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the fact is, that no matter where that evidence resides, an experience did take place. and if the experience took place, then it's not imagination.

This is not true and that's the point. A hallucination for instance can be extremely realistic, but that does not make it 'true' - and when the only confirmation you have of that 'experience' is your own mind, you can never establish it as being anything other than fantasy - regardless to how adamant you are to yourself and others that you did indeed have a 'real' experience.

You hear a god, it talks to you and appears to you. If nobody else can see it or hear it, not only can you not establish it as real to them, but how can you even do so to yourself? How do you determine that what you 'experienced' in your mind was a real experience? Because you think it was?

Snakelord, you had a blackout.

You were watching?
 
This is not true and that's the point. A hallucination for instance can be extremely realistic, but that does not make it 'true' - and when the only confirmation you have of that 'experience' is your own mind, you can never establish it as being anything other than fantasy - regardless to how adamant you are to yourself and others that you did indeed have a 'real' experience.

You hear a god, it talks to you and appears to you. If nobody else can see it or hear it, not only can you not establish it as real to them, but how can you even do so to yourself? How do you determine that what you 'experienced' in your mind was a real experience? Because you think it was?



You were watching?


i have a lot of corroboration. but here's the thing...out here in this forum it's never left up in the air like that. it's labeled "fantasy", and that is an opinion, and one of someone who has never experienced such things as i indeed have.

just because something is undocumented and/or unexplainable, does not mean that it's imagined. and the corroboration with me is in the why. there's a lot of "why" in what i've experienced. not to mention it's backed up by scripture and by a lot of other people who have experienced similar things. i mean, do you think you imagined missing an hour of your life, or if you were to have some flash back or memory that seemed to explain what happened to you, would you still think it's your imagination? what about if your explanation fit with the experiences and the explanations of 1000's of other people?
 
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Lori,

I could not come to the conclusion that your experiences were fantasy, but it's well established that the human mind can experience things that are hallucinations, delusions, optical illusions, daydreams, and the like. Unless you can show some consistent phenomenon, not observer dependent, no rational person should interpret your feelings/ observations as representing any real force/deity/ESP, etc...
 
Lori,

I could not come to the conclusion that your experiences were fantasy, but it's well established that the human mind can experience things that are hallucinations, delusions, optical illusions, daydreams, and the like. Unless you can show some consistent phenomenon, not observer dependent, no rational person should interpret your feelings/ observations as representing any real force/deity/ESP, etc...

but what if there was a reason why it happened? and i was going to say one which was outside of myself...a reason or an explanation that had to do with more people than just me, but then again, what if it did just have to do with me? it's still a reason, and a reason is an explanation, and if it's explained or it has a purpose, then why or how could it be just an imagination, or fiction?
 
It's reason enough for you personally, but for others to accept it as a genuine phenomenon, there are certain standards that must be met. In other words, there may be something real going on, but there is, as yet, no scientific confirmation of it.
 
It's reason enough for you personally, but for others to accept it as a genuine phenomenon, there are certain standards that must be met. In other words, there may be something real going on, but there is, as yet, no scientific confirmation of it.

well, what if there was no scientific confirmation but the reason made sense and it helped me, or other people, or served a purpose, or perpetuated some outcome? then would it be a genuine phenomenon? would that make it real?
 
well, what if there was no scientific confirmation but the reason made sense and it helped me, or other people, or served a purpose, or perpetuated some outcome? then would it be a genuine phenomenon? would that make it real?
Dont be silly lori, it's is purely a subjective phenomena, just by default you cannot deem it as real. But to you it's as real as anything.
no matter how you look at it, a subjective belief cannot be separated from an hallucination, a dream, a fantasy, an illusion, a delusion, etc...
 
Dont be silly lori, it's is purely a subjective phenomena, just by default you cannot deem it as real. But to you it's as real as anything.
no matter how you look at it, a subjective belief cannot be separated from an hallucination, a dream, a fantasy, an illusion, a delusion, etc...

no, i'm not talking about a belief. i'm talking about an occurrence. one that i think makes the belief objective. like missing time. that's not a belief, it's an occurrence. now what if there was a reason for it, and it was substantiated, whether or not it could be observed, or measured, or explained? is that real?
 
To Scientologists Xenu appears to be real.
The feelings they have are real.
Pretty much exactly the same way you feel about your religous beleif they feel about theirs.
In reality though, I highly doubt there is a real live Xenu.
You probably agree with me.
Now replace Xenu with Allah, Athena, Zeus, Odin etc...

Michael
 
I just thought I'd give you a heads up here JNS888. The deck is stacked against you on this forum. Though this is called a religion forum, the majority of the people here resent the idea of a supernatural being, and will laugh you to scorn for it.

