No religion can believe in an eternal soul

[NDS]

Infinite. All souls are actually part of one "supersoul" (God). They are separated from it, and then they go back (nirvana), and then they are separated again, forever.

If you reach nirvana, why would you go back? What's the point of trying to reach Nirvana then?

Yorda, please clarify this for me. Are the following statements correct:

1. In Christianity, there is a finite number of spirits/souls and at some point in time the physical realm will end and a final judgement will take place in which the final destination of everyone will be determined (heaven or hell). There is no recycling, after Jesus comes back it is either heaven or hell for eternity. If you are accepted into the new Heavenearth then you live in bliss for eternity as AN INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT WITH INDIVIDUAL MEMORIES. So you don't have to suffer anymore and God's purpose for you is fulfilled.

So in Christianity, God intentionally creates humanity (our spirits) for a specific purpose (restore the earth/void).

In Hinduism, God doesn't intentionally create us, we are simply a part of God (like DNA). Humanity is not unique and has no ULTIMATE goal or purpose. There is no Satan to restore the earth from, the earth is not unique.

Are these fair judgements?

Also, if we are all one supersoul/superspirit do we also have individual and separate spirits/souls (invisible, indivisible substances) which last forever, and do we retain this individuality in Nirvana? I know Hinduism is split on this issue between different schools, so I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

 

[Yorda]

If you reach nirvana, why would you go back?

because you have no choice. you can't stay in the same state forever because everything in the universe constantly changes. there is always a snake in paradise.

What's the point of trying to reach Nirvana then?

the meaning of life is to reach joy. even the point of nirvana is to reach joy...

 

[NDS]

If God is all powerful, why wouldn't he let us all stay in Nirvana for eternity? Why does he bring suffering and blindness and dis-enlightenment to us?

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Basically, if we have an invisible thing called a soul/spirit/whatever, than it really isn't eternal by nature. Since we had a beginning, we can have an end (namely, God can end it if he began it).

No, this is simply guesswork. It could have a beginning and no end. It could last for an infinite amount of time, for all you know. How can you know that something that began in the finite past does not endure for an infinite future? Whatever your answer is is simply your intuition, there is nothing inherently necessary in it.

 

[NDS]

You're right. I know nothing. But I can think things and have an opinion (I guess I don't really have that either, oh well).

All I'm saying is this: If a man (spirit) named God created us (human spirits) then that means we haven't always existed (otherwise he couldn't have created us). So by nature of our creation, yes, we can live forever but only if God doesn't take our existence away. So, in other words our existence is dependant on the decisions of and the existence of God, we are not eternal by nature if we were created. That's what I was getting at.

So, yes, if God created us then it is possible he gave us spirits which have the ability to last forever, but if so then they are still dependant on another being (God) to allow them to last forever. They are not independently eternal. But again, this is the Christian God we are talking about. In some sects of Hinduism I think souls/spirits actually are eternal (my bad LG), though there doesn't seem to really be any specific purpose for human existence like in Christianity.

 

[KennyJC]

Souls, spirits, whatever you want to call them, exist as something the brain produces mechanically. It can not survive death. It's plainly clear why we invented these notions of eternity since we will be dead in the blink of an eye, but you will die and it will be exactly as it was before your conception.

Get used to it mother fuckers.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

ND experiences are no more than electrochemical activity in the limbic system of the brain. It can be produced by stimulating the brain with electricity.

If we can stimulate the experience of hearing someone speak by stimulating the brain with electricity, does that mean that other people really can't speak. Wait, I think we have done that....

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

You're right. I know nothing. But I can think things and have an opinion (I guess I don't really have that either, oh well).

I wasn't saying you know nothing. I am pretty damn sure you know quite a bit. I find logical presentations often irritating, because they can be effective little knots in the brains of others.

All I'm saying is this: If a man (spirit) named God created us (human spirits) then that means we haven't always existed (otherwise he couldn't have created us). So by nature of our creation, yes, we can live forever but only if God doesn't take our existence away. So, in other words our existence is dependant on the decisions of and the existence of God, we are not eternal by nature if we were created. That's what I was getting at.

OK. I can go with that one more, at least in terms of the monotheisms. It might be a dependent infinite time.

So, yes, if God created us then it is possible he gave us spirits which have the ability to last forever, but if so then they are still dependant on another being (God) to allow them to last forever. They are not independently eternal. But again, this is the Christian God we are talking about. In some sects of Hinduism I think souls/spirits actually are eternal (my bad LG), though there doesn't seem to really be any specific purpose for human existence like in Christianity.

My sense of the mystical end of some Hinduisms is that they see us as a part of the One which they give different names. And we are eternal though perhaps not as 'Joe Barthes' or Britney.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar, thanks for the comments and basically saying that I'm a retard

No i cannot see the word retard in my post. I was pointing out the flaws in your thoughts. People do that in discussions all the time without looking upon each other as retarded. But as per usual a very negative attitude is being pasted upon me in this forum as a psychological assist to one who wants to reject what is being said.

God says in Genesis Chapter 1 verse 26,

"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
NKJV

I was taught that that means he (they?) created the sprits of the humans here (male and female). And then later in Genesis 2 he creates physical man and puts the spirit of Adam (created in Gen. 1) into this physical man.

You where taught by whom? God?

Think about it: According to Christianity, there will a finite and set number of spirits which will live as a human on earth. At some point, Jesus will end the physical realm/world/earth and will bring heaven down to earth.

Let's say that he returns on January 1, 2009. This would mean that X number of spirits have experienced life on earth. Let's say, just as an example, that exactly 1,304,402,494,202,282,282,029,029,202 individual spirits lived on earth starting from the Adam spirit's existence (the first spirit to live on earth in a human body).

Basically, I always thought that those exact number of spirits were created in Gen. 1 and that all those spirits waited in heaven until their turn to come down to earth. Is that accurate or way off?

Way off. Nothing in the Bible supports the pre-existence of humans in other forms.

Adstar, do you believe your spirit existed before you existed as a physical human? If so, that would support my interpretation of Gen. 1:26.

No i do not believe i existed as a spirit before i existed in human form.

Note: All this discussion of eternal souls is trivial and doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's just fun to ponder. That's why we're all on this site right? To think and ponder what the hell reality we are in and the nature of reality.

Each one is here for their own reasons NDS, Part of growing in awareness is realizing that 10 people can be doing the same thing and have 10 different motivations for doing it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Leo Volont]

What you seem to be doing is attacking what has never been an intentional argument, for Eternal Souls, but what has simply been a mistaken usage by people who had meant to say IMMORTAL SOUL.

So, yes, you argument is wonderfully effective for telling us that some people had been using their words poorly.

But what they had always meant was IMMORTAL SOUL.

You see, their concern is not that they had ever been created and had a beginning, but what worries them is that they should have an END, that they should cease to be. While being Eternal subsumes both ends of the temporal line, those concerned for their Immortality care only for the line pointing into the future.

Christianity, or more specifically the Bible, states that the spirits of humans were created by God in God's image. To be created means that they must not have existed before, so human spirits (and angels for that matter) can't possibly be eternal because eternity goes in both directions.

In Buddhism they just say up front that there is no such thing as an invisible thing called a soul, and especially one which is eternal.

In Hinduism and Islam, souls are created as well, and this creation process never stops. Again, if something was created than it can't be eternal.

I just thought it was interesting to point out that many religions say that the soul is eternal, but it can't be since it was created. And if the saying, "Anything that has a beginning has an end" has any merit, then there is something to be said about an eternal soul that was created, especially created by another being.

Basically, if we have an invisible thing called a soul/spirit/whatever, than it really isn't eternal by nature. Since we had a beginning, we can have an end (namely, God can end it if he began it).

 

[lightgigantic]

Thank you for the scripture text LG. It seems that there is one religion which may believe in an eternal soul: Hinduism.

Tell me though, how many spirits/souls (not bodies) exist right now? If you state that no new spirits/souls are ever created, then there must be a set number of individual spirits/souls in existence right now, right? This is all semantics and other unimportant shit but its fun to talk about and ponder.

So again, are new spirits/souls ever created according to your branch of Hinduism? If not, then at some point in time, is it possible that EVERY SINGLE SPIRIT/SOUL (not body) can reach Nirvana? If so, then what will the point of the physical realm (reincarnation, humans, animals) be since there will be no spirits to possess them?

This is fun to talk about to me. I'm not trying to disprove Hinduism or anything so don't take it that way (actually, I think Hinduism is very plausible in a lot of ways and makes sense in a lot of ways).

To get back to the quote again

BG 2.20: For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

The idea is that the soul is not created (in the sense of linear time - ie having a "beginning") but is a contingent property of god.
For eg, heat is a contingent property of fire - for as long as fire exists, heat exists .... and in the case of an eternal fire you would have eternal heat. IOW we are (but one of) god's (eternal) potencies.

As for the exact number, there must also be an exact number of atoms in the material creation too, but I guess only god knows what that is (IOW for us, it is practically infinity)

You have kind of hit off on the right direction though - since we are eternal the only thing we can have an eternal relationship with is god in god's realm - in fact that is where we came from - we stay in this world (trying out various temporary relationships with other temporary things) for as long as we are determined to (there is no time limit for how long we stay here ... after all, the time factor is another eternal potency of the lord (specific to the material world).

 

[flameofanor5]

Spirit and soul are two different things. Soul is mind/will/emotion. The Bible says your spirit is eternal. I believe it. It also says we are spirits, we live in bodies, and we have souls.

:thumbsup:

 

[flameofanor5]

:roflmao::roflmao:

What you seem to be doing is attacking what has never been an intentional argument, for Eternal Souls, but what has simply been a mistaken usage by people who had meant to say IMMORTAL SOUL.

So, yes, you argument is wonderfully effective for telling us that some people had been using their words poorly.

But what they had always meant was IMMORTAL SOUL.

You see, their concern is not that they had ever been created and had a beginning, but what worries them is that they should have an END, that they should cease to be. While being Eternal subsumes both ends of the temporal line, those concerned for their Immortality care only for the line pointing into the future.