. Then the issue of plant life being completely destroyed, thereby no food for the plant eating species. If the entire planet had been flooded, would there not be fossilized remains of sea life scattered across the continents? Next, with all life being destroyed, including flooded plant life, how was the earth's atmosphere oxygenated? Finally, where did all of that water go?

This marks several assumptions, that every species is preserved.
Only the Primaries were necessary.
Preying upon one another isn't a factor if one is accepting they were gathered orderly.
Earth's atmosphere isn't going to be depleted either
Even Jesus displayed miracles of feeding thousands with very little.

If you're going to even make this argument you have to do it seriously with the full scope of knowledge we have not just scientifically but scriptural.

 

[Stoniphi]

There's a story several thousand years older than that even.

That story would be....?

 

[iceaura]

1. Only animals 'on the surface of the earth' were involved,
therefore creatures living in water were exempt.

A month in or under thousands of feet of fresh water will kill most water animals as well.

Only a pair of each kind were needed, since breeding could produce
the variations. The largest land animals (elephant, rhino, etc.)
comprise only a small portion of all land animals.

Then you still need the entire body of evolutionary theory and millions of years, to produce the "variations".

No explanation is
given why the dinosaurs were not included.

The story specifically claims that all "kinds" were included.

2. The Creator could calm the animals for the duration of the
confinement similar to hibernation.

The Creator could also shrink them to fit into Noah's shoebox, for the duration of the flood, and re-expand them afterwards. If that kind of explanation is satisfactory.

3. The dove returned with a 'fresh' olive leaf as an indication of
drained land surface, so all vegetation was not destroyed.

Then all vegetation was not covered with thousands of feet of water for a month.

4. Realistically some water species would not survive the turbulence
of huge volumes of moving water, but this has to be taken in
context.

All currently exposed land was subjected to the force of hundreds of feet of moving water falling hundreds of feet in a few miles. For comparison, the Mississippi River is a couple of dozen feet deep and drops less than a thousand feet in over a thousand miles. For an example of what a much smaller flood of that type will do, check out the topography of the Scablands mentioned by Mi ke gal above.

Some are groups of the same species composed of young and old. Mammoths found frozen near the Artic circle are preserved without deterioration. A quick death for all, and regardless of age.

Drowning a mammoth in thousands of feet of rising rain water, and then draining it away to the ocean or sinkholes underground in a few days leaving their weeks-drowned carcasses stranded in flood debris, would not be a quick way to kill it (they could presumably swim, all elephants can) or a way likely to preserve groups in proximity, or a way likely to preserve their bodies undeteriorated.

5. I don't have a definite answer for this. There may be other means
of producing oxygen. Plant life recovers quickly in shallow basins
after the water recedes.

Even plants with the special features adapting them to shallow flooding would normally be killed by inundation under hundreds of feet of fresh water for a month.

6. A better question, 'where did all the water come from?'. There
was a canopy of water vapor around the earth similar to venus which
provided a greenhouse effect. This and subterranean sources provided
the volume needed to flood the earth.

You have first a greenhouse effect capable of steam-sterilizing the planet (on Venus, it melts lead), and second a huge volume of water flowing uphill and staying there for a month.

After altering the geography, the water would have settled in larger or more numerous bodies of water and underground. The new water-land boundaries are what you see today.

There is no such sequence possible - water does not wait around until after it has altered some geography and then flow into it.

Most of the people I know look at religion as more of a support system or some measure of spiritual well being, but I went to a protestant church (those are the less-retarded of the two, the other being Catholic).
”
I dunno Trav - you don't find too many Catholic Creationists

You do (it was an official Church position until fairly recently). They just aren't politically organized - an advantage of their sectarian politics being top-down.

A common Catholic work-around among the better educated, encountered among botanists and other scientists (Jesuit schools produce a lot of botanists), is that everything is a product of evolution except humans. Another is the God-guided evolution concept.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

A month in or under thousands of feet of fresh water will kill most water animals as well.

You haven't got the hang of this, have you?
Where science doesn't do the job, there are miracles to fill the gap.

With species. Just one kind of each animal went on the ark.
So one pair of birds. Doves.
Once in their separate ark cages, God made them fall into a deep sleep, so that they wouldn't be any trouble.
Then, when the ark landed, God multiplied them back into their separate "species", as the long-age-earth scientists call them, and transported them by miracle to their correct destinations.
To stop the greenhouse effect, God made a cooling breeze, and may have dimmed the Sun down a bit.
The water disappeared into deep caverns in the earth that God excavated for the purpose

Getting the idea now?
Creationist science only remains science as long as they can codge together some pseudo scientific explanation.
Failing that, God miracled it to happen.

 

[Stoniphi]

What - no ice giants???

 

[iceaura]

You haven't got the hang of this, have you?
Where science doesn't do the job, there are miracles to fill the gap.

Au contraire - I am preparing the ground for the introduction of my new book.

I got a look at the sales figures for Behe's opus, and realized that my life of poverty could be a thing of the past, with a little effort. The central idea is that the earth was small and with lighter gravity (explains giants, dinosaurs, etc), and then it got hit by a very large, very slowly moving (relative speed) ice comet or comets. That explains the flood, and absorbing all that water made the planet swell to its current size - separating the continents and the animals, all that stuff.

I have to keep the details back, pending publication, you understand. Don't want to get scooped.

 

[NMSquirrel]

, and absorbing all that water made the planet swell to its current size -

earth as a sponge??
how does that work?

 

[gmilam]

Au contraire - I am preparing the ground for the introduction of my new book.

I got a look at the sales figures for Behe's opus, and realized that my life of poverty could be a thing of the past, with a little effort. The central idea is that the earth was small and with lighter gravity (explains giants, dinosaurs, etc), and then it got hit by a very large, very slowly moving (relative speed) ice comet or comets. That explains the flood, and absorbing all that water made the planet swell to its current size - separating the continents and the animals, all that stuff.

I have to keep the details back, pending publication, you understand. Don't want to get scooped.

I don't think there's a shovel large enough to scoop that.