New Book: The Hidden Origins of Islam

[Michael]

That's another thing, why doesn't the Bible ever mention hermaphrodites? Isn't that proof of the imperfection of our creator?

I asked someone this once. They just pull more bullshit out of their arse. It's like when children are trying to explain a monster under the bed.

Q: Why can't I see it?
A: It's now in the closet.

Q: We checked it isn't there either.
A: It likes to hide and it can be invisible.

Q: Why does it turn invisible?
A: I likes to because it likes to scare little kids. Well, sometimes it doesn't. It likes little kids too.

Q: Does it like you?
A: Sometimes, I think it likes it when I get to eat ice cream and have pizza. Then it really likes me and I don't get scared....


The answer they usually pull is your classic: It's a test. Sure this doesn't mean anything, but, whatever... I still get to go to heaven right?

 

[Big Chiller]

I don't know if I'd say "supposed to have" but yes, normally that is the case. However, that's not always the case. Sometimes people are born XY and are female physically. Even they wouldn't know they are XY and would assume they were XX.

What do you mean exactly do you mean the person looks female and has male sex organs or does it have female sex organs such a person wouldn't be common. In any case normal men and women being homosexual is the case in point here.

Most women (including Muslim women) do NOT want a man to have other wives. Yet, you just said it was moral to do so.

Why do you think it's moral for a man to have multiple wives but are not sure if a woman can have multiple husbands?

I don't see why consenting adults can't solve a problem like that if the man really does manage to care for, love, communicate with, and provide for all his wives equally. The first wife can always be asked for permission on this. If the man is able and rich enough why not, not that men have to take up multiple wives.

 

[iceaura]

I don't know if polyandry is immoral, but I do know it's odd to the nature of the woman and most women don't want to commit polyandry.

It's normal some places, and at least some women seem to have no problem with it everywhere.

The female emperor of China who installed a harem of men for herself was maybe unusually direct about the matter, but clearly women with enough power can handle multiple husbands at least as easily as men can handle multiple wives - physically, more easily.

Economically, it makes a lot more sense as well - multiply the jobholders, rather than the babymakers, and everybody is better taken care of.

I doubt it's the woman's "nature" that poses the main obstacle - it's not odd to her.

 

[scifes]

I'll look at the coins when I have time

.
i heard those exact words before... when you kept whining about how we don't know the names of those who wrote the quran and kept taunting me in your usual way enough for me to haul my lazy ass and look for the names of those who were listed and and double check them from different sources and translating them myself(as i only found the list in arabic) and after posting it that was what you said, "i'll take a look at it later". 15.3 seconds later you were at it again in some other thread, "proving" how the quran was written after the prophet's death by centuries bla bla bla, and my list??....uh.....what list?

you're a sad and sometimes funny case michael, a live example of the depths one would go to confirm a personal fantasy, just thank god for the fresh ones that pop every once in a while to enter the track and run in the circles with you, till a new one takes over.

 

[(Q)]

Number one, I don't have to tell anyone to shut up

But, you will anyways, just like a toddler in a kindergarten playground.

I also, would like for you to prove to me how I'm the least bit misogynistic. Explain this to me. Put down this pretentious Western bravado bullshit you have going and explain to me how me or my views are misogynistic. Until you do this, you're just throwing out words of which I don't think you even fully understand.

I've been doing so as we've been going along, but you're so wrapped up in the playground mentality, you don't seem to notice.

I have yet to be proven wrong by anyone thus I would say that's debatable.

Of course, you're right and everyone else in wrong. Bravo! :bravo:

How about you prove to me that polygamy is barbaric or misogynistic?

Pay attention.

Using this quote isn't a valid argument nor do I necessarily agree with the quote.

No misogynist would agree. Duh.

Monogamy is actually the standard in Islam

For women.

however polygamy is also recognized as a form of relationship that Muslim consenting adults can enter.

Men only.

Also, find it odd and funny how you, a Western non-Muslim male, can comment with apparent authority on how Muslim men treat Musilmas

I lived with Muslim families in both Northern Africa and the Middle East. Of course, one need not go so far as to place themselves amongst them when those Muslims themselves demonstrate to the whole world their barbaric acts.

It appears to me that this is just another case of White men trying to save those poor oppressed brown girls from us barbaric, savage brown men.

And, you're a racist too. How quaint and so predictable.

 

[(Q)]

I don't see why consenting adults can't solve a problem like that if the man really does manage to care for, love, communicate with, and provide for all his wives equally. The first wife can always be asked for permission on this. If the man is able and rich enough why not, not that men have to take up multiple wives.

And, then he becomes a cattle baron. LOL!!

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

But, you will anyways, just like a toddler in a kindergarten playground.