They believe science will eventually explain everything. They have great faith in that though they won't live long enough to know for sure. On the otherhand, they don't have a reasonable explanation for the mystery of faith except they think it is "delusion". Really, where did the delusion come from? I've heard all their so-called "explanations" and none of them shows an understanding of faith -- it's like a blind person explaining vision to someone that has eyesight. I apologize if someone doesn't like the analogy, but that is a believer's perception of atheism. The issue here is not intelligence because we know so many great scientists were also men of faith, but rather it's the hardness of their hearts -- that is the real issue.

What they think is wisdom the Bible calls foolishness, and after they die the Bible will still be here for anyone to read. An open Bible will be the real data even centuries after they cease to exist. That's the long-term perspective on this crew.

I just thought I'd let you know, to spare you the grief. This is called a religion forum, but if you have a religion, then it's best to view this as an atheist forum.

Hey, guys, I'm new to these forums, and just wanted to make my first appearance, and offer my views and opinions real quick.

First off, I'm totally open to any discussions or arguments about any topic. I am a Christian (don't shun me right off the bat, please, lol), and I don't mean agnostic, I mean I believe that Jesus is the one and only way to God. But I'm not going to try to convert anyone, at least not in this thread, and if I do, I'll be sure to give you a heads up lol. I'm just a religion minor who finds the entire subject extremely fascinating and love to discuss it, as long as we don't get offensive...

I hope to be able to have non-heated discussions on here; everyone has their own methods they use when in the heat of zeal, be it judgement, or arrogance, or any of various other methods. Here's the best way to avoid this: Always remember that there is a possibility that you are wrong, and that there are millions of other people out there who believe differently than you, and not all of them are less educated than yourself. For most of us, we will continue to believe what we believe no matter what we are presented with (be it atheism, christianity, etc.).

I believe what I believe and believe it whole heartedly because we will never know for certain who is right, and the issue of death is too important to not completely believe in something.

That being said, I hope to have some good discussions on here and to learn some things and open my own mind while opening the minds of others.
 
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People in America are Christians because it's an American religion... an American tradition. It's such a big country that it will take a long time before a tradition changes. Just like it will take a long time before there will be dollars that are harder to counterfeit... takes time to spread it

True?

Though this is called a religion forum, the majority of the people here resent the idea of a supernatural being, and will laugh you to scorn for it.

I've always been surprised how many religious people there are on this forum, after all this is a science forum (science = atheism). Is it just me, or are religious people the minority in the world... are most people atheists today? Feels so, where i live. i miss "religion", that's why i try to believe in all kinds of religions.

both atheists and theists have good points but... i have to defend the religious people, because they are the minority.
 
Hey, guys, I'm new to these forums, and just wanted to make my first appearance, and offer my views and opinions real quick.

First off, I'm totally open to any discussions or arguments about any topic. I am a Christian (don't shun me right off the bat, please, lol), and I don't mean agnostic, I mean I believe that Jesus is the one and only way to God. But I'm not going to try to convert anyone, at least not in this thread, and if I do, I'll be sure to give you a heads up lol. I'm just a religion minor who finds the entire subject extremely fascinating and love to discuss it, as long as we don't get offensive...

I hope to be able to have non-heated discussions on here; everyone has their own methods they use when in the heat of zeal, be it judgement, or arrogance, or any of various other methods. Here's the best way to avoid this: Always remember that there is a possibility that you are wrong, and that there are millions of other people out there who believe differently than you, and not all of them are less educated than yourself. For most of us, we will continue to believe what we believe no matter what we are presented with (be it atheism, christianity, etc.).

Good luck :).

I believe what I believe and believe it whole heartedly because we will never know for certain who is right, and the issue of death is too important to not completely believe in something.

We know with 100% certainty that the Christian 'God' doesn't exist. I am not quite sure what you are reffering to as "the issue of death" and how its too important to avoid accepting fantastic assertions as truth without evidence.


That being said, I hope to have some good discussions on here and to learn some things and open my own mind while opening the minds of others.

How do you define an "open mind"?
 
Woody,

Though this is called a religion forum, the majority of the people here resent the idea of a supernatural being, and will laugh you to scorn for it.
The problem there is assuming “religion” means pro-religion only. And the issue is not that people resent the idea but thatno one can show that the idea has any merit.

They believe science will eventually explain everything.
No, its that religionists claim their religion explains everything. The skeptics make no competing claims.

They have great faith in that though they won't live long enough to know for sure.
Faith is primarily the domain of the religionist, and whether anyone lives long enough to see anything seems somewhat irrelevant.

On the otherhand, they don't have a reasonable explanation for the mystery of faith except they think it is "delusion".
There is no mystery to faith. It is simply an irrational conviction that something is true in the absence of any evidential basis.

