New Book - The Primordial Language - Confirmation of the Divine Creator

[synthesizer-patel]

Synthesizer-patel,

Here is your answer… The whole world and every living thing in it is made up of information and energy - down to the molecules and subatomic particles.

But come to find out that subatomic particles are not really things either! They are actually only “fluctuations” of energy and information in a huge void, and when we look further beyond this point we see absolutely nothing!

So now what’s this “nothingness” from which we all come from?

Is it just an empty void?

No, it is the womb of G-d!

Is it possible, just vaguely possible for you to fathom in your minuscule mind that the natural world (as it was set up by G-d) goes to the same exact place to get the “information” that it needs to create all things in existence?

so in other words evolution can produce new information then

 

[Anita Meyer]

so in other words evolution can produce new information then

"A horse is a horse, of course, of course", is from the old time show, "Mister Ed". It means, things are how they seem.

In other words… when "the Theory of Evolution" conclusively reveals to us that life progressed over a long duration of time in a series of long stages, than a Horse will have turned into Mr. Ed.

 

[synthesizer-patel]

"A horse is a horse, of course, of course", is from the old time show, "Mister Ed". It means, things are how they seem.

In other words… when "the Theory of Evolution" conclusively reveals to us that life progressed over a long duration of time in a series of long stages, than a Horse will have turned into Mr. Ed.

so what you are saying is that the new information imparted by evolution can cause more primitive animals to evolve new and advanced traits - thats what you mean by new information then

its hardly controversial

 

[arfa brane]

Yet we can design a system like this and not realize that even it is subject to “natural law” (source of universal energy).

I'm sorry, but if we hadn't realised that computers are subject to natural laws, energy and so on, we wouldn't have built them. We wouldn't have even figured out that making an axe out of stone and wood can cut a tree down.

As to the herb, mon. Jah he tell i when i take de herb, you jus whitey tryin to confuse us dread mon.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

And so is yours! Answer me this question… where is the evidence that any of this (evolution) has ever happened?

In books, journals, articles, lecture notes and a plethora of websites. Its in the laboratories and museums of the world, the places where people go when they want to learn and perhaps even do science.

Speciation has been seen in the lab. The development of previously nonexistent abilities within a population have been seen in the lab. The fossil record provides a wealth of now extinct species which form a continuous sequence of life down to the present day life on this planet. DNA sequencing demonstrates the links between species and gives insight into their past development.

The evidence is out there for you to find, you simply don't want to look. Instead all you do is jam your head into the bible and quote it endlessly. Its demonstrably false in regards to the development of life and also that of the universe. It is scientifically wrong about them.

The webiste talkorigins.org goes through 29 different major areas which support evolution here. Each of those areas is individually made up of the world of thousands of scientists, all of whom have published their work for scrutiny by others and whose work you could get your hands on if you wished.

The evidence is out there if you were honest enough to look. You previously claimed you like delving into things and understanding them yet you've written a book against such things as evolution but you don't know the first thing about it.

My view is quite simple you see, it deals with something called “REALITY” (like-life coming from like-life), and this is something that the “Theory of Evolution” will never ever have.

How many times do you plan to simply assert lies which are easily exposed? The material on the observations pertaining the evolution literally fills libraries, it is used in medical science to practical effect.

You previously implied that abiogenesis talks about a cell 'appearing' somehow from a pool of chemicals. I commented that that isn't what abiogenesis says and you ignored me (which suggests you know you're lying, you just can't admit it). Amino acids can occur naturally in nature without life being there, we've detected them in space. Amino acids lead to proteins, proteins lead to enzyme like molecular constructors which lead to things like RNA and eventually you've got a very basic chemical factory. Nothing like as complicated as a cell but enough to replicate itself and things go from there. Creationists think evolution says it went 'raw materials -> cell -> animals, it doesn't.

Now, can you provide evidence why this chain of things is absolutely impossible, even with raw materials in the trillions of tons, over time scales of billions of years with constant energy input from the Sun? You complain when you perceive others not to have provided evidence but you provide none yourself, despite my repeated requests.

Ok, so let me see, you must then obviously believe in the Drake Equation (which is a mathematical equation used to estimate the number of extraterrestrial civilizations that may exist in our galaxy)

Why 'obviously'? You might simply swallow anything which comes from the pulpit but some of us actually turn our brains on. I agree with the notion Drake puts forth but I don't think any confidence can really be put in the numbers involved. I do, however, believe there's life elsewhere in the universe though where, how much and in what form I don't know.

Firstly, there are explanations as to why the Universe appears to aged and this has to do with “light“. I can go into all of that if you would like - just let me know?

I am far more experienced in cosmology, electromagnetism and general relativity than you ever will be. 'Tired light' is an ad hoc excuse for why all evidence points to a universe more than 13 billion years old and it fails to explain other observations.

Secondly, as to date, we have not found any other life in the Universe that we have observed so far.

So because we haven't found something it doesn't exist? Your logic is like saying "I can't find my car keys, therefore my car doesn't exist".

We haven’t even found a single valid bacteria on Mars.

But can I ask you… where is any of this so called “real” evidence?

So because we've explored a few square kilometres using little remote control cars on a single planet of 8 (or 9) in a solar system of 100 billion in a galaxy of 100 trillion at least then you're going to conclude life doesn't exist?

Its quite simple you know, it just doesn’t exist!

Just like your evidence for god. At least we know the universe exists and other stars and planets and galaxies exist and they are partly made of the stuff we're made of. Life elsewhere is simply a matter of the chemicals we know exist coming together somewhere else. That reasoning doesn't extend to god, there is no example at all of a deity anywhere in the universe, unlike life.

d be interested in your view "first" for the reason why thermodynamic doesn’t contradict evolution?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html

I've already given you an explanation, didn't you read it? Or did you just fail to understand it. Any living thing is 'ordered' more than its surrounding so if thermodynamics couldn't allow for order to come from disorder ever, in any way, we'd not be able to grow or reproduce, as that's producing more order in our bodies. Thermodynamics says a closed system increases in disorder as time passes. Our bodies and all the other living things on the planet are not closed systems, we eat food or bask in sunlight. Animals eat one another or plants and plants get their energy from the Sun. A plant can convert disordered raw materials like carbon dioxide and water into a highly ordered molecule like glucose because it is provided low entropy energy from the Sun via sunlight. The decrease in the disorder of the raw materials is more than offset by the increase in disorder in the Sun.

If thermodynamics prevented life as a whole becoming more complex it'd prevent individual lifeforms from growing during their life, as the principle is exactly the same. The very fact we're alive demonstrates your claim to be false. But well done on demonstrating you don't know any thermodynamics, you ignored or failed to understand my previous explanation and you're stupid enough to parrot creationist talking points due to a lack of viable argument from yourself.

FYI, most of these religious texts have barrowed ideas from the Hebrew Bible

There are religions older than the bible and they can all be twisted and 'interpreted' in the same way. The stories in the bible weren't original, moral or factually accurate, just like all the other religions.

And no, the Hindu holy book is NOT older than the Hebrew Bible, and the same is true for the Koran (Quran).

The Hindu book is and I know the quran is younger, I never said otherwise. I said they can all be twisted to 'predict' things but just like the bible they always predict things after the fact. Funny that....

