Native American Spirituality

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that many Native Americans only had simple tools for defense and offence so when the whites came to North America they just killed those who stood in their way with these types of guns and cannons. The Native Americans couldn't understand why they were being driven off of THEIR lands by these cowards that only fought with guns for the Native Americans never used such weapons against each other when they fought. To make a simple gun back then would have ment that many other techniques had to be developed first, iron casting, mold making etc..
 
cosmictraveler said:
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that many Native Americans only had simple tools for defense and offence so when the whites came to North America they just killed those who stood in their way with these types of guns and cannons. The Native Americans couldn't understand why they were being driven off of THEIR lands by these cowards that only fought with guns for the Native Americans never used such weapons against each other when they fought. To make a simple gun back then would have ment that many other techniques had to be developed first, iron casting, mold making etc..
Click to expand...

another way to talk about the issue might be:

are those who are most interested in and capable of developing weapons necessarily the right ones to run and manage society/the world?
 
The saying " might makes right" has been around for thousands of years now and it seems that mindset is still being adhered to today. Christians throughout history have used their superior weapons to overthrow indiginous peoples everywhere. They only want to take by force what's not there's and that makes them the worst of all types. Christians have tortured others and even themselves when those that go against them don't cow tow and obey them.
 
cosmictraveler said:
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that many Native Americans only had simple tools for defense and offence so when the whites came to North America they just killed those who stood in their way with these types of guns and cannons. The Native Americans couldn't understand why they were being driven off of THEIR lands by these cowards that only fought with guns for the Native Americans never used such weapons against each other when they fought. To make a simple gun back then would have ment that many other techniques had to be developed first, iron casting, mold making etc..
Click to expand...

Comon, you have to admit that is a rather simplified and thus inaccurate take, when applied to the whole "Native Americans". In the early days, the european settlers HAD to be friends, particularly in Canada(natives taught the french settlers how to survive the winter). Later on the Native bands each joined in alliances with English or French. Depending on the outcome in their region they may have bet on the "wrong" horse.

When settling the plains, the whites would stick around on what the natives thought was shitty land. Many tribes of course had no concept of "land property" on the plains and they were nomadic. Eventually they ran out of land to be nomadic on, and either fought the numberous settlers or signed (a possibly shitty) deal.

Natives obtained guns, of course they could only do hit and fade tactics for the most part. The main factor in Natives "loosing their land" was simple numbers, they could not contend with the massive numbers of europeans coming over - immigration gone wild and they could do little about it. Some realized this and signed the best deal they could get and some fought, which I personally consider to be noble, but foolish. In Canada again things went smoother as french and some english integrated with Natives and made an entirely new people - the metis, whom the Canadian government handled very poorly after the French gave up Quebec and English took over.

By the time settling came to the far west and pacific, land/treaty deals got smoother. I speak for Canada anyway. In fairness to americans they did have to deal with some honest to god warlike bands. They were preying on other native bands long before the "whiteman" came.
 
Then why were so many treaties made with the Native tribes? Then those treaties were broken and the Native Americans were given shit for land when they were resettled. Why is it that the American government lied, murdered and tortured the Native Americans just to steal their lands away from them for nothing instead of educating them and negotiating a real estate deal?
 
Well I can't comment on that, but you have to admit that breaking treaties, doesn't have a lot to do with guns(at least not now that the natives had no reason to have them in numbers). Canada broke a treaty with Natives in Saskachewan(a minor battle was fought over it), however categorically, every deal "restructured" in Canada has gotten better for Natives or changed insignificantly.

All I know about American broken treaties are in Johnny Cash songs.

As long as the moon shall rise as long as the rivers flow
As long as the sun will shine as long as the grass shall grow

The Senecas are an Indian tribe of the Iroquios nation
Down on the New York Pennsylvania Line you'll find their reservation
After the US revolution cornplanter was a chief
He told the tribe these men they could trust that was his true belief
He went down to Independence Hall and there was a treaty signed
That promised peace with the USA and Indian rights combined
George Washington gave his signature the Government gave its hand
They said that now and forever more that this was Indian land
As long as the moon shall rise...

On the Seneca reservation there is much sadness now
Washington's treaty has been broken and there is no hope no how
Across the Allegheny River they're throwing up a dam
It will flood the Indian country a proud day for Uncle Sam
It has broke the ancient treaty with a politician's grin
It will drown the Indians graveyards cornplanter can you swim
The earth is mother to the the Senecas they're trampling sacred ground
Change the mint green earth to black mud flats as honor hobbles down
As long as the moon shall rise...

The Iroquios Indians used to rule from Canada way south
But no one fears the Indians now and smiles the liar's mouth
The Senecas hired an expert to figure another site
But the great good army engineers said that he had no right
Although he showed them another plan and showed them another way
They laughed in his face and said no deal Kinuza dam is here to stay
Congress turned the Indians down brushed off the Indians plea
So the Senecas have renamed the dam they call it Lake Perfidy
As long as the moon shall rise...

Washington Adams and Kennedy now hear their pledges ring
The treaties are safe we'll keep our word but what is that gurgling
It's the back water from Perfidy Lake it's rising all the time
Over the homes and over the fields and over the promises fine
No boats will sail on Lake Perfidy in winter it will fill
In summer it will be a swamp and all the fish will kill
But the Government of the USA has corrected George's vow
The father of our country must be wrong what's an Indian anyhow
As long as the moon shall rise (look up) as long as the rivers flow (are you thirsty)
As long as the sun will shine (my brother are you warm) as long as the grass shall grow
Click to expand...
 
nietzschefan said:
Well I can't comment on that, but you have to admit that breaking treaties, doesn't have a lot to do with guns.
Click to expand...

If you were told that you were going to be resettled in an area similiar to where you live would you go not knowing wether or not it is true? You go because they have GUNS pointed at you heads. Then you get to where you're going and find shit for land and you cannot leave because you have GUNS pointed at your heads!
 
cosmictraveler said:
Then why were so many treaties made with the Native tribes? Then those treaties were broken and the Native Americans were given shit for land when they were resettled.
Click to expand...

Anyone who views the Native Americans as a single, cohesive group is woefully ignorant of reality.

I would also say that anyone who views the white men who settled in North America as a single, cohesive group is also woefully ignorant of the reality of the situation.

cosmictraveler said:
Why is it that the American government lied, murdered and tortured the Native Americans just to steal their lands away from them for nothing instead of educating them and negotiating a real estate deal?
Click to expand...

One could ask the say question of almost any group of humans in all of history of humans. As far as I know, there's no land on Earth that belongs to it's "rightful" owner. If you know of one, please tell me.

Baron Max
 
cosmictraveler said:
If you were told that you were going to be resettled in an area similiar to where you live would you go not knowing wether or not it is true? You go because they have GUNS pointed at you heads. Then you get to where you're going and find shit for land and you cannot leave because you have GUNS pointed at your heads!
Click to expand...

It just proves that the Native Americans fucked up by not inventing guns before the Europeans arrived. If the Native Americans had invented nuclear missiles and jet aircraft, then everything would have been different .....and we'd now be arguing about why the NA's kept wiping out the white man!

Baron Max
 
cosmictraveler said:
If you were told that you were going to be resettled in an area similiar to where you live would you go not knowing wether or not it is true? You go because they have GUNS pointed at you heads. Then you get to where you're going and find shit for land and you cannot leave because you have GUNS pointed at your heads!
Click to expand...

Every single brave could have had an m15 rifle and it wouldn't make a difference. The numbers make the power.
 
nietzschefan said:
Every single brave could have had an m15 rifle and it wouldn't make a difference. The numbers make the power.
Click to expand...

Well, that's a pretty simplistic statement. In fact, if the NAs had had M16 automatic weapons and enough ammo, with the Americans using muzzleloading rifles, my guess is that the Americans wouldn't have stood a chance in hell.

Even as it was in the American West, when the whites had repeating rifles and pistols, the natives weren't so easily conquered even when they used bows and arrows.

I think, though there's no proof of it, if the NA's of the American west had formed one cohesive group, with the goal of keeping the Americans east of the Mississippi River, they could have done it easily ...at least for a long time. But the natives were tribal, and small tribes at that. Even the great Cheyenne nation was a loosely held collection of smaller tribes that seldom had the same goals or values.

Baron Max
 
cosmictraveler said:
Then why were so many treaties made with the Native tribes? Then those treaties were broken and the Native Americans were given shit for land when they were resettled. Why is it that the American government lied, murdered and tortured the Native Americans just to steal their lands away from them for nothing instead of educating them and negotiating a real estate deal?
Click to expand...

While technology may have helped the Europeans, the more decisive factors were (1) the American Indians were too trusting (especially early on before the Europeans were able to establish themselves in America) and (2) the American Indians were too divided amongst themselves. You look at those treaties and you'll see that one party (the US gov't) is making treaties with 100's of different nations. By the time the Indians started to unite multiple tribes it was already too late.
 
Baron Max said:
Well, that's a pretty simplistic statement. In fact, if the NAs had had M16 automatic weapons and enough ammo, with the Americans using muzzleloading rifles, my guess is that the Americans wouldn't have stood a chance in hell.

Even as it was in the American West, when the whites had repeating rifles and pistols, the natives weren't so easily conquered even when they used bows and arrows.

I think, though there's no proof of it, if the NA's of the American west had formed one cohesive group, with the goal of keeping the Americans east of the Mississippi River, they could have done it easily ...at least for a long time. But the natives were tribal, and small tribes at that. Even the great Cheyenne nation was a loosely held collection of smaller tribes that seldom had the same goals or values.

Baron Max
Click to expand...


I mean at the time the government fucked em on treaties - 1950s/60s etc. m15 days.
 
Baron Max said:
Anyone who views the Native Americans as a single, cohesive group is woefully ignorant of reality.

I would also say that anyone who views the white men who settled in North America as a single, cohesive group is also woefully ignorant of the reality of the situation.

Baron Max
Click to expand...
Sure. But that could also be said of Nazis and Jews in Germany.
There are in fact responsibilities that are different in kind between groups. One should always remember that groups are made of individuals, but this does not mean that in conflicts between two groups we simply have to say 'some good, some bad on both sides' or 'each group acted both fairly and unfairly'. In fact we can and should notice that sometimes one group acted much worse or much better than the other. Your 'argument' makes it sound like we can never do this.
 
Orleander said:
but with all the natural resources in North/South America and same brain size, why didn't they make metal? Why didn't they evolve?

Because of their love of mother earth. Their religion held them back.
Click to expand...

metal is metal and need not be made.. if someone wants to 'use' metal, they can.. as they did...

why would you assume that they didn't evolve?
 
I think he's pointing out that aboriginal peoples all over the world were quick to modify the metallic goods of invaders or settlers in their regions even if they lacked metallurgy as a culture. Moreover, he didn't cite "steel" as you did, he said metal. And there are many metals that were used by aboriginals in the Americas that weren't "made" through processes like smelting. Gold, silver, and copper are but three. And they were simply dug up out of the ground (or, more commonly, in deposits found in rock outcrops).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top