News from the Colonies - America's War in Iraq

[DeeCee]

When did we put the Ba'ath party in power?

Err 1963.
There's a lot of history there but I'll keep it simple for you..

http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html


at least the women will have the right to not be tortured and raped

Who sez?

Not the ex prime minister..

Human rights abuses in Iraq are now as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein and are even in danger of eclipsing his record, according to the country's first Prime Minister after the fall of Saddam's regime.
People are doing the same as [in] Saddam's time and worse,' Ayad Allawi told The Observer. 'It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things.'

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1651789,00.html

LoL

Hey if you don't like the message you can always shoot the messenger... Right?

The one indisputable fact, though, is that part of the memo - 10 lines to be precise - concerns a conversation between Bush and Blair regarding Al Jazeera, the Arabic satellite television station that the US accuses of being a mouthpiece for al-Qaeda. According to those familiar with the memo's contents, Bush floated the idea of bombing the Qatar-based station.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1651765,00.html

Qatar?
Ain't they an ally?

Ho Hum. The world keeps turning and america just keeps losing it's credibility.

Dee Cee

 

[DarkThorn]

Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

Art. 14. Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour. - I haven't seen the British or Americas show much respect for anybody since the beginning of the conflict.

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. - Hmmmm, photos, anyone?

Art. 25. Prisoners of war shall be quartered under conditions as favourable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power who are billeted in the same area. The said conditions shall make allowance for the habits and customs of the prisoners and shall in no case be prejudicial to their health. - I wonder if American soldiers have ever been billeted in cages, with sacks over their heads and their limbs shackled?


All of the above is just a snippet from the Geneva Convention. I can pull the human rights declaration out too.

 

[Baron Max]

...(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Take careful note of the following (copied directly from the above):

...fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance

...operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war

The Iraqi insurgents fulfill neither of those criteria. Thus, according to the Geneva Convention, they are NOT militia, etc. and therefore the Geneva Convention does NOT apply to them when in war or when captured. The Iraqi "insurgents" are nothing but common criminals as the like of the Mafia or other such criminal organizations ...they are NOT prisoners of war!

Baron Max

 

[DarkThorn]

Ok then Baron if the Geneva Convention does not apply how about The Declaration of Human Rights -

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

If The Declaration of Human Rights does not apply, then i could go and get more from other sources. My point is not only aimed at discrediting the war in Iraq or the attacks on Afghanistan, etc. Nor is it to put sole blame on Britain or America for crimes against humanity. I can see that the 'terrorists/insurgents' are also violating the rights of others. What i am trying to do is show people that The Wests foreign policy and shawdy abuse of power creates terror groups who in turn seek revenge on the interests of their enemy and vice versa. If terror comes to a country for no known reason (unlikely) then that country turns to violent and inhumane acts of war to seekrevenge. You can not compare the Iraqi insurgents who are fighting for the Americans and Brits to leave their country, for a President they loved, whatever it is, they do not compare to the Mafia at all. The Mafia make money throught, robbery, drug smuggling, property, contraband, etc. Ok, so they terrorise a few people along the way but they are doing it because they can, the insurgents do what they do because they feel they have to.

 

[Baron Max]

Ok then Baron if the Geneva Convention does not apply how about The Declaration of Human Rights -

It's just a bunch of psycho-babble, idealistic bullshit that means nothing whatsoever because there is no enforcement of those idiotic ideals! Without the power to enforce laws, laws are nothing but hot air and bullshit idealism.

Baron Max

 

[changa]

Take careful note of the following (copied directly from the above):

...fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance

...operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war
Baron Max

I agree, these are important criteria in judging a nation's actions. The British military's habit of disguising themselves as Iraqis is dispicable, as is the American habit of toturing prisoners. Meaning that the enemies of both nations are not bond by the geneva convention in any conflict against them, ad have not been for many years.

 

[DarkThorn]

It's just a bunch of psycho-babble, idealistic bullshit that means nothing whatsoever because there is no enforcement of those idiotic ideals! Without the power to enforce laws, laws are nothing but hot air and bullshit idealism.

Baron Max

We will see what happens. The world looks set to stand up and take this 'psycho babble' seriously. George Bush and Tony Blair might escape being tried for war crimes but i imagine in the future these conventions, charters, declarations or whatever they might be called will be taken more seriously and anybody found to be breaching them will be held to account.