Although here is the kicker in all this… according to the Moslem/Islamic tradition Mohamed took a ride on his divine horse (or angel) and flew at night from the Dome of the Rock mosque (located in Jerusalem) and ascended up to heaven

How is that 'the kicker'? You're slating one religion for stupid or clearly fabricated stories when you're holding creationism to be true! Talk about pot calling the kettle black!

n other words… when "the Theory of Evolution" conclusively reveals to us that life progressed over a long duration of time in a series of long stages, than a Horse will have turned into Mr. Ed.

The fact you clearly don't know what evolution says only serves to weaken your position.

 

[Anita Meyer]

The evidence is out there if you were honest enough to look. You previously claimed you like delving into things and understanding them yet you've written a book against such things as evolution but you don't know the first thing about it.

Alphanumeric, you can say it till your blue in the face that I do not know the first thing about the “Theory of Evolution“, but this is just your gamming way of trying to discredit the things I put forth. I guess you can say the same thing about Creationists. However there is one difference here… I can give you ample proof about such things like the Bible Code (as I’ve clearly shown) there is a code.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2606814&postcount=60

I can also throw many of these evidences out there all of which give ample proof while you keep rattling on and on about such nonsense of “Evolution Theory”, which is still absent on drumming up ample proof of any kind.

The material on the observations pertaining the evolution literally fills libraries, it is used in medical science to practical effect.

So it does, but the Bible is still the best selling book of all time!

You previously implied that abiogenesis talks about a cell 'appearing' somehow from a pool of chemicals. I commented that that isn't what abiogenesis says and you ignored me (which suggests you know you're lying, you just can't admit it).

I never said that! If I did you most likely mistook it. Abiogenesis means: Life from inanimate matter: the hypothesis that life can come into being from nonliving materials.

I never said life could come about from nonliving materials! Plainly put, they cannot!

Amino acids can occur naturally in nature without life being there, we've detected them in space.

Now, we’ve already been through this before numerous times already concerning Amino acids! It has nothing to do with being found in space. Firstly, for “life” to come about we need the right kind of amino acids (found on earth), which are all left-handed.

Amino acids lead to proteins, proteins lead to enzyme like molecular constructors which lead to things like RNA and eventually you've got a very basic chemical factory. Nothing like as complicated as a cell but enough to replicate itself and things go from there. Creationists think evolution says it went 'raw materials -> cell -> animals, it doesn't.

Your still at it trying to make the imaginary cell appear out of evolutionary processes.

I’ve already explained how “information” works pertaining to DNA. It cannot function without the information already being there! As I’ve explained that there are chemicals that make up a language system that than makes up the order of molecules meaningful in the DNA. So in other words, it is “these chemicals” that read the language to make it meaningful. So you need the language to make the order of molecules and vice versa - you cannot have one without the other.

If you want to have an intelligent disagreement over the theory, then answer this question… how is it that internal organs came about to work in harmonization starting out from the very first cell and in comparison to our human body. How did our body learn (or evolve) to work amid its complete system working simultaneously. Which ones came first? Was it the nerves or the organs since nerves control the organs, if we don’t have nerves we cant digest food or deliver information to our brain, how about the heart and lungs to oxygenate our blood. Oh and what about blood, it contains all the mechanisms to transport life’s nutrients. how about gastric chemicals, did we evolve those acid producing cells first, or the stomach lining?

What all this dictates is that living things would’ve had to be fully functional in the first moments of life. Because of this mutuality, evolution could not have occurred.

I am far more experienced in cosmology, electromagnetism and general relativity than you ever will be. 'Tired light' is an ad hoc excuse for why all evidence points to a universe more than 13 billion years old and it fails to explain other observations.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
Secondly, as to date, we have not found any other life in the Universe that we have observed so far. ”

So because we haven't found something it doesn't exist? Your logic is like saying "I can't find my car keys, therefore my car doesn't exist".

No, what I’m saying is that my logic doesn’t lay in the realm of “imagination”. What I believe in is consistent to the laws observed in nature. Again, like-life coming from like-life. An Elephant gives birth to an Elephant. If there was change in the fossil record, where is it? For evolution to have occurred it is based on “genetic change” and there is no way of studying the DNA of fossils - so we can never have any way of relating fossil organisms to one another or to modern ones genetically. Additionally, just because two fossils look the same does not mean they are the same species. So these are factors that fossils will never tell us.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
Its quite simple you know, it just doesn’t exist! ”

Just like your evidence for god. At least we know the universe exists and other stars and planets and galaxies exist and they are partly made of the stuff we're made of. Life elsewhere is simply a matter of the chemicals we know exist coming together somewhere else. That reasoning doesn't extend to god, there is no example at all of a deity anywhere in the universe, unlike life.

Psalms 19:1 - The heavens declare the glory of G-d; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

James 1:5 - Our wisdom comes from G-d, not the stars.

Psalms 147:4 - He has all the stars numbered and named.

Psalm 8:3 - When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained.

Job 26:13 - He has garnished the heavens.

Well of course we are all made of the same stuff, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a G-d either. How about you try and find something out there in the vastness of space that is new to science. You cant find it, because it does not exist. Saying it might exist does not make it so either unless it is truly found.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
d be interested in your view "first" for the reason why thermodynamic doesn’t contradict evolution? ”

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html

I've already given you an explanation, didn't you read it? Or did you just fail to understand it. Any living thing is 'ordered' more than its surrounding so if thermodynamics couldn't allow for order to come from disorder ever, in any way, we'd not be able to grow or reproduce, as that's producing more order in our bodies.

Thermodynamics says a closed system increases in disorder as time passes. Our bodies and all the other living things on the planet are not closed systems, we eat food or bask in sunlight. Animals eat one another or plants and plants get their energy from the Sun. A plant can convert disordered raw materials like carbon dioxide and water into a highly ordered molecule like glucose because it is provided low entropy energy from the Sun via sunlight. The decrease in the disorder of the raw materials is more than offset by the increase in disorder in the Sun.

If thermodynamics prevented life as a whole becoming more complex it'd prevent individual lifeforms from growing during their life, as the principle is exactly the same. The very fact we're alive demonstrates your claim to be false. But well done on demonstrating you don't know any thermodynamics, you ignored or failed to understand my previous explanation and you're stupid enough to parrot creationist talking points due to a lack of viable argument from yourself.

Well (of course) I’ve noticed that you completely left out the Creationist fact that life started with G-d creating us verses evolution. But do you really believe that your explanation for Thermodynamics allows for evolution to have occurred on account of eating food, basking in the sunshine, and growing? This flies lame in the face of good science!

Firstly, the Universe is constantly undergoing transformations of energy/matter from one form to another IRREVERSIBLY! Whether it be by physical, chemical, biological, geological, cosmological, time itself, you name it, they are IRREVERSIBLE (they are permanent, unalterable and irretrievable). For instance, the simple act of just burning the gasoline in our cars gets transformed to other forms of energy/matter and in the process the entropy of our world increases.

Everything is a “closed system” there is no such things as an open system! No human ingenuity or technology is going to outsmart the “second law“ which is in absolute control of all natural processes! This is because “energy“ within a “closed loop“ system such as the Universe - as a whole is experiencing decreased entropy, and will inevitably die out as the sun uses up all its energy. However there are those (like yourself Alphanumeric) who envelope the idea that the Universe is not a closed loop system but rather an open looped system. But the scientific evidence is present that the overall amount of gas in the entire Universe is dissipating. Therefore we can validate that it truly is a closed looped system in which entropy will eventually win in the end and the solar system (indeed, the whole universe) will die a death at maximum entropy.

