My path to atheism: Yours? Rebuttals?

[Jan Ardena]

Your consistent claim is that the term "atheism" implies that God IS. Atheists reject your claim.

An atheist, as a person who does not believe in God, implies God Is, but the atheist does not believe.

If the atheist lack a belief in the assertion that God Is, or God exists (in the way any object exists, then it implies God does not exist as far as the the atheist is aware, and thus requires some kind of proof, to account for such assertions.

This is a special pleading for God - exceptionalism that says that God is unlike anything else in our experience. And yet, your actual claim is, in part, that God actually is everything in our experience and more.

Why is it "special pleading"?

Did I say "God is actually everything", or is this another of your misinformed summation. Anyways, can you please provide the quote(s) where I said this.

This is your argument, not mine, isn't it?

You're the one who believes it's possible to believe, or lack belief in something that does not exist.

The problem with this exceptionalist approach to God is that, when all is said and done, you're not suggesting any real alternative way to know that God is real, other than the usual theist "gut feeling" or the magical God sense that you keep implying we all have but which atheists choose not to turn on for whatever reason.

Your reply, as usual is loaded with atheist assumptions. As if we have to look at it from such a perspective.

But you're right I'm not offering any alternative so that you can decide if you want to believe God is real. God does not exist as far as you're aware. That is but one position.

You are saying here, I assume, that you are willing to believe that fairies exist, as long as some people believe in them. Correct? Does that apply to any belief, as far as you're concerned? Or do you again make a special excuse for God?

Maybe that's how you choose to interpret what I said. But as usual you are mistaken.

Once again, we're in Jan's Relativist World of Existence here, in which things can exist for one person and simultaneously not exist for somebody else. Do you think we could have a discussion in which we talk about objective existence, Jan, rather than the purely subjective kind you keep insisting on?

The alternative to become atheist and believe that God doesn't exist. But as you said, we cannot choose to believe, or lack belief. It's simple. The atheist, is as the term suggests, "without God", which is why they cannot believe.

That's the objective view - either things exist for all of us, or they exist for none of us.

Obviously not. God does not exist for atheists (despite assertions or not), and God Is, for theists.

Then you should be content to say that theists believe in God and atheists do not believe in God. But you won't stop there, will you?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Unfortunately, your "position" has many facets, some of which I accept and some of which I utterly reject. I have no issue with you believing whatever you like about God, but in this thread you're also trying to tell me what I (tacitly) believe,

I'm not. I'm telling you that God does not exist, as far as you're aware. Despite lack of assertions. IOW, it is a fact.

The fact is, neither you nor I know if God exists. Your "position", as you keep telling me, is that God IS.

Later on you say "I am not claiming to know things I don't know", yet here you are doing just that.

This is in apparent contradiction to your repeated insistence that God can exist for you but not for me, simultaneously.

I don't need to insist. That is the case. Unless you want to claim, or assert that God does not exist.

I think you need to sort out this issue of relativism in your own mind. That's if you're not just trying to wind us all up with deliberate contradictions.

It's all laid out, very simply. I think what's happening here, is you deliberately obfuscate
, in bid to trip me up, to give you some way gaining ground. But it's really simple James. God doesn't exist as far as you're aware. And everything you remark about God, is done from the perspective that God does not exist. Not satisfied with that, you want to extend that world view to every body.

I see no reason to make a special pleading for God when it comes to existence.

You see it how you see it (atheist perspective). Fortunately not everyone has it.

Why should God's existence be subject to a completely separate set of rules? Why should we use one set of criteria for deciding whether Donald Trump exists, and a completely different set of criteria for deciding whether God exists?

I do understand your anxiety, but it comes as a condition of your atheist position. God does not exist as far as you're aware, and you see everything gfrom that perspective.

Jan.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You are fighting out of your weight and you don't even notice you're on the floor.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You are fighting out of your weight and you don't even notice you're on the floor.

Is this how you pull the wings off flies?

Jan.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Is this how you pull the wings off flies?

Jan.

Come visit, I'll show you.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Come visit, I'll show you.

Where are you?

Jan.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Where are you?

Jan.

Now that would get me in trouble.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Now that would get me in trouble.

Why would it?.

Jan.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why would it?.

Jan.

Not you, you're totally inconsequential.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Not you, you're totally inconsequential.

Thank you.
At least you have the decency to insult me outright. I now know where I stand with you.

Jan.

 

[Kittamaru]

Given that this has devolved into barely veiled threats, I think it's run its course...

 

[James R]

Mod note: Some strands of this discussion are picked up in the following thread:

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/god-is-defined-not-described.160014