I wonder what is wrong with idealism? If we had no idea for peace then we'd all be fucked. You seem to have a problem with it but i see it as a way forward. Provided people are not being killed for 'so called' peace.

 

[Baron Max]

The world looks set to stand up and take this 'psycho babble' seriously.

Oh, really? And what "world" would that be? Please explain ...and don't forget to explain how that "world" actually includes all of the people in the world. Or is it just YOUR "world"? ...excluding how many people?

I wonder what is wrong with idealism?

Idealism is just a bunch of words, that's all. And without realists to deal with the crime in the world, idealists would be cringing in terror and screaming for protection! Ahh, but as soon as that protection arrives and the idealists are safe, they begin almost immediately to spew about the "rights" of people .....and always seem so fuckin' concerned for those criminals from whom they earlier screamed and demanded protection! I.e., idealists are the highest form of hypocrits!

Baron Max

 

[DarkThorn]

First of all the world i talk about is the whole world, the real live physical world. Secondly pay attention to opinion polls, demonstrations, etc they should give you an idea of how these scales are actually sitting. The last opinion poll in America showed that only 34% of the population were now for the war. If you even cared a bit about humanity then you would follow the countless rallies, demonstrations, pickets all around the world defending human rights. Infact if it was possible for me to find reliable statistics to prove my theory that the majority of the world are idealists then i would hand them to you now. The problem is that some people want to be heard, others are not allowed to be heard and the rest are not sure. Then in the corner you have a very small amount of ?realists? who think they actually help and save people??? Where you are getting that nonsense from i do not know. Realists do not save anybody, they just think they are right about everything. C'mon lads, get your bombs and guns ready, the idealists need our help. We have to go killing some terrorists, lets do it.
A few months later according to you once the idealists feel safe they are then screaming about human rights and peace. Ehm, i remember back in 2003 the majority of the British public voting against going to war with America. Nobody was for it at all but we were not listened to. No idealist feels safe now that the realists have 'saved us'. We are now more at risk from attacks than we ever were. You arse biscuit.

I think you will find that realists are the hypocrites. They go on about creating a better world by going out and getting the job done but all they really do is torture and kill the 'enemy' if one even exists at all.

You have a very poor attitude towards the world and the people who live in it.

 

[Baron Max]

First of all the world i talk about is the whole world, the real live physical world. Secondly pay attention to opinion polls, demonstrations, etc ...

Were those opinion polls also conducted in central Africa? In the upper highlands of India and Pakistan? In the jungles of South America? If not, how could you say anything about how the "whole world" feels about anything?

You have a very poor attitude towards the world and the people who live in it.

Well, that's what happens when you live closely with violent, greedy, egocentric humans for some 60 years! One only need get off their ego-pedestal and shut down their idealistic dreams for a while, and look around at the world and the violence and the greed and the pollution and the death, to know that humans suck giant donkey dick and, of all the animals on Earth that are worth saving, humans are at the very bottom of the list!

The only reason intelligent people can't see that or understand it, is because of their own giant ego! You can't see it, DarkThorn, because ye're too busy seeing only what you want to see. Open your eyes to the real world of the violence and greed and human nature.

Baron Max

 

[DarkThorn]

But if i am only seeing what i want to see then who is to say you are not seeing only what you want to see?? I see the violence and greed and that is what i am against. What i cannot work out is if you are against it, accepting it or revelling in it?

Also in reply to the first comment. The opinion polls come i assume from developed countries. I am almost 100% certain though that even the poorest countries in the world disagree with war and torture. Seen as how most of them have lived it all of their lives.

At the end of the day we could all be wrong or right. I do know i won't give up fighting for the things i believe in peacefully if i can. If i ever need to use violence then i will.

 

[Baron Max]

I see the violence and greed and that is what i am against.

That's like saying you're against the deserts because there ain't no water on them! Of course you're against violence and greed ....but the key factor is to realize that it exists and will continue to exist, then work WITH those human traits to solve some problem or issue. If you just say you hate violence and greed, then ignore it in your solutions, you'll fail every single time!

What i cannot work out is if you are against it, accepting it or revelling in it?