Life on earth is a temporary blip in the process of universal down winding. It is an ILLUSION that things in life are “reversing“ and can temporarily produce small areas of organization. In reference to a “closed looped system“. Ecclesiastes 1:9 - What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

Now let me touch base here on a allusions that the evolutionist throw forth about the law of “entropy and thermodynamics”. The evolutionists say this law is quickly coming to an end because we witness examples of natural order from disorder constantly occurring in every time it snows, whereupon billions upon billions of beautiful examples of “reverse entropy“ spring into existence and are blown about by the wind which are highly structured crystalline patterns of simple molecules and each one unique. Additionally, salt crystals and deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) is another molecular form of crystal even more complex than that of water crystallizing into ice. The evolutionists even make the case of water running upstream, metabolism, growth, digestion, condensation, and also using the example of a seed and an embryo as reverse entropy. In addition, they use the example that energy is being transferred from one location to another and conclude that overall, entropy MUST increase and this energy transfer CAN reverse “local entropy“ without any violation of thermodynamic principles whatsoever. However, these types of things such as “growth” is not an example of improvement or defeating entropy. This is because everything that’s needed for the entire life of an organism is present in the genes. Growth is not an improvement of any sort since it requires outside fuel, thus the provider undergoes entropy. Additionally, the evolutionists view of growth is lapsed because as something grows it needs more and bigger organs to accomplish less than the original single-celled organism. But overall growth still does not explain how one kind of creature can change into another, which is what evolution requires.

What the laws of entropy and thermodynamics prove is that evolution is absurdly impossible because it claims that we have evolved progressively. We are not evolving, we are actually de-volving! The very notion opposites what evolution says. Evolution is in the position of assuming that random mutations somehow reverse the tendency of destruction inherent in the 2nd law as well as the mutations themselves, but they do not! How can evolutionists believe that the very same processes that have been observed only to cause decay, death, and destruction caused NOTHING to create something, and then that something to make itself come alive and then to evolve into something more complex as man?

Evolutionists like using all sorts of defensible examples to try and break the law of entropy. They throw forth examples like: We could not build houses, roads, computers, bridges, and so on. Because all of these things (they say) represent reversals of entropy where more energy is expended than what is required to build such structures, and all of them are subject to decay, which is why they require maintenance. The fact that entropy must increase explains why everything eventually breaks, but it in no way precludes things from being fixed or built up - otherwise plants and people could not grow.

I've heard it all, even such things like the claim about greenhouse gases violating the second law of thermodynamics. The claim that the air can become hotter than the ground it receives heat from, and then heats the ground. The claim that CO2 becomes hotter by taking in (absorbing) infrared radiation. However nothing new is happening here either since the absorption of specific wavelengths of light by an atom/molecule changed the energy state of the atom’s electrons rather than causing an increase in motion (or heat). Moreover, before an atom could absorb additional radiation of that wavelength it had to first “emit“ radiation of that wavelength. So you see again, there is an even exchange of energy transpiring here.

Moreover, in DNA, each cell reads and interprets the code and follows the instructions that it is given. Each cell knows which part of the instructions apply to it. Its likened unto a team of construction workers building a house in which each worker recognizes and understands the part of the architectural schematics that apply to his/her specific project. One worker has the given knowledge on how to interpret the instructions for installing windows and doors, while another worker install the electrical wiring and connections, and another the plumbing. In the end everything fits together flawlessly according to the master instructions - likened onto the instruction that DNA has in all living things. Stem cells are magnificent in that they can form to become any cell in the body. However, even in this respect the role and amount of stem cells at the given time of conception was determined by its mother hosts DNA, and there are also cells that instruct the direction or the places that the stem cells are needed in the body.

But the question remains, where did these detailed instructions come from? What directs each cell into knowing what portion of the architectural schematics to perform? The window installer could care less about how to install plumbing or the electrical. That is why the information in DNA and how it is used specifically and at the precise times necessary cannot be explained by the laws of thermodynamics alone. We need another law before we can even hope to understand the origin of information like this. This law lies in the foundation that all life is the SPOKEN AND WRITTEN WORD OF G-D!

Remember, TRUE SCIENCE WILL ALWAYS BACK UP WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS and will continue to do so until the end result of a creator is finally acknowledged.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
FYI, most of these religious texts have barrowed ideas from the Hebrew Bible ”

There are religions older than the bible and they can all be twisted and 'interpreted' in the same way. The stories in the bible weren't original, moral or factually accurate, just like all the other religions.

That’s solely your opinion, and you have to prove that the stories aren’t true. FYI archeology is finding out otherwise.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
And no, the Hindu holy book is NOT older than the Hebrew Bible, and the same is true for the Koran (Quran). ”

The Hindu book is and I know the quran is younger, I never said otherwise. I said they can all be twisted to 'predict' things but just like the bible they always predict things after the fact. Funny that....

You are misinformed here. The Old and New Testament have indeed foretold of prophesies that happened centuries latter. One of them as I had explained earlier was the birth, life and death of Jesus.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
Although here is the kicker in all this… according to the Moslem/Islamic tradition Mohamed took a ride on his divine horse (or angel) and flew at night from the Dome of the Rock mosque (located in Jerusalem) and ascended up to heaven ”

How is that 'the kicker'? You're slating one religion for stupid or clearly fabricated stories when you're holding creationism to be true! Talk about pot calling the kettle black!

What I was pointing out was the fact that the Muslim religion is built off of its predecessor the Hebrew Bible. Which predates the Quran and makes the Hebrew Bible older. Now if you say that the Hindu book is older I would have to ask you what you based that knowledge off of. As far as I’m aware the only book that predates the Hebrew Bible is the book of Enoch which was written pre-flood era (before the Great Flood of Noah). In fact Enoch was the Great Grandfather of Noah. However Enoch believed in the same G-d as Moses. In the New Testament we find Jesus himself quoting the book of Enoch on several occasions.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
n other words… when "the Theory of Evolution" conclusively reveals to us that life progressed over a long duration of time in a series of long stages, than a Horse will have turned into Mr. Ed. ”

The fact you clearly don't know what evolution says only serves to weaken your position.

Your overconfidence blinds you!

 

[Anita Meyer]

BTW, you still have no refutation on my book demo? What’s a matter, Cat got your tongue?

http://www.insearchoftheuniversaltruthpublisher.com/files/Pictures_and_explanation.pdf

What I have proved beyond a doubt is that the Hebrew Letters (the ones that G-d gave Moses on Mount Sinai, and the ones that comprise our modern day Bible) have an “INTELEGENT DESIGN TO THEM” since I’ve clearly explained, demonstrated, and proven that they correspond to natures law of unit growth (which was clearly explained in my book demo).

Now if you think this isn’t something significant, than you have to come up with an explanation for why there is “ORDER” in them??? Albert Einstein had quoted one of the most notorious sayings in relation to the field of Quantum Mechanics when he said: G-d does not play dice with the universe… He was correct you know! Logically speaking, THERE CANNOT BE ACCIDENTS IN A UNIVERSE WHICH HAS AN “ORGANIZING INTELLIGENCE”.

That deduces to G-d, since we can now link His Word (the Hebrew letters) to creation!

 

[AlphaNumeric]

Alphanumeric, you can say it till your blue in the face that I do not know the first thing about the “Theory of Evolution“, but this is just your gamming way of trying to discredit the things I put forth. !

You have already demonstrated you don't. You thought abiogenesis involved a fully formed cell. You thought thermodynamics prevented evolution. You proclaim there's no evidence when there's plenty.

I can give you ample proof about such things like the Bible Code (as I’ve clearly shown) there is a code.

Any sufficiently lengthy book will be able to have 'the bible code' applied to it. It's a statistical property.

So it does, but the Bible is still the best selling book of all time!

Argument by popularity. The fact a lot of people believe something doesn't make it so. More people believe the Christian god doesn't exist than people who believe it does. Long ago more people believed the Sun went around the Earth, doesn't mean it did. Can't you come up with one argument which isn't a logical fallacy?

I never said that! If I did you most likely mistook it. Abiogenesis means: Life from inanimate matter: the hypothesis that life can come into being from nonliving materials.

I never said life could come about from nonliving materials! Plainly put, they cannot!

You said that abiogenesis involved having to explain the origin of the first cell, which isn't true. You misrepresented the science either by ignorance or malice.

Can you provide evidence life absolutely cannot come from non-life? And when I say 'evidence' I don't mean "Can you assert" or "Can you quote the bible".

Now, we’ve already been through this before numerous times already concerning Amino acids! It has nothing to do with being found in space. Firstly, for “life” to come about we need the right kind of amino acids (found on earth), which are all left-handed.

This isn't evidence, you are making an argument from ignorance. You are stating it cannot happen and your argument is just you don't know how it could therefore it can't.

I’ve already explained how “information” works pertaining to DNA. It cannot function without the information already being there! As I’ve explained that there are chemicals that make up a language system that than makes up the order of molecules meaningful in the DNA. So in other words, it is “these chemicals” that read the language to make it meaningful. So you need the language to make the order of molecules and vice versa - you cannot have one without the other.

I've explained to you previously how the "Where does the information come from?" is flawed reasoning, as information is not an intrinsic thing like energy or momentum. Any lengthy random process will eventually go through every single possible combination of outputs, the 'infinite monkeys at infinite typewriters' notion.

You have previously been asked to define 'information'. You have repeatedly ignored that request. The definition of 'information' and its properties is a huge area of research as it has impacts on data analysis and processing. I happen to be working on a project involving just such a problem at the moment.

If you consider every single combination of say 1000000 DNA segments then you'll get a lot of rubbish but a few times you'll get sections of genes which are useful. A random process provides 'information' occasionally. All you're doing is asserting it can't and you're doing it in the face of very simple evidence to the contrary.

If you want to have an intelligent disagreement over the theory, then answer this question… how is it that internal organs came about to work in harmonization starting out from the very first cell and in comparison to our human body. How did our body learn (or evolve) to work amid its complete system working simultaneously. Which ones came first? Was it the nerves or the organs since nerves control the organs, if we don’t have nerves we cant digest food or deliver information to our brain, how about the heart and lungs to oxygenate our blood. Oh and what about blood, it contains all the mechanisms to transport life’s nutrients. how about gastric chemicals, did we evolve those acid producing cells first, or the stomach lining?

You're demonstrating you haven't looked into evolution, you don't know how life developed (despite claiming you have looked into it) and your argument is just "I don't know how it could have happened therefore it didn't". Time and again you try an argument from ignorance.

I suppose its to be expected, creationists expect answers because whenever you 'ask' the bible you get an answer along the lines of "God did it" or "God says so" so when creationists see that scientists are honest enough to say "We aren't 100% sure" they think this is a problem or weakness when in fact its a strength. Scientists are willing to accept they don't know something while they try to find it out. All you do Anita is say "If you or I don't know then it isn't possible". What a sad way to go through life.

hat all this dictates is that living things would’ve had to be fully functional in the first moments of life. Because of this mutuality, evolution could not have occurred.

Straw man. You misrepresent evolution and then attack your flawed understanding.

What I believe in is consistent to the laws observed in nature.

Evolution and cosmology say otherwise.

Tell me, do you think men have one less rib than women?

If there was change in the fossil record, where is it?

The fact you haven't looked doesn't mean it isn't there. Go on, tell me the research you've done into the fossil record, so we can see if you made any attempt to actually find out if the information is there. It is there and its easily obtainable so the very fact you say otherwise shows you're either a liar or terrible at finding information. Neither of which does your claims about credible research any favours.

You might be used to getting creationist lackeys to say "Yeah, where is it!" to each other when you ask that question but some of us didn't sleep through science class and give a damn about truth.

and there is no way of studying the DNA of fossils - so we can never have any way of relating fossil organisms to one another or to modern ones genetically

And your opinion on molecular biology and anthropology is superior to those people in the research community because....?

aAdditionally, just because two fossils look the same does not mean they are the same species

You misrepresent the way its done. Do you think its that simple or do you know you're oversimplifying to the point of being deceitful?

How about you try and find something out there in the vastness of space that is new to science. You cant find it, because it does not exist.

We find new things out in space all the time. Now you're misrepresenting astrophysics. Science is about finding and understanding new things. To think we've found all there is to find is naive. And demonstrated false every single day.

Well (of course) I’ve noticed that you completely left out the Creationist fact that life started with G-d creating us verses evolution.

Until you provide evidence the assertion its 'fact' is baseless. I left it out because evidence contradicts it.

Everything is a “closed system” there is no such things as an open system!

False. The Earth is not a closed system. If energy can enter the system then by definition its not closed. The Sun provides an energy input. Our bodies are not closed as we ingest food. A closed system is 'cut off' from the outside universe, no energy in or out (though no energy out is often a condition which isn't strictly required for an analysis).

If everything were a closed system why would we have the notion of an open one?

No human ingenuity or technology is going to outsmart the “second law“ which is in absolute control of all natural processes!

No, but you can increase order locally at the expense of order elsewhere. A fridge does it all the time. Heat naturally flows from hot things to cold things, its the first law of thermodynamics. Yet a fridge makes heat flow from cold things to hot things, as it cools things down below the ambient temperature. It does this by expending energy and producing a lot of high entropy heat at the back (put your hand behind a fridge and you'll feel its quite warm). The entropy of the fridge contents goes down but the fridge is not a closed system, it needs to be plugged in. The electricity energy goes from low entropy to being high entropy heat, more than offsetting the entropy decreasing inside the fridge.

Anita, I spent 8 years at university doing physics and maths and now I do it as a job. Someone who didn't sleep through high school can see your claims about thermodynamics are false but its even more obvious for me. If you're going to just assert lies at least don't lie about science on a science forum

Evolutionists like using all sorts of defensible examples to try and break the law of entropy. They throw forth examples like: We could not build houses, roads, computers, bridges, and so on. Because all of these things (they say) represent reversals of entropy where more energy is expended than what is required to build such structures, and all of them are subject to decay, which is why they require maintenance. The fact that entropy must increase explains why everything eventually breaks, but it in no way precludes things from being fixed or built up - otherwise plants and people could not grow.

That isn't what they say at all. The fact a house or whatnot eventually decays and crumbles has nothing to do with it. The ordering of bricks into something is done at the expense of the entropy in either the fuel in our bodies or the fuel in a machine. Every building of a house or computer results in an entropy increase when you consider the minimal closed system which contains the material and the builders.

I've heard it all

And you've understood none of it.

Remember, TRUE SCIENCE WILL ALWAYS BACK UP WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS and will continue to do so until the end result of a creator is finally acknowledged.

Remember? Remember what? An unjustified assertion of yours? Is that how your mind works, you just default to "The bible cannot be wrong so the science is wrong" whenever something comes up against your beliefs? You've got your conclusion and you try to twist the evidence to support it. That isn't how intellectually honest people work. That isn't how science is done. Literal creationism is contradicted by reality and no amount of unjustified assertions and bible quotings will alter that.

That’s solely your opinion, and you have to prove that the stories aren’t true.

Shifting of the burden of proof. You have a positive claim, that the events of the bible are true and thus the onus is on you to demonstrate them. By your logic its on you to prove the stories of the quran or Hindu beliefs false. Do you think that you should believe in Zeus until you can prove he doesn't exist? Of course not and the same applies to your beliefs. If you believe something happened its on you to provide evidence.

FYI archeology is finding out otherwise.

Name specific instances. Remember how I asked you to provide references?

You are misinformed here. The Old and New Testament have indeed foretold of prophesies that happened centuries latter. One of them as I had explained earlier was the birth, life and death of Jesus.

Obviously Jews wouldn't agree with you as they believe the old testament but not in the divinity of Jesus. And the 'prophecies' are all vague and of dubious interpretation. And often they have been used to 'predict' (always after the fact) several completely different events. Various bible verses which were aposteri interpreted as predicting 9/11 were used to predict (after the fact again) the Kennedy assassinations.

Now if you say that the Hindu book is older I would have to ask you what you based that knowledge off of. As far as I’m aware the only book that predates the Hebrew Bible is the book of Enoch which was written pre-flood era (before the Great Flood of Noah).

Sumerian culture predates the Jewish one and they had writing. The Epic of Gilgamesh is older than the bible. Likewise for The Odyssey. Do a google for 'books older than the bible'. And it seems you're using the bible as evidence, which is circular reasoning. Just because the bible says "I'm the oldest book, perhaps except for the book of Enoch" doesn't mean its true. Civilisations with writing predate 2000BC, though of course you might have to acknowledge that doesn't gel with the bible, which means you're unwilling to accept evidence.

Your overconfidence blinds you!

Hypocrisy overload!!

You have put yourself worth as someone who is intellectually curious, who finds out lots of information and who is up to speed with latest developments in the relevant sciences when you are the antithesis of that. You haven't got any understanding of what cosmology, abiogenesis, evolution, thermodynamics, astrophysics or even basic high school science actually says. You assert things without evidence. You constantly commit logical fallacies which include argument by popularity, arguments from ignorance, you attack strawmen and you demonstrate you're willing to lie about science on a science forum to people who are professional scientists.

If I'm overconfident then you should have no trouble presenting evidence whenever I ask. Thus far you have ignored each and every one of those requests.

It speaks volumes.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

BTW, you still have no refutation on my book demo? What’s a matter, Cat got your tongue?

Haven't read it in any detail. Your posts demonstrate your views are nothing but ignorance and delusions. An entire book of them is more than I wish to read. I have other things to do with my time, like learn and do science.

If you think you've got a perfect argument try getting published in a reputable journal. Not a book publisher, which has no interest in the scientific accuracy in the things they publish.

Now if you think this isn’t something significant, than you have to come up with an explanation for why there is “ORDER” in them???

Pure statistics and the fact you want to lead the evidence to a conclusion you already have. You went into it knowing what outcome you wanted and you twisted things to get there. You are completely devoid of intellectual honesty.

 

[Anita Meyer]

Round and round we go…

Here’s the thing Alphanumeric, you can say I lie and whatnot and you can additionally continue to lead this forum with only your nostril hairs by asserting that “I” don’t know what I’m talking about, but people are beginning to see through your cockeyed nonsense. They are beginning to reason and understand the things that I am putting forth.

You see, because I AM providing evidence unlike you! And this speak more volumes than anything you have said thus far in this thread. All you’ve done is continue to refute with dreck.

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
FYI archeology is finding out otherwise. ”

Name specific instances. Remember how I asked you to provide references?

Not only archeological evidence but in point of fact a piece of historical evidence. And it is this fact that continues to offer a growing mass of surmounting evidence from archaeology as well as history that the Bible accounts deal with real people who lived in real places. Some of these places including many of the patriarchs and people named in the Bible which have been identified from archeological finds. Just to mention a few of these finds… The city of Jericho has been identified along with Solomon’s Temple and the city of AI. There have even been inscriptions found and identified that specify about the Canaanites and the Jews. Even inscriptions indicating the “House of David“. Additionally, the store houses of Ramses and Pithim have also been identified which is where the Jews were said to be slaves, as well as the two cities of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot Abrahams Nephew lived. These two cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) were destroyed because of sin from the likes of brimstone (sulfur - balls of fire) raining down from the sky and burning the city and its inhabitants. Amazingly archeologists have located these cities and among evidences found they also found crystallized balls of “sulfur” that may have either rained down or came out of the earth (some say from a volcanic eruption). Genesis 19:24 - Then the Lord sent down burning sulfur. It came down like rain on Sodom and Gomorrah. It came from the Lord out of the sky. Luke 17:29 - But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven. And all the people were destroyed. King Hezekiah’s tunnel has also been positively identified from an ancient inscription that was found within it carved in the rock at the end of the tunnel. This inscription described how the tunnel was build by two teams working from opposite ends (some 600 yards apart) who somehow managed to meet in the middle. When Translated it reads: “The tunneling was completed“. The inscription is now in the Istanbul Museum. This rock inscription was also carbon 14 dated to the precise era of King Hezekiah (7th century B.C.).

We also have extensive evidence of the “Cave of Mechpelah” (also known as the “Cave of the Patriarchs”). This cave is located in southern Israel in the city of Hebron. Numbers 13:22- And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.). Around 1720 BCE (some 3700 years ago) it was purchased by the patriarch Abraham from Ephron the Hittite for 400 silver shekels (Genesis 23) as a family tomb. As recorded in Genesis, the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Matriarchs Sarah, Rebecca and Leah, are buried there. The only one who is missing is Rachel, who was buried near Bethlehem where she died giving childbirth.

Additionally it has also been revealed to archeology that the existence of the four rivers of the garden of Eden (mentioned in the Bible) showed up on satellite by NASA. The Bible says Eden was located east of Israel where four rivers meet (the Tigris, Euphrates, Pison and Gihon). The later two have dried up and have long been considered mythical, however recent satellite photography from a distance above the earth reveals visible trace features that these rivers did in fact exist in Iraq. Genesis 2:8-14 - Now the Lord G-d had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. And the Lord G-d made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

Moreover recent excavations at Tell Mardikh, which is now known to be the site of Ebla. Here they have discovered thousands of tablets which have been translated which tell of Sodom and Gomorrah. Other archaeological verifications include testimony that there was actually a ruler named Belshazzar. Even more finds reveal to us that the Hittites actually existed. Other evidence found that King Sargon mentioned in the book of Acts also ruled.

