That is called, "Lying for Jesus."
My letter to an Atheist
- Thread starter Alan McDougall
- Start date
That is called, "Lying for Jesus."
Alan,
But in your OP you state -
Your primary reason for introducing a god is that EVERYTHING must have a beginning and have a cause.
Now you are saying that NOT EVERYTHING needs a beginning and there can be things that are uncaused.
You cannot have it both ways.
If there can be something that is uncaused when we can destroy your original argument and with equal validity state that the universe is UNCAUSED and is the alpha and omega, etc, and we can avoid the entirely redundnat god part alltogether. Since there is still zero evidence for the possibility of gods then doesn't this sound much more credible?
So according to your statement here not ALL things have a beginning.
But in your OP you state -
This puts you in direct conflict with your yourself.
Your primary reason for introducing a god is that EVERYTHING must have a beginning and have a cause.
Now you are saying that NOT EVERYTHING needs a beginning and there can be things that are uncaused.
You cannot have it both ways.
If there can be something that is uncaused when we can destroy your original argument and with equal validity state that the universe is UNCAUSED and is the alpha and omega, etc, and we can avoid the entirely redundnat god part alltogether. Since there is still zero evidence for the possibility of gods then doesn't this sound much more credible?
alan,
If god and the universe are one and the same thing then we can simply discard the god notation since it adds nothing of value.
This is pantheism. Einstein argued the same way, but what you call intelligence he called the laws of physics. He also stated he was an atheist.
If god and the universe are one and the same thing then we can simply discard the god notation since it adds nothing of value.
Typical dodge Jan.
Asking where your God came from is a valid question.
You cannot say 'God always existed', because they precludes God having created us. I shall explain. If God 'has always existed', God is infinitely old. That means God waited infinitely before creating the Universe. That means the Universe has not yet been created by God, because an infinite amount of time has not yet passed.
Simple logic that proves if your God exists, they had a moment of creation, just like everything else.
Yes, I agree, but here is a rebuttal that addresses some of Alan's key points. I posted this earlier, but you must have missed it.
http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Where universe from.htm
Hipparchia
Registered Senior Member
Hi Alan. I'm not sure I can agree with your choice of words.
You describe DNA as unimaginable. Crick and Watson managed to imagine it - with more than a little help from Rosalind Franklin. So it is certainly not unimaginable. More than that, many investigators of evolution had imagined a molecule that did exactly what DNA does, they just weren't sure quite what it looked like. Unimaginable just seems a completely wrong choice of word.
You say it is an infinitely complex molecule. Again, I don't see how you can say that - unless you wish to speak only in metaphor and hyperbole. The molecule has a finite length within cells and there is a finite, though large, number of combinations of the nucleotides within the molecule. In terms of the basic structure the molecule is quite simple, certainly not infinitely complex.
Further, you are arguing with the logical fallacy of argument from incredulity. Just because you cannot imagine how DNA might arise you presume it had to have been helped. This very simple organic molecule could likely arise quite easily given a hundred million years or so and an environment replete with prebiotic organic molecules.
You also make the mistake of assuming that life must have arisen on Earth. I am not a fan of panspermia, but it surely must be considered as a possibility.
Overall Alan, the objections I have quoted just don't stand up to close analysis. I hope you will concede that point and we could move on to some of the more interesting positions you have taken up.
Let us think about God, is God an entity albeit a mighty one but separate from the universe and matter an energy, if that is so he can not be eternal he becomes a mere part of the universe not the cause of it.?
As far as Jesus goes I would never call him a liar, he is God contained in human form but until he puts the last enemy under his feet namely death, only then will he pass everything back to god so god can become all in all
Coming back to the DNA molecule it is true that Crick and Watson imagined it, but they did not imagine the awesome complexity of life that this one molecule was all about
1st Corr Chapter 15
As far as Jesus goes I would never call him a liar, he is God contained in human form but until he puts the last enemy under his feet namely death, only then will he pass everything back to god so god can become all in all
Coming back to the DNA molecule it is true that Crick and Watson imagined it, but they did not imagine the awesome complexity of life that this one molecule was all about
1st Corr Chapter 15
palvos,
I have claimed that "I believe God exists", not, "I know that God exists.
As such I am required to prove (if asked) my belief, and/or, give reasons for my claim.
Deal with it or not, it's up to you.
jan.
I have claimed that "I believe God exists", not, "I know that God exists.
As such I am required to prove (if asked) my belief, and/or, give reasons for my claim.
Deal with it or not, it's up to you.
jan.
phlogistician,
If God exists, then He is the cause of the universe, according to all scriptoral accounts. If this is so, then He is the cause of time, meaning He does not fall under its effects. So God is only "infinately old" from our perspective.
Not necessarily.
Why couldn't the universe(s) be created, maintained, and anihilated constantly from God's point of view?
jan.
If God exists, then He is the cause of the universe, according to all scriptoral accounts. If this is so, then He is the cause of time, meaning He does not fall under its effects. So God is only "infinately old" from our perspective.
Not necessarily.
Why couldn't the universe(s) be created, maintained, and anihilated constantly from God's point of view?
jan.
phlog,
Non sequitur, and total gibberish. Infinity in this regard simply means without boundaries, and it is not possible to reach a non-existent boundary. During his existence he would have been free to create and destroy a universe an infinite number of times. If he did create this one then this one is simply the current iteration.
LOL. If the universe is a finite object then what you are saying is that god cannot create any object until he waits an infinite amount of time. Total BS.
Kernl Sandrs
Registered Senior Member
May I pose a question?
If there was a supernatural deity which brought fourth the entire universe into existence, and has unimaginable cosmic powers and knowledge, why then does this "god" care whether or not I get up early on day of the week, meet at a special building, get down on my knees, and "worship" it? I just can't imagine that an entity that has "always existed" would care whether or not I ate meat on a Friday. Seems to me it would have bigger fish to fry (pardon the pun, hehe).
And I say "it" because I don't like it when people say things like "his word" or "he's all-knowing." I just don't think a omnipotent entity would have a gender. To me, if you're calling god male, then he has male parts. Simple has that. You're implying god has a penis. Why would god have a penis? He wouldn't need one. If he "always existed" then can I assume he's the only one of his kind? There are no other gods to speak of? What then would be the purpose of this penis?
The reason people refer to god as a male is way back when they were writing all this down, males were extremely dominant in society, and to have a female god would just be ludicrous.
Actually, I have another question. Do you really believe in everything the bible says? And follow it word for word? Or have you even read the thing?
If there was a supernatural deity which brought fourth the entire universe into existence, and has unimaginable cosmic powers and knowledge, why then does this "god" care whether or not I get up early on day of the week, meet at a special building, get down on my knees, and "worship" it? I just can't imagine that an entity that has "always existed" would care whether or not I ate meat on a Friday. Seems to me it would have bigger fish to fry (pardon the pun, hehe).
And I say "it" because I don't like it when people say things like "his word" or "he's all-knowing." I just don't think a omnipotent entity would have a gender. To me, if you're calling god male, then he has male parts. Simple has that. You're implying god has a penis. Why would god have a penis? He wouldn't need one. If he "always existed" then can I assume he's the only one of his kind? There are no other gods to speak of? What then would be the purpose of this penis?
The reason people refer to god as a male is way back when they were writing all this down, males were extremely dominant in society, and to have a female god would just be ludicrous.
Actually, I have another question. Do you really believe in everything the bible says? And follow it word for word? Or have you even read the thing?
This is the god of my limited perception, by Alan McDougall
Aware of infinite potential in vast unploughed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of cosmic light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence before the timeless moment of creation. I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am This. On the panorama of bleak blackness, I rode on the back of the Absolute, sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement. Illuminating the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant glory was the first event of reason. I formulated in my mind the first number and called it “One”,
With the now realities of the fundamentals of’ “one, and ‘zero”, I made everything. I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my First Cause. I am the Immovable Rock and the Alpha point. I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise. “DO ONE THING, RESPECT ME THE ABSOLUTE ONE.
Aware of infinite potential in vast unploughed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of cosmic light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence before the timeless moment of creation. I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am This. On the panorama of bleak blackness, I rode on the back of the Absolute, sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement. Illuminating the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant glory was the first event of reason. I formulated in my mind the first numbers and called them “One”, and "zero"
With the now realities of the fundamentals of’ “one, and ‘zero”, I made everything. I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my First Cause. I am the Immovable Rock and the Alpha point. I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise. “DO ONE THING RESPECT ME THE LORD
I am the strange mysterious enigma rapped in a paradox encompassed in a new paradigm moving toward an understanding of what puzzles all. The greatest light is my ultimate aim and time is my enemy. However, if I do not hurry to fight darkness, it will come suddenly no matter what, and stalk the land with fear and hate. I put on the Armour of the absolute and prepare to battle the brute. I illuminate the darkness through which I travel, searching out the monster ever before me.