Really, where did the delusion come from?
From the minds of those who cannot think clearly.

I've heard all their so-called "explanations" and none of them shows an understanding of faith -- it's like a blind person explaining vision to someone that has eyesight.
Although most were at one time similarly beguiled and indoctrinated by faith based fantasies and managed to eventually think for themselves and escape.

I apologize if someone doesn't like the analogy, but that is a believer's perception of atheism.
That’s ok, Its pretty clear your apology isn’t genuine.

The issue here is not intelligence because we know so many great scientists were also men of faith, but rather it's the hardness of their hearts -- that is the real issue.
That has some merit. Religionist ideas are usually bound to emotions rather than clarity of thought. It is a primary cause of the irrationality of religious ideas.

What they think is wisdom the Bible calls foolishness, and after they die the Bible will still be here for anyone to read. An open Bible will be the real data even centuries after they cease to exist. That's the long-term perspective on this crew.
Ahh the expected Christian propaganda and preaching.

I just thought I'd let you know, to spare you the grief. This is called a religion forum, but if you have a religion, then it's best to view this as an atheist forum.
It’s a religion subforum within a science forum and the bias is definitely towards critical thinking and rational analysis of religious concepts. Atheism is just one perspective that results from such analysis.
 
Hey, guys, I'm new to these forums... I am a Christian... I mean I believe that Jesus is the one and only way to God...I hope to be able to have non-heated discussions on here...Always remember that there is a possibility that you are wrong...I believe what I believe...open my own mind while opening the minds of others.

FRESH MEAT!!!! :jason:
 

I didn't mean that it was important to commit to a religous view, I meant it was important to decide on something, even if that something is that nothing happens after we die. That decision gives you some comfort, for one who believes that nothing happens, there is a certain peace to that I guess; not worrying about facing any kind of "judgement". The agnostic view, though, really, the only logical point of view, leaves you wondering, "What if one of these religions is right?" Or, I guess that person could just not worry about it.
 
JNS888,

I didn't mean that it was important to commit to a religous view, I meant it was important to decide on something, even if that something is that nothing happens after we die. That decision gives you some comfort, for one who believes that nothing happens, there is a certain peace to that I guess; not worrying about facing any kind of "judgement".
This does seem to be a common issue with many people. Somehow they perceive a need to make a choice whatever, when really, and quite often, a choice need not be made. Perhaps people simply need to learn patience.

The agnostic view, though, really, the only logical point of view, leaves you wondering, "What if one of these religions is right?" Or, I guess that person could just not worry about it.
I guess by agnostic you are adopting the lay view that perceives the term to mean “don’t know” or neutral. When looked at more closely the basis of atheism and that lay view of agnosticism are equivalent, i.e. an absence of theistic belief. Very few here and very few atheists in general adopt the assertive belief that God or a god does not exist. That belief perception tends to be how theists see atheists and it isn’t accurate.

But to your point, the issue of wondering whether gods exist or not is significant for people who have been bombarded for most of their lives by religious assumptions and statements, such that they have become conditioned to feel there might be something to consider. When viewed objectively the god concept is simply an imaginative fantasy and has no semblance of factual context. Put that together with the typical sheep mentality of the masses of unthinking people on the planet who prefer to accept a “nice” idea than accept what might be unpleasant and we end up with the notion that “well so many people believe it then it is likely to be true, right?”, and that is just a classic logical fallacy.

As to death: There are 3 essential positions –

1. believe there is some kind of soul that can survive physical death
2. have no idea whether there is a soul or not and ignore the issue
3. don’t find the soul concept convincing and take steps to overcome the death problem through non religious means

The first is the age old idea of spirits and souls that have given rise to the thousands of religions throughout the millenniums. It is now so embedded in the minds of people across the planet and appears in so much media and fiction that it is difficult to see how it might not have value. Yet there is nothing to indicate a soul/spirit could or might exist, and especially less so now that we have some understanding of brain function.

The second group of people is simply the vast majority who really don’t know what to believe, generally follow their local customs and culture, and hope for the best.

The third group is currently small but generally views anti-aging research and modern science and technology as ways to extend life and increase longevity and perhaps even avoid death.

When considering the broader perspective of all religions we see that death is the single factor they all share and they all offer a promise to cheat it. It plays firmly into that basic human desire and primeval instinct to survive, and that permanent non existence is not an acceptable outcome. And from that a vast number of imaginative scenarios, gods, reincarnations, etc, and rules are invented, that would allow this mythical spirit entity to survive physical death. It is all total fantasy.

If we are to survive and overcome death it will mean we have to work hard to achieve it. All the evidence tells us that death is ugly and permanent and that it isn’t a magical gateway to a utopian paradise as religions want us to believe and billions of gullible people buy.
 
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