Many of the cities of the Bible have also been identified such as “Nazareth” where Jesus grew up. Additionally, the Bible repeatedly mentions “Capernaum” and this is where Peter’s house and also synagogue was found. Also “Tiberias“… this is where Jesus calmed the stormy sea and walked on the water. We also have such things in our possession like the “temple warning notice” that was enclosed by a decorative railing and posted at the entrances of the Temple, one of them is now in a museum in Istanbul. Other archeological evidence has been found such as the pool of “Bethesda“. John 5:2 - Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. Additionally, there is also the pool of Siloam where Jesus cured a blind man. Nehemiah 3:15 - The Fountain Gate was repaired by Shallun son of Col-Hozeh, ruler of the district of Mizpah. He rebuilt it, roofing it over and putting its doors and bolts and bars in place. He also repaired the wall of the Pool of Siloam, by the King's Garden, as far as the steps going down from the City of David. John 9:7- Go, he told him, wash in the Pool of Siloam. So the man went and washed, and came home seeing. In addition to these places, Caesarea has been identified. Matthew 16:13 - When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, Who do people say the Son of Man is? Mark 8:27 - Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, Who do people say I am? The city of Derbe. Acts 16:1 - He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. Acts 14:8 - In Lystra there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked. Archeology has even uncovered what has been noted by the Bible to be “Satan’s Seat” which German archeologist found in “Pergamos” and took it back to Germany where it can now be found in the Berlin museum. Revelation 2:12-13 - And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges, I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Moreover, there is proof of the holy temples remains such as the golden menorah (Lampstand), trumpets, and the table of showbread that was mentioned in the Bible. Exodus 25:31 - Make a lampstand of pure gold and hammer it out, base and shaft; its flowerlike cups, buds and blossoms shall be of one piece with it. Exodus 25:30-32 - Six branches are to extend from the sides of the lampstand—three on one side and three on the other. Exodus 26:35 - Place the table outside the curtain on the north side of the tabernacle and put the lampstand opposite it on the south side. Exodus 26:34-36 - Command the Israelites to bring you clear oil of pressed olives for the light so that the lamps may be kept burning. Numbers 10:1-3- The Lord said to Moses: Make two trumpets of hammered silver, and use them for calling the community together and for having the camps set out. When both are sounded, the whole community is to assemble before you at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. Exodus 25:23-30 - Make a table of acacia wood—two cubits long, a cubit wide and a cubit and a half high. Overlay it with pure gold and make a gold molding around it. Also make around it a rim a handbreadth wide and put a gold molding on the rim. Make four gold rings for the table and fasten them to the four corners, where the four legs are. The rings are to be close to the rim to hold the poles used in carrying the table. Make the poles of acacia wood, overlay them with gold and carry the table with them. And make its plates and dishes of pure gold, as well as its pitchers and bowls for the pouring out of offerings. Put the bread of the Presence on this table to be before me at all times.

These remains were mentioned in the Bible (and they were the instructions that were given to Moses straight from G-d that the Jews built during the Exodus) to be within the possession of the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D. (approximately 40 years later after Jesus’ prediction in Luke 21:20) when the Roman army under Titus fulfilled the prediction and they came in and destroyed the Temple and stole the golden valuables. This event was recorded by a Jewish historian named Josephus. It was also recorded by the Romans (in Rome) that they witnessed the golden menorah being carried through the streets of Rome surrounded by Roman soldiers who later used its riches to build the Roman coliseum (picture shown below). The emperor Vespasian received his general share of the vast quantity of gold treasure seized by the Romans and with these riches he ordered a new amphitheatre (the Roman coliseum we know today) to be erected. There was also an “original inscription” that was carved on a stone stele (ancient stone slab) which was placed above the entrance to the coliseum that alleged that the theater was funded and build from the riches taken from the 2nd temple in Jerusalem. Archeologists know this from the older Greek letter indentations found under the current inscription.

This stone stele depiction found within the Arch of Titus in Rome provides the proof of what happened to the Jewish Temple treasures. It shows proof that these articles actually existed, and just as the Bible describes them, and in close sight, exactly the same way as the Romans viewed them. This stone depiction clearly shows the Menorah, the trumpets, as well as what might be the Table of Showbread.

Shown here is the Arch of Titus which represents the triumph commemorating the captured treasure of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. It is located on the Via Sacra just to the south-east of the Forum in Rome.

Continuing with the archeological evidence… Even something as simple as a mountains name that we take for granted. Such as the mountain name (Mount Ararat) in which Noah’s ark is mentioned to have landed is in the Bible and found to be a real mountain still in existence. Genesis 8:4 - And on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. This also goes for many other Mountains mentioned in the Bible. They appear to all be there (and noted today by their same names) just as the Bible calls them. There is even evidence of the apostle Paul’s journeys traveling in the eastern Roman empire. The record of Paul’s travels are found in the book of Acts and are found to be astonishingly accurate with Roman records even down to the nautical evidence mentioned in Acts 27:12 - 28:1.

Among other archeological evidences in our possession, we also have the “Dead Sea Scrolls” which have been found in the caves at Qumran on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea. Consisting of roughly 900 documents and are written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. They back-up with amazing accuracy the same accounts that are written in the Bible. The significant thing about the Dead Sea Scrolls is that they demonstrate unequivocally the fact that the Jews were faithful in their transcription of biblical manuscripts. And recently there are many more texts of other origins that are coming forth and revealing the standing credibility of the Bible.

There is further archaeological evidence which supports other Biblical accounts, such as: Abraham’s name which appears in Babylonia. Additionally, the field of Abram in Hebron is mentioned by the Pharaoh Shishak of Egypt inscribed on the walls of his temple at Karnak, proving that Abraham was known in Palestine - the land the Bible places him in. In addition, we also have the Beni Hasan Tomb which depicts persons coming to Egypt during a famine, corresponding with the Biblical account of the plight of the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Archeology has also found such things as the “doors of Sodom” (Tell Beit Mirsim). These are heavy doors needed for security, the same doors which we find in Genesis 19:9. Genesis 19:9*- Get out of our way, they replied. And they said, This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them. They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. We also know from Biblical accounts that Joseph was sold by his brothers as a slave to Egypt for a price of 20 shekels, which according to trade tablets from that period is the correct price. Genesis 37:28 - So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt. Moreover, Joseph’s Tomb has almost certainly been identified in Shechem where a mummy has been found with a distinguished Egyptian sword next to it. Joshua 24:32*- And Joseph’s bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were buried at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of silver from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the inheritance of Joseph’s descendants.

The conclusion in all of this archeological evidence is that recent discoveries have tended to confirm the accuracy of many background details in the Bible narratives. These discoveries clearly reveal to us that they are certainly there endorsing the true status of the Bible. They support historical reliability and are based on the testimony of eye-witnesses. This being the case, we can surely say that the Bible is supportive of historical evidences which therefore suggests that IT HIGHLY ELEVATES THE ACTUALITY OF A DIVINE ENTITY INTERVENING ON ITS BEHALF (and it is this divine author G-d alone, that the Bible is dedicated to).

Obviously Jews wouldn't agree with you as they believe the old testament but not in the divinity of Jesus. And the 'prophecies' are all vague and of dubious interpretation. And often they have been used to 'predict' (always after the fact) several completely different events. Various bible verses which were aposteri interpreted as predicting 9/11 were used to predict (after the fact again) the Kennedy assassinations.

Alphanumeric, I’m not just talking about the Bible Code as you surmise with 9/11 and the Kennedy assassinations. Now I’m talking about actual written prophesy within the Old and New Testament. Prophesies like… How is it that Jesus conspired the time and place where He was to be born in Bethlehem (approximately 700 years beforehand) so that He could ride into Jerusalem at exactly the right time of Daniels prophecy? For that date in history to be contrived by Jesus beforehand is impossible! This was Palm Sunday the spring of 33AD, which was exactly 173,880 days from Daniels prophecy.

(Old Testament) Micah 5:2 - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

(Old Testament) Daniel 9:25 - Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Matthew 21:4-11 - All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

We also know from scripture (according to John’s Gospel in the New Testament) that 6 days before, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a Donkey presenting Himself as the Messiah on March 30th 33 AD, He went to Bethany to visit Lazarus whom He had raised from the dead. John 12:1 - Then Jesus six days before the Passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. John 12:9-13 - Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yes He knew prophesy had to be fulfilled, and yes He knew He was the Messiah, but as you can see the events that fell into place is certainly something in which He had no control over. So we must come to terms that the Old Testament along with the New Testament is a solitary framework of the foretold Messiah. It was G-d’s whole agenda to make the Bible a masterpiece of “PROPHETIC KNOWLEDGE” that allows it to authenticate itself. No other religion or text (religious or non-religious) in the history of humankind is of this underlining nature. And this is what makes it a compelling piece of standing and lasting scientific evidence!

