New UK Bullying Law

Asguard said:
what is wrong with expecting a LAW to actually DEFINE something, your a lawyer for fuck sake, what's wrong with YOU!

Oh and nice way to flip the scenario, firstly you state that the person who was going to commit suicide was the abuser and now your stating that the other person is pushing them to commit suicide, you don't see that you have just proved the point. Laws need to be defined in there scope, I don't know how more plain I could make that.

Ok lets look at "Assault" as an example


Ie the purpose of the act is not only to define a penalty but first and foremost to define the illegal act that the law is intended to prevent.
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Firstly, I didn't even bring up someone committing suicide. I said that some use the threat of suicide as a form of psychological and emotional abuse (in other words, an example).

And secondly, what in the bejesus are you even on about?

Laws are fairly clear. What it does not take into account is lunatics twisting every single scenario around into knots and then going 'see, it doesn't work'.

We are talking about a proposed piece of legislation in the UK which would make emotional and psychological abuse illegal. NOT Australia or Australian law.

Really, it's not that hard.
 
Asguard said:
laws should be black and white
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Well, at least that relieves me of my worry that you personally were guilty of the perfidy you appeared to be defending.

It's now clear you are either profoundly ignorant or simply stupid.

Black and white? Seriously? Am I on candid camera? Can you hear yourself? Black and white? What's the weather like on your planet? Jesus Christ on a rubber crutch, that's the most foolish thing I've heard all week, and I watched eastenders the other day.

Black and white? Dear me. The English language contains no word I know of to adequately express my contempt for such primitive drivel.

I mean what the fuck? What the fucking fuck? Black and white?

Get a hold of yourself man.
 
michael_taylor said:
Well, at least that relieves me of my worry that you personally were guilty of the perfidy you appeared to be defending.

It's now clear you are either profoundly ignorant or simply stupid.

Black and white? Seriously? Am I on candid camera? Can you hear yourself? Black and white? What's the weather like on your planet? Jesus Christ on a rubber crutch, that's the most foolish thing I've heard all week, and I watched eastenders the other day.

Black and white? Dear me. The English language contains no word I know of to adequately express my contempt for such primitive drivel.

I mean what the fuck? What the fucking fuck? Black and white?

Get a hold of yourself man.
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Hmmm.. I think you found enough words thus far to express your contempt.

Lets not have everyone get over excited. So lets cut back on the red cordial while posting, shall we?

Relax..

It is easy to become angry, believe me, I have been there. So relax.. and laugh at the stupidity of it all..


images
 
Bells said:
relax.
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Yes, you're probably right.

I apologize to anyone ( including Asguard) who felt offended by my inappropriately profane comment. Please bear in mind that the target was that particular way of thinking, rather than the individuals who have had the misfortune of being infected by it.
 
michael_taylor said:
Yes, you're probably right.

I apologize to anyone ( including Asguard) who felt offended by my inappropriately profane comment. Please bear in mind that the target was that particular way of thinking, rather than the individuals who have had the misfortune of being infected by it.
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I am not offended. Amused, yes.

Asguard's way of thinking is not unique, Mr Taylor.

I have spent several minutes trying to track down this proposed piece of legislation and thus far, I have been unsuccessful. But the few tidbits offered in the opening post, well the tidbits from the media at least, Asguard's reaction is exactly what it [media] was aiming for. Sensationalising and making it seem like something silly.

Asguard isn't looking at it as a law that would fall under the banner of domestic violence, which from the OP, that is exactly what it is intended for. The wording in the OP makes it seem trivial. And even Asguard earlier claims that women bully more in a relationship, without proof of course. I suspect he objects to the wording of 'men who bully women', while ignoring thaht the wording will probably fall along the lines of 'partners who bully'.

So he focuses on the fact that BDSM is illegal if it leaves permanent injury or is deemed too violent. Thus far, from my understanding, most judges are wary about intruding into the private sexual lives of individuals. But he fails to recognise one component that makes the two areas distinctly different. And that is the issue of consent. And he states that it will be hard to prove. Domestic violence is unfortunately not uncommon and adding emotional and psychological abuse under the umbrella term that domestic violence has become is something that should have happened years ago. Unfortunately, not everyone will view it that way.
 
Bells, considering I personally know 2 women who have cried rape;

my sister-in-law right up to the point where the police pointed out there were more holes in her story than a sive and STRONGLY advised her to drop the case, not even her sister believes her now and both her and the other girl went back to the guys, my Sister-in-law after moving to Singapore with her parents and then fighting them to come back so she could go back to screwing the guy who supposedly raped her;

I have very little faith left in humanity. Do I think the polies are being evil or manipulative here? NO actually I would love to see this kind of abuse stamped out but my concern is that if the legislation isn't specific enough and if its to hard to prove guilt it will end up becoming a tool to be manipulated in divorce cases and mud sticks. There is a reason you cant name someone charged with a sex crime in SA, its because the government knows dam well that a) not everyone tells the truth and b) an accusation like that can ruin someone's life
 
Bells on my phone so I can't quote.. your first comment on post #9 can you Read? He stated in the actual quote that u quoted "in my experience"
 
sifreak21 said:
Bells on my phone so I can't quote.. your first comment on post #9 can you Read? He stated in the actual quote that u quoted "in my experience"
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And "in my experience", that has never been the case and it has been a 50/50 split. And I have a hell of a lot of experience in dealing with domestic violence issues.

But you did not see me making such a claim, did you? No.

Here is what he claimed:


Yea bells except 2 points, 1) based on what was posted in my experience its WOMEN who are more guilty of acting this way than men ​


That is a very big claim. Yet he provides absolutely no support for it. Nothing to back it up.

_________________________________________________________________

Asguard said:
Bells, considering I personally know 2 women who have cried rape;
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Hmmmm...

my sister-in-law right up to the point where the police pointed out there were more holes in her story than a sive and STRONGLY advised her to drop the case, not even her sister believes her now and both her and the other girl went back to the guys, my Sister-in-law after moving to Singapore with her parents and then fighting them to come back so she could go back to screwing the guy who supposedly raped her;
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Which has nothing to do with this subject.

Did you ever think to ask her why she "cried rape", as you so kindly put it?

Rape is sex without consent. Just because she was unable to prove it does not mean that something did not happen.

Do I think the polies are being evil or manipulative here? NO actually I would love to see this kind of abuse stamped out but my concern is that if the legislation isn't specific enough and if its to hard to prove guilt it will end up becoming a tool to be manipulated in divorce cases and mud sticks.
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Do you think domestic abuse laws are dangerous because there can be some false accusations?

Domestic violence is illegal Asguard. The proposal is to include psychological and emotional abuse under the domestic violence umbrella. There is no reason to panic over it.
 
HA, you just proved my point

Just because she was unable to prove it does not mean that something did not happen.
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So you think that no one ever cries rape huh? it cant happen? She lied bells, she had no credibility with her own FAMILY because of her own actions. Hell I was the first one to take her to the cop shop as soon as she said it, Her sister and I were the ones who helped her and neither of us believe her any more because of her own actions and comments. Why should HIS life be destroyed because she is psychotic? (not in the medical sense, she's just a fruit loop) because that's what you basically said. Hell you have no idea about the information I have about the case and the reasons HER OWN SISTER and I don't trust her but yet you defend her.

I personally know of 4 relationships which would fall under domestic violence acts. The 2 I quoted before were the women manipulating the rape laws for god knows what reason. Hell I guess that's psychological abuse against there male partners. The third one I have talked about before where possibly they were abusing each other (but his was the more obvious and physical when he stabbed her on my front lawn) but no matter how many times we called the cops and offered to testify SHE sent them away. The fourth is quite similar, it was so bad that my aunt and uncle took custody of there child but SHE chose to stay in that relationship.

I think the biggest problem is actually getting people to LEAVE the situation, not changing the laws bells. But yes mud sticks (as you yourself JUST PROVED), and its feasible that this type of law could be used as a weapon, especially in divorce proceedings.
 
Asguard said:
HA, you just proved my point



So you think that no one ever cries rape huh? it cant happen? She lied bells, she had no credibility with her own FAMILY because of her own actions. Hell I was the first one to take her to the cop shop as soon as she said it, Her sister and I were the ones who helped her and neither of us believe her any more because of her own actions and comments. Why should HIS life be destroyed because she is psychotic? (not in the medical sense, she's just a fruit loop) because that's what you basically said. Hell you have no idea about the information I have about the case and the reasons HER OWN SISTER and I don't trust her but yet you defend her.

I personally know of 4 relationships which would fall under domestic violence acts. The 2 I quoted before were the women manipulating the rape laws for god knows what reason. Hell I guess that's psychological abuse against there male partners. The third one I have talked about before where possibly they were abusing each other (but his was the more obvious and physical when he stabbed her on my front lawn) but no matter how many times we called the cops and offered to testify SHE sent them away. The fourth is quite similar, it was so bad that my aunt and uncle took custody of there child but SHE chose to stay in that relationship.

I think the biggest problem is actually getting people to LEAVE the situation, not changing the laws bells. But yes mud sticks (as you yourself JUST PROVED), and its feasible that this type of law could be used as a weapon, especially in divorce proceedings.
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So your option is to have no laws at all?

Just in case someone is 'crying rape'?

Or is it because you seem to believe that women will manipulate the law to their own advantage?
 
Asguard said:
You know its getting really hard not to call you an idiot bells.
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Thus far, in a thread about a proposal to overhaul the domestic violence laws in the UK, which would criminalise psychological and emotional abuse, you have protested fairly vehemently against it and complained about it, advised that in your experience, women use more psychological and emotional abuse without any proof to substantiate your claims. You then went on a rant against laws in the UK which make BDSM that results in permanent injury illegal, and then gave us your commentary on two women who apparently 'cried rape'. And then gave us a little spiel about women manipulating rape laws (and thus, implying that women would abuse this sort of domestic violence laws) and complained about how "mud sticks".

Do you see a pattern there?
 
yes, I don't trust ANYONE, for Christ sake the law doesn't trust anyone either. That's why we have trials, that's why we have a presumption of innocence. If people could be trusted then we wouldn't have laws in the first place but then you would just walk into the police station and say "x did y" and they would be locked up, however the government and the courts realise that you just cant trust people that much and hence there is the matter of burden of proof. Why am I having to explain this to you? you say your a lawyer, didn't you do ANY defence law at uni?

Just like people psychologically abuse there partner, other people (or possibly the SAME people) will use these laws themselves to abuse and therefore the laws have to be able to be PROVED. Got it now? did you put your brain back in? I support laws to abolish abuse, what I don't support is those laws THEMSELVES then BECOMING a vehicle for the very abuse they are supposed to be stamping out
 
Asguard said:
yes, I don't trust ANYONE, for Christ sake the law doesn't trust anyone either. That's why we have trials, that's why we have a presumption of innocence. If people could be trusted then we wouldn't have laws in the first place but then you would just walk into the police station and say "x did y" and they would be locked up, however the government and the courts realise that you just cant trust people that much and hence there is the matter of burden of proof. Why am I having to explain this to you? you say your a lawyer, didn't you do ANY defence law at uni?

Just like people psychologically abuse there partner, other people (or possibly the SAME people) will use these laws themselves to abuse and therefore the laws have to be able to be PROVED. Got it now? did you put your brain back in? I support laws to abolish abuse, what I don't support is those laws THEMSELVES then BECOMING a vehicle for the very abuse they are supposed to be stamping out
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What I object with your stance is that you are taking the easy way out. To you, because some or the minute few may abuse the law to their own benefit, it is best to not give them that chance and damn everyone else.

And that is what I find somewhat off-putting.

Psychological and emotional abuse is domestic abuse. And it should be illegal because the damage it does is long lasting and sometimes will last forever. But for you, because there are a few who may manipulate that law (as some manipulate most laws) for their own benefit, then you won't support it.

The majority it would serve is what you need to consider. Not the minority who may abuse it to a certain extent.
 
Bells see if this is clear enough for you, I AGREE WITH THEM MAKING IT ILLEGAL. My issues are about how you structure the legislation, not the principle and im baffled as to why someone questioning how a piece of legislation is structured raises your wrath
 
Asguard said:
Bells see if this is clear enough for you, I AGREE WITH THEM MAKING IT ILLEGAL. My issues are about how you structure the legislation, not the principle and im baffled as to why someone questioning how a piece of legislation is structured raises your wrath
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And I am stunned that you can judge and comment about the structure of this legislation based solely on 4 lines in the OP since this is just a proposal and we know nothing about it and the link itself does not work.

You are arguing on a 'what if' scenario, which is frankly ridiculous. The only thing you haven't thrown at his is the kitchen sink. Regardless of how it will be structured or may be structured, someone out there in the wilds of the UK will find a way to circumvent it for their own means, as some poeple do with most laws.
 
Asguard said:
So you think that no one ever cries rape huh? it cant happen? She lied bells, she had no credibility with her own FAMILY because of her own actions. Hell I was the first one to take her to the cop shop as soon as she said it, Her sister and I were the ones who helped her and neither of us believe her any more because of her own actions and comments. Why should HIS life be destroyed because she is psychotic? (not in the medical sense, she's just a fruit loop) because that's what you basically said. Hell you have no idea about the information I have about the case and the reasons HER OWN SISTER and I don't trust her but yet you defend her.

I personally know of 4 relationships which would fall under domestic violence acts. The 2 I quoted before were the women manipulating the rape laws for god knows what reason. Hell I guess that's psychological abuse against there male partners. The third one I have talked about before where possibly they were abusing each other (but his was the more obvious and physical when he stabbed her on my front lawn) but no matter how many times we called the cops and offered to testify SHE sent them away. The fourth is quite similar, it was so bad that my aunt and uncle took custody of there child but SHE chose to stay in that relationship.
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Just curious but aren't there laws that protect against a false accusation of rape? Also wouldn't threats of rape accusations be considered a form of bullying that could be prosecuted under the new laws? Just asking, as I think bullying is a serious crime that adversely affects millions of people every day.
 
KilljoyKlown said:
Just curious but aren't there laws that protect against a false accusation of rape?
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That's where charges such as wasting police time come into it (among other things - I believe perjury and contempt might also play into it).
 
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