How cute. Trying to compare me to a child for saying shut up? Please, last time I checked this is an internet forum and making a small remark, isn't that big of a deal and I believe I said "shut up or prove it," meaning shut up or prove what your saying. Also, you haven't are not offering any counter-arguments at all. Why bother posting? To get some "snarky," last remarks about your hysterical and psychotic views of Islam and Muslims? Not going to happen.

I've been doing so as we've been going along

No, you haven't at all. Saying "Islam is misogynistic and psychotic," and "polygamy is misogynistic," and other such bullshitery doesn't qualify as arguments or counter-arguments. You have to demonstrate that they are infact X, it's not self-evident and I assume you're trying to "debate," this therefore it's up to you to provide clear arguments and counter-arguments with ojective evidences and proof of your argument. Not slander and anecdotal evidence.

Of course, you're right and everyone else in wrong. Bravo!

Did I say that? No, I did not, if I felt that way I would have said so, thank you.

Pay attention.

I am, you're just not offering shit. Duh.

No misogynist would agree. Duh.

This doesn't even make any sense. Duh.

For women.

For everyone. This assertion doesn't even make sense.

I lived with Muslim families in both Northern Africa and the Middle East.

Oh, I'm sure you have.

Even assuming this anecdotal evidence is true, as I have said many times all Muslims are human and domestice violence exists everywhere. If I went to live with a family in America and the man was abusive to his wife, should I then assume this is how all Americans treat their wives? Come on.

And, you're a racist too. How quaint and so predictable.

It's not racist at all to say this, perhaps if I had my head up my ass maybe it would seem so.

 

[(Q)]

It's not racist at all to say this, perhaps if I had my head up my ass maybe it would seem so.

It's either a huge ass or your head is very tiny. Which is it?

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

It's either a huge ass or your head is very tiny. Which is it?

Again, this doesn't make any sense, sorry, try again.

 

[Michael]

.
i heard those exact words before... when you kept whining about how we don't know the names of those who wrote the quran and kept taunting me in your usual way enough for me to haul my lazy ass and look for the names of those who were listed and and double check them from different sources and translating them myself(as i only found the list in arabic) and after posting it that was what you said, "i'll take a look at it later". 15.3 seconds later you were at it again in some other thread, "proving" how the quran was written after the prophet's death by centuries bla bla bla, and my list??....uh.....what list?

.

scifes, you gave a list of names but didn't provide any of the information I asked. For all I know this is a list of names you pulled out of your Sunday Bible study class.

Lets make it easy. Simply list one of the authors of the Qur'an, exactly which sections he wrote, the date he wrote down each of those sections (hell even one of those sections) and a Journal reference where this information can be verified by orthographers in the field.

As for the coins. Which coin are you referring to?

you're a sad and sometimes funny case michael, a live example of the depths one would go to confirm a personal fantasy, just thank god for the fresh ones that pop every once in a while to enter the track and run in the circles with you, till a new one takes over

I'll be waiting on the evidence.

Interestingly, as we look closer and closer at the actual archeological evidence, we see these are simply myths. No different than any of the other Gods and Goddess. Sure, you can happily keep living your life worshipping whatever Gods you were taught as a child to believe in. There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, worship Xenu, millions of people do. :shrug: However, if you want to post, back it up with evidence.

As it stands, the coin posted clearly indicates that the word Mohammad was used as a title for Jesus. See, that's a fact Scifes, we have the coin. Now, ask yourself Scifes, how do you suppose all those Bible stories got into the Qur'an? Oh, er, um.... Magical angels floated from da clouds Georgie, and Mohammad road a winged horsey Georgie, and magic and Harry Potter and a Perfect Book *poof* Georgie ....
OR, now I know this is really way out there, I mean WAY WAY WAAAAAAAY out there: Islam developed out of Christianity.

Just like Judaism grew out of Canaanite myths.
Buddhism came from Hinduism.
Mormonism came from Christianity.
Roman Gods came from Greek Gods.
Bahai' came from Islam.

Islam came from Christianity - that's why the Qur'an is 80% Biblical stories.


Ohhhh, but you have a different theory? What would that be Scifes? Let me guess "Magic" and "Harry Potter" and "Allah' and "Flying Brooms...errr Horses".... I won't say you're sad, just simple.





Oh, and Scifes, perhaps I missed it, but, you didn't post the day the World's ONLY Perfect book was completed. What day was that again? Oh, hell, how about just posting the year (you can usually find these on the inside cover LOL) include cited reference.

 

[Big Chiller]

It's normal some places, and at least some women seem to have no problem with it everywhere.

The female emperor of China who installed a harem of men for herself was maybe unusually direct about the matter, but clearly women with enough power can handle multiple husbands at least as easily as men can handle multiple wives - physically, more easily.

Economically, it makes a lot more sense as well - multiply the jobholders, rather than the babymakers, and everybody is better taken care of.

I doubt it's the woman's "nature" that poses the main obstacle - it's not odd to her.

A harem and a marital bond aren't the same thing, a harem is easily immoral.