How can one NOT accept violence and greed? It's like saying you don't like air pollution, and so refuse to breathe! ...LOL! Violence and greed is all around us, all the time, in even the most mundane situations. If you don't accept it as fact, then how can you ever get anything accomplished?

It's also interesting that almost no one would acknowledge that they liked war, torture, death, killing, etc, and yet we have those things going on all over the world, all the time, and have been since the beginning of human history. Don't you see clearly that someone is lying????? ...or else the pollsters are very carefully screening who they ask about it ...like they never polled Saddam Hussein or Robert Mugabe or ....?

See what I mean? If everyone, as you say, hates torture and violence and war and killing, then who are these "alien beings" who are doing all of it?

If i ever need to use violence then i will.

There ya' go. See? Even you, when confronted with failure, will resort to violence and torture and war and killing and death! And yet you try to hold yourself out as a peaceful individual?

Baron Max

 

[DarkThorn]

Oh goodness me.

I never claimed to be peaceful or violent. I am trying to point out what others including myself think is wrong, which is the torture of Iraqi people and the war itself because it is illegitimate. I also tried to point out in another thread that i agree with particular types of terrorism so how could i claim to be peaceful? It would just be nice to see things done peacefully.

You always completely misread what i say which is annoying.

And i see who are lying very clearly - The Americans and British are lying.

Clearly you are old and suffering some kind of degenerative brain disease so from here on out i will refrain from trying to discuss anything with you. I'd hate to be the one that causes that last single brain cell to burst.

 

[Baron Max]

Oh goodness me.

Clearly you are old and suffering some kind of degenerative brain disease....

Oooh, good argument! Okay, you win ......I agree with everything you've said on any and all subjects, and any future opinions or thoughts that you might have. Forgive me for my brain disease ..it's a terrible thing, indeed.

Baron Max

 

[DarkThorn]

Good. I appreciate it. I hope you get better soon or at the very least die painlessly. Keep it real, my American brother!

 

[The Devil Inside]

Good. I appreciate it. I hope you get better soon or at the very least die painlessly. Keep it real, my American brother!

LOL keep it real?!

ive been a member of sciforums for a few years, and i have never heard Baron Max say ANYTHING remotely resembling reality. he is purely right wing, pro republican/neocon, pat robertson, and ignorant (purposely?) toward what we like to call the "human condition".

it is best to ignore him altogether, and not get sucked into his neofascist opinionwars.

i left america and moved to europe because i see more and more Americans behaving like this person. my life has never been happier.

proud to be an american,
The Devil Inside

 

[Mr. G]

i left america and moved to europe because i see more and more Americans behaving like this person.

I'm almost certain you were not born in Mexico.

Funny that Mexicans find Europe less attractive than you do.

You suffer from Lettuce allergy, right?

I'm being generous, of course.

The true test is if you've renounced your US citizenship. Now that would be the really principled position.

Have you mailed your passport back to the US?

Didn't think so.

 

[The Devil Inside]

apparently you didnt read the last part of my post:
proud to be an american.

just because i dont like the right wing conservative assclowns controlling everything and taking away our freedoms, doesnt mean i dont like america.

i will be moving back to america as soon as the damage bush has done is fixed.
it isnt about principle, its about not wanting to be around douchebags.
got it, corky?

 

[Mr. G]

proud to be an american. ... got it, corky?

Yeah. I got it. You're a small-case "a" American.

You're a runner. Flight before fight.

Can't compete with your betters, so you run to your equals.

Got it, just fine.

 

[The Devil Inside]

wow.
it is the duty of americans to criticize their government. if i dont feel safe doing so in the usa, why wouldnt i go somewhere else to do it?

and, if you read ANYTHING i have ever posted.... you will see that i rarely, if ever, use my shift key. if the use of one finger when typing a word implies patriotism, then you sir, are a better man than i.

i run from nothing. i have been sentenced to jail sentences many times in the past for questioning the validity of state and local laws to the face of a judge.
every single time, i have been released within 2 days of my sentencing because it was found that i was correct.

whenever you point a finger, 3 point back at you. dont forget that, mister holier than thou.

america (as a society) could learn alot from europeans. dont belittle people from your safe, middle class home, across an ocean....until you know how they live, and the system by which THEY GOVERN THEMSELVES.
do some research on european living, and THEN preach to me about "betters" and "not as good as Mr. G's"

you sir, are small minded. period.
:m: