New Book: The Hidden Origins of Islam
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
shadow said:
Just that you seem to confuse such beliefs with plausible accounts of the origins of Islam.
I know lots of people who believe in ghosts. No problem, but they don't explain the tire tracks in my lawn from last weekend when their teenage son had the family car out all night.
The origins of Islam, in other words, remain hidden as long as appeals to angels and djinns are key features of its creation myth.
No. People who believe the facts of the universe magically appear in books they've written are always backward in science.shadow said:
well, i don't beleive in ghosts like you think, djins, as we muslims beleive, and more presice, educated muslims, are just other intelligent beings but in another univerce, you can call it parallele to ours, so they do exist with us, they do exist among us, but we can't see them, also it can even be their a dinosor walking by your side right now, in another univerce, where dinosors didnt get extinct, anyway, so not ghost, as you think, or like the fake videos and etc...
[/QUOTE]
but in the case of quran, many many things, that people didnt know that time, like black holes, bigbang, ... and if you sya it's written by people, well, then i'll say those people were developed as much as we are today, or more, also the thing that you don't know, also i didnt before is the numirique organisation, well, anyway, it's your choise and your opinion to say it's written by humans but according to me, also i'm a science lover, and i don't accept myths, i beleive in quran and islam, also as for many things, as for me, i'm an astronomy fan, so there's a few things in the quran, that people didnt actually knew, well for me, i beleive in quran and islam[not the fanatic one(the made up one)], that's for me as a beleive, also i respect all thoghts, but not the fanatic ones or the ones that attacks people, or the relegion.
just a thing i remembred, quran have not been written by magic, i don't know the story, and the first sura on quran, and the first word in quran was, "read", anyway...
if quran have been written bu men, or by mohamed, how did they knew all such things that we just knew today?
Never said you did.shadow said:
It was just an example for an argument - your djinns, angels, etc, are in the same category. It's easier for you to recognize such matters in other people with different ones, is all - so I picked an example you could see better. Do you have a "problem" with people who believe in ghosts? I warn you, there are some very sophisticated concepts of ghost out there - a lot like your djinns, for example. I have no problem with them, or you.
People who believe things like that are written in magic books of wisdom written long ago are always backwards in science.shadow said:
nope, i have no problem. as long they're not going to heart people.
ah magic book, yeah. true.
((((***
but if you're talking about quran , it's the contrary, who re good at science, and better know and well educated in science, just beleive quran more, and effcorse a few are atheists like anywhere in the world, bu usually athesist, don't even know anything about the relegion, just throw ignorant words and stuff, personally, never met one like that. i know an atheis, but there's no poblem at all, we don't even mention relegion, only rarely, too rarely, inculuding my other friends who's not atheists, it's between him and god
so not my damn buisness, hehehe ^^"***)))==> out of the question answer.
Last edited:
.
it's any body choise not to beleive in islam or think it's all a bullshit, but it must be his choise not to insult it or insult people who are in it (wanna insult terrorists, then don't mention muslims or islam, if terrorists were doing what islam says as they say, then, why would all muslims hate them? (you, i don't mean you you, it's just, you, hehehehe ^^" besides, there are terrorist from any relegion or country, like in the hall history of humanity, if things go like that, then i'll say all christians are terrorists, because of previous wars that killed thousands if not millions of innocents, but that's not right, that's what i call bullshit, hehehehehe).
even me, if i thoght anything bad about any country or any culture, i don't even mention it, i respect you whatever your relegion or culture or language. infact; i don't care about relegion, as everybudy elese in here, also, it's more interresting to know some one who have another relegion, to learn about he's relegion, or her's, divercity is always a good thing.
it's any body choise not to beleive in islam or think it's all a bullshit, but it must be his choise not to insult it or insult people who are in it (wanna insult terrorists, then don't mention muslims or islam, if terrorists were doing what islam says as they say, then, why would all muslims hate them? (you, i don't mean you you, it's just, you, hehehehe ^^" besides, there are terrorist from any relegion or country, like in the hall history of humanity, if things go like that, then i'll say all christians are terrorists, because of previous wars that killed thousands if not millions of innocents, but that's not right, that's what i call bullshit, hehehehehe).
even me, if i thoght anything bad about any country or any culture, i don't even mention it, i respect you whatever your relegion or culture or language. infact; i don't care about relegion, as everybudy elese in here, also, it's more interresting to know some one who have another relegion, to learn about he's relegion, or her's, divercity is always a good thing.
People - in general, communities etc - who believe that the physical facts of the universe are hidden in books of wisdom written hundreds of years ago, are invariably scientifically backward.shadow said:
This is also true, in general as an overall pattern, of individuals. One of the basic tenets of science is that you do not make discoveries by decoding secret books of foreknowledge - there are no magic books, secrets of the ancients, compilations of deity-bequeathed information.
Books are written by people, and they don't have any information in them the people who wrote them didn't put there. That was an important advance we made at the beginning of the scientific age, and it was hard-won insight. Until the followers of Islam come to that understanding, their religion will continue to cripple their scientific abilities in certain fields to some extent. time spent searching for scientific information in the Quran is wasted time.
Which is why we know so little about the origins of Islam - the "research" has been monopolized by people who take the Quran to be a repository of factual information, and actually evaluate other sources of info based on whether or not they support assertions in the Quran. One learns almost nothing about the origins of any religion in that manner.
Last edited:
.
effcorse the scientific search is the most imprtant, didnt i even told you that the first word of quran came was "read", also, quran is not a book of science, nor of magic, and nor of knoledge, quran is just a holy book, that when discover things in science, we may see it or find it somewhere in quran, and in clear words, clear as the sun, well, you beleive that the quran have been written by people, well, yes sure, but not with the knoledge of people, it's what we call, like, a call from god to that person, or something...anyway, i beleive it, if you don't; it's our opinion, also, searchign about those things in quran, are not a work, are like a hobbyfor someone, not a work for living or something, it's like, a study, in that case, you say it's a waste of time, then painting is a waste of time, i'm not saying we should close laborotries and stop education and search in quran, i mean, that's what maked some arab countries go backward after it's golden ages hundreds of years ago, also, you're not gettign what i mean, to find things in quran, doesnt mean it's a science book, it increase our faith and our beleif in it, also,quran is not the source of the science, or the discoveries in science, you can find in it, but you can't know it is in it, and i know exactly what you're talking about, effcorse, anyone one can understand that. so, quran is not the reason of the development of nations, in islam itself, it says that a person that works and study, is better than a person who always pray and pass hours in the mosque intill he forget life, humans, we, are created to work, and worship god/allah, we are created to live in the univerce, to spread our race, in the univerce, not the earth, and it's our duty to search for knoledge (i just wish if all muslim countries apply that...).
what you understanded from me, is that i think that quran is the source of knoledge and everything and we shoudl close univercities and laboratries and start reading quran, no that's not what i think, what i meant by mentioning many things, is, if quran is written by humans, then, they must be developed like us today, to know all those stuff, how would they know in the past about black holes? and it's mentioned in clear words, it's called(like to give it a description) broom, also the worm holes, in a clear arabic words, al-mieraj, means like a short cut, or a passage, anyway, and many other things that impress me, effcorse not we should stop science and read quran all the time, but what i meant is, that, it's greater than a just a book, written by humans like you say, with human knoledge, i know it sounds weird and far from truth to you to say that allah/god is the source of quran, and bible(but humans changed it, also turah) but, i do beleive it, so, it's not a problem, as you said, you know someone, who beleive in ghost, but, so what, you don't have any problem with, inless he's going to heart people, or heart you, anyway, so, it's just a matter of prespective, it's not easy for you to beleive what i'm saying and you'll just say that it's mentioned like, for example you read the word "cat" in a book, so you say, OMG, evolution is mentioned in that book! no it's not like that, but it's in clear words, but translating it to english, usually, loosed it's meaning, so usually it should be translated very carefully, and translate it's meaning, actually, to today, i mean, normal people, can't understand the quran, at least all of it, just a few of it, anyway, you can try to make a fast search about that in google. for example, about space and quran or something, anyway, you think about it, but usually in arabic is better and more clear, anyway...
so the final point, i never said, that quran is a science book, or a knoledge book, that we should close all univercities and stare at the quran waiting to find something... in that case, also by just staring at it, you want find anything, inless you notice it, while you know about it in science, for example, in quran, human body materials, are all found in a mudd pie, humans are like a mudd pie, everything in the mudd pir, you'll find it in human, the materials i mean,; and that's a scientific fact, i saw it on national geography a week ago, and in quran, it's the same thing mentioned..don't know wich part, sorry i don't memorize the quran.
anyway...you got my point.