What we find is that Jesus DID INDEED put the prophecies to the test which clearly exhibits to us that what He said (and what the prophesies foretold about Him) in effect have truly come to pass. However some still continue to refute the authenticity of these prophecies. Some say Jesus knew these prophesies of the Old Testament extremely well and that He conspired with the disciples to fulfill them. But how does one explain how Jesus knew who would be on duty the day He was crucified so He could get nailed between two thieves? Isaiah 53:12 - Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Matthew 27:38 - Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. And fulfilling the scriptures so that He could have them gambling for His cloths, Luke 23:34 - Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. or made them feed Him vinegar laced with gall when He said I thirst, Psalm 69:21 - They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. Matthew 27:34 - They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. Luke 23:36 - and finally the resurrection. Psalm 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar. One to see corruption. Mark 16:6 - And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. Acts 2:31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. These are things in which He had no control over. To thwart this view the disbelievers argue that the scriptures were written after the fact. But even that argument was defeated in the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls which recorded the words of Isaiah at least 250 years before the coming of Jesus. But one of the most stunning and indisputable prophesies concerning the arrival of Jesus in Israel as the foretold Messiah had to do with the exact year, the exact month, and in fact the exact day when Jesus presented Himself to Israel as the Messiah. This was Daniels prophecy as foretold which was exactly 173,880 days from Daniels prophecy. And for those who also want to refute the book of Daniel - the entire book was also found within the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it matches-up with the Bibles versions that we have today.

Along with this analysis we also have Daniels prophesy that foretells of the antichrist with remarkable prophetic foresight (corresponding to this day and age), thus serving as another piece of flawless and undeniable evidence (as you will read). Firstly please read Daniels prophesy concerning the antichrist. Daniel 2:31-41 - You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The G-d of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay.

Now in the text above Daniel is telling us that in the future of the worlds history there will be 5 nations coming out of this statue. Starting at the head of gold which represents Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon (this era lasted for about 100 years from 626-539BC). The arms and chest of silver represents Persia (the Medes and the Persians which sacked Babylon and took it over). This era lasted for about 200 years from 539-334BC. (This is also now modern day Iran). Then the midsection (the waist of brass) represents Greece that broke up into 4 parts: Greece (the Roman Empire), Turkey, Syria and Egypt. This era lasted about 200 years from 334-150BC, which history confirms again resulting from Alexander the Great. Now keep in mind that Daniel saw these things centuries before they happened (approximately 2,500 years ago). And when we get down to the statues legs of iron, it is these legs that correspond precisely to what history tells us occurred with the forming of the Roman Empire that broke into “two parts“, which defined a Western part and an Eastern part. This can be found in Roman history to have occurred in 133BC. The Roman Empire era lasted to about 476AD. Now in the scripture above it describes two feet and toes, and as we know that there are 5 toes on each foot and 10 toes altogether.

Now the 10 toes that are said to be made of partly iron and baked clay correspond to the 10 horns mentioned in Daniel 7:7 - After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. Daniel 7:20 - I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. Daniel 7:24 - The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. These 10 horns which we read about are also in essence the 10 kings - hence the 10 toes… and it is these 10 horns, 10 kings, and 10 toes that are actually the 10 “nations” listed below.

Western Europe (Brittan, France, Germany, Spain and Italy)
Middle East (Greece, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran)

What does Daniels prophetic foresight convey to us? That it is forthcoming to know that these turn of events prophesized in the Bible regarding the end of days are imminent and will INDEED transpire, since they are right on track with prophesy (as you can see listed above that indeed there are 10 individual nations that are presently there today). Those that say the end of days scenario is all fictional fanatical religious nonsense do not truly know their history, since history has revealed otherwise to those that truly pay attention to what’s happening in the world. These historical facts are DOCUMENTED and VERIFIABLE! What really irks me is that history buffs (completely blinded by these facts) cannot make the connection to things mentioned in the Bible simply because they are blinded by a godless worldview.

Sumerian culture predates the Jewish one and they had writing. The Epic of Gilgamesh is older than the bible.

Ha ha you have probably read Zecharia Sitchins book that predates the epic of Gilgamesh as something older than what it truly was. These tablets plainly say, it is a story “retold” of the Great Flood. Now as for the Sumerian writing, FYI, it is the same exact thing as the Hebrew letters, and cuneiform is also the same thing as the Hebrew letters written sideways with arrows/dash marks. All we are doing is dabbling with the same writing, WHICH IS HEBREW.

All you do Anita is say "If you or I don't know then it isn't possible". What a sad way to go through life.

Its not sad, actually its quite LIBERATING to say that WE ALREADY KNOW, because the Bible has told us so!

Anita, I spent 8 years at university doing physics and maths and now I do it as a job.

Yes, and you’ve learned absolutely NOTHING in the true reality of the full scheme of things!

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
BTW, you still have no refutation on my book demo? What’s a matter, Cat got your tongue? ”

Haven't read it in any detail. Your posts demonstrate your views are nothing but ignorance and delusions. An entire book of them is more than I wish to read. I have other things to do with my time, like learn and do science.

Bullpucky you haven’t read it! You are just in denial, because you cannot drum up any logical explanation for it!

 

[spidergoat]

I'm sure you can find evidence for the 9/11 attacks, but that doesn't mean every story anyone tells about it is true. In fact, in Biblical times, there was not the cultural value that we have now about reporting the truth accurately (F-news excepted). Good storytelling was far more important, and they thought nothing about creative editing, both in the initial story and by every person that rewrote it (they didn't have printing presses back then).

 

[synthesizer-patel]

These two cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) were destroyed because of sin from the likes of brimstone (sulfur - balls of fire) raining down from the sky and burning the city and its inhabitants. Amazingly archeologists have located these cities and among evidences found they also found crystallized balls of “sulfur” that may have either rained down or came out of the earth

You just inadvertently gave away one of your sources.

The only person ever to claim to have found balls of sulphur at the supposed site of Sodom and Gomorrah is the the reknowned confidence trickster Ron Wyatt - considered dishonest even by most fundaligionists - fuck even Answers In Genesis have described him as a fraud.

here's a link with the hilariously oxymoronic title of "maintaining creationist integrity":

http://web.archive.org/web/20030211052724/http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/1011hovind.asp

Of course you find yourself in good company with wyatt it seems ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt

 

[IamJoseph]

A mathematical language of Divine origin - linking the Hebrew letters that were given to Moses on Mount Sinai, which was recorded in Exodus 18:31 (of the Bible) to have actually been inscribed by the finger of G-d Himself.

I found it mysterious that the 10 Commandments, given in Hebrew, has its first two words as the first time ancient egyptian is presented in Hebrew [transliterated as 'ANO CHI' = 'I AM'], and that this was directed at the Pharoah who claimed to be divine - yet spoke no Hebrew.

MYSTERY OF THE HEBREW


The Hebrew language origins mystify. Research does not give any satisfaction of the process of its emergence - raising more questions than answers. Is Hebrew the first spoken language of which all others is its derivates?