Can a woman really divide her love, attention, and support to multiple spouses, would she even want to. A man would always try to convince the woman to pick him over her other spouses would he not and could force her.

 

[Michael]

Ja'far,

Now I'm confused. In regards to consulting adults:

It's moral for some men to have 5 or more wives?

Is it moral for some women to have a couple of husbands?


In regards to morality, can explain why you feel that way?

 

[Big Chiller]

Michael,


Boy you are a deluded fellow.

 

[iceaura]

A harem and a marital bond aren't the same thing, a harem is easily immoral.

You may be right:

The word harem is strictly applicable to Muslim households only,

Can a woman really divide her love, attention, and support to multiple spouses, would she even want to.

That's up to the woman, isn't it?

A man would always try to convince the woman to pick him over her other spouses would he not and could force her.

I thought you were worried about the woman's nature?

Apparently what the woman wants and can manage is not the actual area of difficulty.

But surely no man would jeopardize his houseright and his status by "forcing" a woman who could evict him and divorce him, make him homeless and penniless, for such a breach of promise and abdication of responsibility. So if the question is one of power, that is a legal and societal matter - not one of a woman's "nature".

The Chinese ruler who kept multiple men around had no problem with being "forced".

So the origins of Islam, being hidden, do not tell us much about the basis of Islam's declarations regarding the "nature" of women. These assertions do not appear to rest in incontrovertible facts, or even informed observation.

 

[(Q)]

Ja'far,

Now I'm confused. In regards to consulting adults:

It's moral for some men to have 5 or more wives?

Is it moral for some women to have a couple of husbands?


In regards to morality, can explain why you feel that way?

They have no morals, Michael, they don't know what you're talking about. They get their values from myths and superstitions.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

They have no morals, Michael, they don't know what you're talking about. They get their values from myths and superstitions.

This isn't true in the slightest especially in terms of me personally considering I'm Shi'a and itijihad is often used. In terms of Atheist-Theist dialogue this kind of pointless generalizations and slander isn't productive at all. I mean seriously. As for you, Michael I will address your post later.

 

[(Q)]

This isn't true in the slightest especially in terms of me personally considering I'm Shi'a

LOL! I'm in stitches here, please stop! :roflmao:

 

[Michael]

Michael,


Boy you are a deluded fellow.

Has Allah ever spoken to you? I mean, as in a real live voice in your head? Just curious, seeing as in you brought up the notion of deluded.


That aside, I didn't fully comprehend your answer below:

Most women (including Muslim women) do NOT want a man to have other wives. Yet, you just said it was moral to do so.

Why do you think it's moral for a man to have multiple wives but are not sure if a woman can have multiple husbands?

I don't see why consenting adults can't solve a problem like that if the man really does manage to care for, love, communicate with, and provide for all his wives equally. The first wife can always be asked for permission on this. If the man is able and rich enough why not, not that men have to take up multiple wives.

So, it is moral for a man to have 5 or more wives (if he can "handle them")? I just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly.

Also, is it moral for an adult female to have a consensual relationship with 4 husbands (we'll say she can "handle" them just fine)?

If you could clarify that's be great.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

LOL! I'm in stitches here, please stop! :roflmao:

I expect an idiot to laugh.

وَعِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الَّذِينَ يَمْشُونَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ هَوْنًا وَإِذَا خَاطَبَهُمُ الْجَاهِلُونَ قَالُوا سَلَامًا

 

[Michael]

They get their values from myths and superstitions.

I think for religious people that is the case. Take the example of Christians living in Iraq (or Bahai' in Iran). They tend to think polygamy is immoral even though they live in a society were polygamy is supposedly moral.

Although I have to say, most Iranians I meet think polygamy is immoral and only for backwards country-bumpkins and Arabs (yes, most Persian snub their noses at Arabs - you could think of it as resentment at having been colonized). I've had more than one Iranian woman tell me that about polygamy.

I've known a Arab woman living in London who was really worried about moving back to KSA - mainly because there, her husband might take a new "young" wife. That was a worry, even though things were going fine in London. Or seemed to be. But, she worried, what happens when she is in her late 30s and he wants a new (almost always younger) woman??? Then she'll have to shut up and pretend to like it. Even though she said she'd almost want to commit suicide. I think it's part of the reason why women are so dis-empowered politically, legally and socially. It keeps them in check. She said their relationship was great in London and she hoped to never go back to KSA.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of men who think they "can handle multiple wives" and that they have a happy household of 3 or 4 women - all the while these guys don't realize that all of those women hate him and hate each other. So, he happily lives in a lie thinking he is "a man" and handling "his woman" only to die never loved by any of them. Sad.


That aside, so, we've established that for some people it's moral to have up to 4 wives, how about 5 wives? What about women? Supposing a woman had an open relationship, where 4 other men truly wanted to all marry her and live together, is that moral?