effcorse the scientific search is the most imprtant, didnt i even told you that the first word of quran came was "read", also, quran is not a book of science, nor of magic, and nor of knoledge, quran is just a holy book, that when discover things in science, we may see it or find it somewhere in quran, and in clear words, clear as the sun, well, you beleive that the quran have been written by people, well, yes sure, but not with the knoledge of people, it's what we call, like, a call from god to that person, or something...anyway, i beleive it, if you don't; it's our opinion, also, searchign about those things in quran, are not a work, are like a hobbyfor someone, not a work for living or something, it's like, a study, in that case, you say it's a waste of time, then painting is a waste of time, i'm not saying we should close laborotries and stop education and search in quran, i mean, that's what maked some arab countries go backward after it's golden ages hundreds of years ago, also, you're not gettign what i mean, to find things in quran, doesnt mean it's a science book, it increase our faith and our beleif in it, also,quran is not the source of the science, or the discoveries in science, you can find in it, but you can't know it is in it, and i know exactly what you're talking about, effcorse, anyone one can understand that. so, quran is not the reason of the development of nations, in islam itself, it says that a person that works and study, is better than a person who always pray and pass hours in the mosque intill he forget life, humans, we, are created to work, and worship god/allah, we are created to live in the univerce, to spread our race, in the univerce, not the earth, and it's our duty to search for knoledge (i just wish if all muslim countries apply that...).
what you understanded from me, is that i think that quran is the source of knoledge and everything and we shoudl close univercities and laboratries and start reading quran, no that's not what i think, what i meant by mentioning many things, is, if quran is written by humans, then, they must be developed like us today, to know all those stuff, how would they know in the past about black holes? and it's mentioned in clear words, it's called(like to give it a description) broom, also the worm holes, in a clear arabic words, al-mieraj, means like a short cut, or a passage, anyway, and many other things that impress me, effcorse not we should stop science and read quran all the time, but what i meant is, that, it's greater than a just a book, written by humans like you say, with human knoledge, i know it sounds weird and far from truth to you to say that allah/god is the source of quran, and bible(but humans changed it, also turah) but, i do beleive it, so, it's not a problem, as you said, you know someone, who beleive in ghost, but, so what, you don't have any problem with, inless he's going to heart people, or heart you, anyway, so, it's just a matter of prespective, it's not easy for you to beleive what i'm saying and you'll just say that it's mentioned like, for example you read the word "cat" in a book, so you say, OMG, evolution is mentioned in that book! no it's not like that, but it's in clear words, but translating it to english, usually, loosed it's meaning, so usually it should be translated very carefully, and translate it's meaning, actually, to today, i mean, normal people, can't understand the quran, at least all of it, just a few of it, anyway, you can try to make a fast search about that in google. for example, about space and quran or something, anyway, you think about it, but usually in arabic is better and more clear, anyway...
so the final point, i never said, that quran is a science book, or a knoledge book, that we should close all univercities and stare at the quran waiting to find something... in that case, also by just staring at it, you want find anything, inless you notice it, while you know about it in science, for example, in quran, human body materials, are all found in a mudd pie, humans are like a mudd pie, everything in the mudd pir, you'll find it in human, the materials i mean,; and that's a scientific fact, i saw it on national geography a week ago, and in quran, it's the same thing mentioned..don't know wich part, sorry i don't memorize the quran.
anyway...you got my point.
I got to admit Michael this is your most absurd thread about Islam, yet. You barely even know a thing about Islam, yet, because of a book that you just found out about you can state with authority that Islam = Christianity and that Muhammad = Jesus Christ? Like it's some sort of established fact? Come on, this is ridiculous.
It's not an established fact but it seems like a very reasonable hypothesis.
Some facts though are:
- - All the information we posses on the origins of Islam is taken from later texts – "biographies" that were written in the 9th and 10th centuries... we lack any corroborating contemporary texts for the first two centuries.
-- According to the evidence of Christian literature under Arab rule from the 7th and 8th centuries, as well as from Arab coinage and inscriptions from this period, such as that on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, the new rulers adhered to a Syrian-Persian form of Christianity that rejected the decisions of the Council of Nicaea. Instead, it regarded Jesus as the messenger, the prophet, the servant of God, but not the physical son of God.
-- It has been established that the earliest coinage with the motto MHMT appeared in eastern Mesopotamia around 660, made their way westward, and there bilingual coins were stamped with MHMT in the center and muhammad in Arabic script at the edge. These coins bear a Christian iconography, i.e. always with crosses, so that the name muhammad is clearly to be understood as a predicate of Jesus, as in the Sanctus of the mass ("praise be to he that comes...").
The point isn't that we do know for certain but that we don't. The door is open for discovering the truth
That the earliest use of the word Mohammad is as a motto on a coin, that people later interpreted to be a Prophet is interesting. I'm sure if we were talking about Thor or Zeus you'd probably think, huh, that is interesting and seems reasonable. It's only that this happens to be your religion that it's no suddenly unreasonable. There are probably more detailed stories about Hercules than Mohammad - that doesn't mean either of them truly existed :shrug:
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
I will perhaps respond more properly to your post later, I just wanted to comment on the following for now.
Not really.
I have heard this argument before but in my opinion it seems absurd. I am not a Numismatist and I don't think you are either, so niether of us can really say what the true meaning of the coin is. I will also say that in America I have found coins that say "In God We Trust," while also having a picture of Abraham Lincoln, what is the meaning of this coin?
Not really.
I have heard this argument before but in my opinion it seems absurd. I am not a Numismatist and I don't think you are either, so niether of us can really say what the true meaning of the coin is. I will also say that in America I have found coins that say "In God We Trust," while also having a picture of Abraham Lincoln, what is the meaning of this coin?
I think a better parallel would be coins minted with the title The Mohammad President Lincoln... Maybe we stamp this onto our coins now?I have heard this argument before but in my opinion it seems absurd. I am not a Numismatist and I don't think you are either, so niether of us can really say what the true meaning of the coin is. I will also say that in America I have found coins that say "In God We Trust," while also having a picture of Abraham Lincoln, what is the meaning of this coin?
This argument only seems absurd - because it's your belief being analyzed. If we were instead discussing coins with pictures of Zeus and Athena and a mention of Hercules, you'd probably think: huh ... yeah, seems plausable. Of course you'd be looking for a rational, non-Pantheon of Greek Deities logical explanation for the mythical stories behind the Hercules Protagonist. You'd be very open to the idea there may have been a Hercules, but, maybe he'd simple been made up.
You're just not able to do this because we're dealing with your own belief. But, as I'm atheist, I don't see a difference in the way we should analyze evidence for Hercules compared with evidence of Mohammad. Zeus, Thor, Amaterasu, Xenu, Allah - they should all be dealt with in the same logical rational manner. Don't you agree?
DOES anyone still REALLY think the Jews built the Pyramids? :bugeye: Archeology has shown this was not the case and that the exodus (as portrayed in the Torah) didn't happen. There's no contemporary evidence of Jesus. Archeology suggests he didn't really exist (and there were a LOT of Jesus-like protagonists, as well as some sects of Xians who didn't believe he was a real person! He didn't have to exist in their form of Christianity (Gnostics). Some Xians thought he was Satan).
Anyway, I'm finding the research very very fascinating indeed - and it's ONLY just beginning. Imagine all the new discoveries we'll uncover. That aside, I suppose what you want to ask yourself is: IF the truth is there was no Mohammad ..... would really you want to know? The likelihood Hercules, Jesus, Moses or Mohammad really existed is highly improbable.
Last edited:
Nice try but no cigar. My question is using the same logic as you are, sorry mate.
No, it seems absurd on it's face. After Muslims conquerored the Byzantine and Sassanid empires they adopted the previous adminstrative systems and the same monetary system of the two empires they conquerored. There is coins that have Zoroastrian images as well. The coins were slowly changed overtime. The Byzantine was Christian and the Sassanians were Zoroastrian. To me, the only thing this coin would really suggest is that after the conquest, the Muslims used the existing monetary system and slowly implemented changes over time. Again, following your logic, Abraham Lincoln = God. This is why it seems absurd.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Coins/
Fuck off, again this sort of pretentious attitude you show towards me is childish. "Oh, lawlz, I can't expect you to believe my arguments, you see, you are mentally handicapped due to religion, poor, poor, Ja'far." I mean, really, come on. I'm sorry, I'm being skeptical of this.
Has nothing to do with the topic at hand and thus irrelevant.
ja'far, i sugest you stop discussing with him about it, he's head is like a rock, he pertend to be educated and know what is he talking about, but he's just a backwar, he's just like sandy, but sandy is better, because she says everything she think, without trying to make games... beleive, it's useless to discuss with him.
also, he's always insulting people like he was our boss...
I missed your point to begin with.
Coins that carry Lincoln's image carry the motto "In God We Trust". If an archeologist were to discover this coin in the future I think it would be reasonable that she may conclude that The President is putting his trust in (In God we Trust) and is asking for protection from the Christian God. Or she may hypothesis that the picture of Lincoln is a picture of God. To determine which is true she'd need to take a look at the rest of the archeological evidence - - especially coinage. For example, she'd find many coins without the motto In God We Trust - but carrying the image of Lincoln. She'd find coins with other presidents' pictures but with the same motto. She'd find contemporary evidence from other cultures that there were such leaders called Presidents and one was named Lincoln. Over time she'd peace together a picture.
I seriously doubt she's conclude there was a Real God or Lincoln was a Real God, or even a Prophet of God. But, yes, she'd do her best to create a logical rational picture and over time this would be fleshed out.
So, yes, I agree it certainly is possible that initially the image of Lincoln could be interpreted as an image of a God.
As for the coins with Mohammad, it appears that the use of the word Mohammad is as a Title for Jesus Christ. Given the history we know and the other types of coins from the area. This suggests that the word Mohammad was originally used as a Title. It may mean something else - that is for sure. I agree with some of your second paragraph (see below).
Firstly, it's not absurd to hypothesize that Abraham Lincoln's image was that of a God. It's a reasonable hypothesis. Why would that be absurd??? It is absurd to think Lincoln was really a God. Yes, that would be absurd. Agreed? It is not absurd to think a man named Hercules existed. It is absurd to think Hercules was the son of a real live Goddess. It's not absurd to think the word Mohammad was a motto (or not). It is absurd to think a person named Mohammad spoke with the Gods.
Second, I'm not convinced that Muslim's ever "conquered" the Roman's in these vast battles as we used to think. I pretty much thought of Arabs horseman much like the Mongolian horsemen that invaded and conquered China (records suggest Mongolians killed about 80 million Chinese to do so and conscripted vast others). I used to think the Arabs did invade as an Army. But, now I'm changing my mind. There's not record of these events happening (unlike the case of the Mongolians for which there is ample evidence). It's more likely that these big Arab-Roman battles were actually earlier battles between Persians and Romans and were then later overwritten to seem as if "Arabs" fought these battles. The historical evidence suggests the Byzantine had been withdrawing it's legions for over 100 years and the Empire didn't have the troupes to fight these battles. The Empire was in decline and the Roman side simply didn't exist in it's earlier numbers. It's more than likely Arab raiders just settled as they found themselves in an unguarded/weekly garrisoned land - with little or no Byzantine armies giving them resistance. As for the battles against the Persians. These seem more likely - for now.
RE: Coin
I do agree that there probably was a blending of all these various Christianities, myths and beliefs and that this is what was to become Islam ..... over a long period of time. What you seem to be missing though, in your hypothesis (and why I don't think it is logical) is there is no evidence that "Muslims" existed at the time these coins were minted. I've never seen any contemporary evidence that Arabs ever referred to themselves as "Muslim" during that time period. Do you have some such contemporary evidence? It seems more reasonable that "Islam" coalesced centuries AFTER these coins were minted. Which is why the idea that Mohammad was simply a Title for Christ makes much more sense - as these people were one of the sects of Christianity.
As an aside: Did you know one of the Roman Emperors was Arab? Arabs also lived in England. Syrians often migrated to Rome and lived in Italy. There was a lot mixing up of ideas and peoples.
Last edited:
Not surprising at all. I also don't have the desire to address your commentary on my joke either. You're the one asserting that because 'mhmd' was on a coin and that a cross appears on the reverse that, that means Muhammad was a title for Christ and thus Muhammad = Jesus Christ. Putting aside the fact that this notion is ridiculous, I would say it's no different than saying because "In God We Trust," is on a coin and so is the picture of Abraham Lincoln that Lincoln = God. Did it ever occur to you that, this hypothesis could be wrong? Why arguing like this is established fact? "It would appear," my ass.
Are you even serious? Really? I mean really, so there was never a Umayyad caliphate (which is the time period the coin came from, if I'm not mistaken, I believe specifically that Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan was the caliph at the time, whom ruled between 685-750)? The Abbasid caliphate? They were Islamic caliphates and thus referred to themselves as Muslims. Funny how Westerners bitch about Islamic conquests and expansion and so forth and now, you're denying this? You're view of history is becoming more ridiculous by the second. Seriously.
Brown: Expansion under the Prophet Muhammad (saw), 622-632.
Orange: Expansion under the Rashidun caliphate, 632-661.
Yellow: Expansion during the Umayyad caliphate, 661-750.
Infact, here is some coins minted under the Umayyad caliphate.
click here
Date: 695 C.E.
click here
Date: 695 C.E.
Here, check out these links:
click here
click here
Really now? There is no evidence that Muslims even existed or minted coins? Who are you trying to fool? Do you not research things before you go off and pontificate? I admit, it is pretty easy to assert your opinion by saying "nope, no evidence for it, it didn't even exist, nope."
Last edited:
ja'far, i sugest you stop discussing with him about it, he's head is like a rock, he pertend to be educated and know what is he talking about, but he's just a backwar, he's just like sandy, but sandy is better, because she says everything she think, without trying to make games... beleive, it's useless to discuss with him.
also, he's always insulting people like he was our boss...
So you figured it out too? :roflmao:
Peace be unto you