1. It appeared suddenly - without a development stage track record.

2. It appeared in an advanced state - escaping the normal evolutionary process of languages. Even 2000 years later, the Latin was less advanced, e.g.: requiring four digits to express 17 (X, V, 1, 1), which the Hebrew dispenses with half as many digits.

3. It manages copious arithmetic in the millions with the ease of expression of today's most advanced English (sp: the consensus of millions of Hebrews in the desert, complete with scientific sub-total check lists of age and gender); the dispensing of controversial subjects such as incest, homosexuality and bestiality in concise but comprehensive strokes of a few non-offending words; its prose quoted by the greatest writers in history without any loss of relevance today.

4. It was introduced via the smallest, and certainly not the earliest or mightiest, nation.

5. It was a non-popular, non-pervasive and unknown language to the great empire surrounds and their civilizations: the Egyptians knew 70 languages but knew not Hebrew. Yet it evolved as the most quoted, printed and believed document in recorded history.

6. Archaeological summations of its prototypes (Sumerian, Phoenician) fail to qualify the criteria to any satisfactory levels: why the greatest volume of Hebrew but an absolute vacancy of these assumed earlier writings? Wherefrom the striking similarity between the older Hebrew and the Indian and Japanese scripts so afar off, since 1000s of years? Hebrew is similar to, and influencing of, most written languages today. The success of the English language may yet impinge on its reverting to the Hebrew mode – the combining of vowels back with the alphabets, which the Greeks erroneously seperated when they translated the Septuagint in 300 BCE.

7. It introduced a new vocabulary and prose, with no record of past usage, of numerous words and concepts, deemed controversial for 1000s of years.


8. It introduced history and historical writings: akin to today's Telephone Directory, the first Hebrew book (The Torah) is brimming with specificity of names, places, dates, distances, cultures, diets, rivers, mountains - which remain a yardstick in measuring history. But for this Hebrew - the world would have no other source for the life and history of Abraham and a host of bygone nations.

9. It introduced a Document (The Torah) - a summary of laws and statutes, many mostly new, to which none have been able to add to or subtract from: no other religion, ideology or figurehead gave the world a single law not already contained in this Document. Try to name a single new law outside the Torah? It remains comprehensive as a Law book without equal; the world today turns by the Torah's 613 Commandments/Laws despite its ancient station in history.

10. It prevailed as no other, after disappearing and returning as no other. Apart from being one of the oldest alphabetical books in existence (The Dead Sea Scrolls), the Hebrew remained dead/dormant for 2000 years, and then returned circa 1940's as a living language/writings again. No other language ever did so after a period of 150 years of dormancy: Ancient Egyptian, Phoenician, Sumerian, Assyrian, Aramaic, and Latin are dead languages.


...The closest to expound any acceptable answers to the mystery of Hebrew, after much research, appears from a most unlikely, perhaps unacceptable source. In an ancient Hebrew book called THE MEDRASH, appears an entry relating to this sudden advent of the world's oldest surviving alphabetical writings. As a preface, the Hebrew is recorded as being a spoken language in ancient Egypt by the Hebrews, but not as a written one: there is no written Hebrew predating the Torah.

When THE TEN COMMANDMENTS were handed down to the Israelites via Moses (circa 1350 BCE), its second Commandment prohibited the use of graven Images. This would present a great contradiction: all writings of this period were in the Cuneiform ('picture writings'), made of animal/beast faces inter-polated with human torsos - or alternatively human heads with animal limbs. This would clearly not be suitable for the Torah, which contained such a commandment expressly forbidding Images with worship.

The Medrash tells that Moses was thereupon given the means of transforming 'IMAGE' writings to 'ABSTRACT' writings - and the Alphabet was born. This is the only answer which explains this mystery. The prototype ascribing of the Hebrew to Phoenician and Canaanite have irresolvable conflicts, aside from the absence of those equivalent alphabetical books: primarilly those languages contain no ‘V’ [among other alphabets]; and their nations spoke no Hebrew.


The above noted ten attributes of the Hebrew, which is unique unto it and not shared by any other presumed prototypes, may have in fact been the precursor - not the derivative - of those writings, via a connection to the first primal language of humanity. It is established that the Hebrews returned to Canaan 3,350 years ago, equipped with the Hebrew books already in their possession [the Torah narratives] - thus they could not have received Hebrew from the Canaanites or from Egypt - who never spoke this language.

In Judaic belief, Hebrew is referred to as La'Shon Ha'Kodesh (The Holy Tongue) - the Holy One spoke in this language from Sinai. And there was no echo…

 

[IamJoseph]

In fact, in Biblical times, there was not the cultural value that we have now about reporting the truth accurately (F-news excepted).

Incorrect. Charges must be legally proven with minimum two independent witnesses - else the false accuser inherits the penalty, ushering the charge of 'slander'. This is a Hebrew law.

 

[Anita Meyer]

“ Originally Posted by Anita Meyer
These two cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) were destroyed because of sin from the likes of brimstone (sulfur - balls of fire) raining down from the sky and burning the city and its inhabitants. Amazingly archeologists have located these cities and among evidences found they also found crystallized balls of “sulfur” that may have either rained down or came out of the earth ”

You just inadvertently gave away one of your sources.

The only person ever to claim to have found balls of sulphur at the supposed site of Sodom and Gomorrah is the the reknowned confidence trickster Ron Wyatt - considered dishonest even by most fundaligionists - fuck even Answers In Genesis have described him as a fraud.

here's a link with the hilariously oxymoronic title of "maintaining creationist integrity":

http://web.archive.org/web/200302110...1011hovind.asp

Of course you find yourself in good company with wyatt it seems ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt

synthesizer-patel,

I've been there myself to actually attest for it!

In the Dead Sea region, sulfur deposits (balls of sulfur) are easily found.

In fact Josh Bernstein, (host of Digging for the Truth) a History Channel documentary television series shows us how easy sulfur is to find in this area. Additionally National Geographic has covered this as well.

I'd insult you, but you're not bright enough to notice.

 

[IamJoseph]

synthesizer-patel,

I've been there myself to actually attest for it!

In the Dead Sea region, sulfur deposits (balls of sulfur) are easily found.

In fact Josh Bernstein, (host of Digging for the Truth) a History Channel documentary television series shows us how easy sulfur is to find in this area. Additionally National Geographic has covered this as well.

I'd insult you, but you're not bright enough to notice.

More impacting than the salt is the given history of these two ancient cities 4000 years ago, and confirmed as two of the earliest historical established cities in the time of Abraham.

 

[spidergoat]

Incorrect. Charges must be legally proven with minimum two independent witnesses - else the false accuser inherits the penalty, ushering the charge of 'slander'. This is a Hebrew law.

I'm talking about stories and mythology, not legal cases.

 

[spidergoat]

I found it mysterious that the 10 Commandments, given in Hebrew, has its first two words as the first time ancient egyptian is presented in Hebrew [transliterated as 'ANO CHI' = 'I AM'], and that this was directed at the Pharoah who claimed to be divine - yet spoke no Hebrew.

I think we found another Sciforums love connection! You should ask Anita out!

 

[IamJoseph]

I think we found another Sciforums love connection! You should ask Anita out!

Christianity and Islam have a pet problem. But there is nothing unusual about a 4000 year nation possessing accumulated knowledge and thereby some transcending syndromes. Unfortunately, religions are not like a soccer match - if one particular player performs well the team all want to bash him for it! Therein is the problem. :shrug:

 

[arfa brane]

S' all Babylon, mon.
You need ta grow some natty dreads mon.