Supreme principal Inscrutable and absolute sublime are some of my qualities. I am the colossal one. Gigantic eyes of mine survey the fields of desolate horror but I do not retract from my purpose. I will isolate the evil monster and be victorious before the end of time. I must hurry
We exist together in fields of nothingness and battle eternal the war continuation of the totality of all existence. If I lose, the universe will blacken all the stars and galaxies dim, blink out, and the universe vanish into the Evil mind of the terrible one. Therefore, I must bring down the terrible one before the black clouds of its dreadful terror destroys all that is good and full of light. It is the abomination of desolation and howls after the souls out of the pit of hell. I am Goodness and beauty and peace are the fruits of my being I dance the song of life with delight. Its aim is to such the life and energy from the universe and to leave it cold dark, barren and remote from the great God forever.
If you listen to Me joy, peace, glory, bliss, rapture, honor, pleasure, delight, elation, euphoria, happiness, purpose, and commune with the eternal infinite mind is your reward forever. However, before all this wonder can come, I the Infinite Eternal and you the redeemed must take on the battle of the mind against this dark Evil Brute. It sends out creatures of the night to kill, lie, destroy, deceive and lead all that listen to its black repulsive horrible mind into its cave of eternal hopelessness, desolation and despair. Be careful of its seductive discordant song.
Composite wickedness made up of malevolent sin and offense to all that is Good it continues unrelentingly to promote iniquity, vice, immorality and abuse against the innocent. It is composite darkness and the alternate to life; it is eternal punishment and death. Do not listen to its whisper in your mind. Exploration, abuse, corruption, and the hordes of lying thieves make up much of its army
The one you serve is your true master no matter what you claim. If you claim to be good, honest and righteous but do the opposite, know that the Evil one of hate is your master indeed.
On Earth and out there in the wonder of the universe this battle of light and darkness, love and hate, good and evil has been raging since the beginning of time and is drawing ever closer to an eternal conclusion. That is why I have kept the universe a secret from humanity up until now.
Love conquers all, is the enemy of time, and leads one to merge with the infinite. Hate leads to destruction, its friend is time, and so it must ultimate end in eternal darkness.
I am the word of life and the arm of the absolute and lead all to the omega-point.
I AM THE LIGHT OF LIFE
Aware of infinite potential in vast unploughed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of cosmic light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence before the timeless moment of creation. I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am This. On the panorama of bleak blackness, I rode on the back of the Absolute, sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement. Illuminating the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant glory was the first event of reason. I formulated in my mind the first number and called it “One”,
With the now realities of the fundamentals of’ “one, and ‘zero”, I made everything. I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my First Cause. I am the Immovable Rock and the Alpha point. I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise. “DO ONE THING, RESPECT ME THE ABSOLUTE ONE.
Aware of infinite potential in vast unploughed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of cosmic light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence before the timeless moment of creation. I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am This. On the panorama of bleak blackness, I rode on the back of the Absolute, sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement. Illuminating the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant glory was the first event of reason. I formulated in my mind the first numbers and called them “One”, and "zero"
With the now realities of the fundamentals of’ “one, and ‘zero”, I made everything. I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my First Cause. I am the Immovable Rock and the Alpha point. I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise. “DO ONE THING RESPECT ME THE LORD
I am the strange mysterious enigma rapped in a paradox encompassed in a new paradigm moving toward an understanding of what puzzles all. The greatest light is my ultimate aim and time is my enemy. However, if I do not hurry to fight darkness, it will come suddenly no matter what, and stalk the land with fear and hate. I put on the Armour of the absolute and prepare to battle the brute. I illuminate the darkness through which I travel, searching out the monster ever before me.
Supreme principal Inscrutable and absolute sublime are some of my qualities. I am the colossal one. Gigantic eyes of mine survey the fields of desolate horror but I do not retract from my purpose. I will isolate the evil monster and be victorious before the end of time. I must hurry
We exist together in fields of nothingness and battle eternal the war continuation of the totality of all existence. If I lose, the universe will blacken all the stars and galaxies dim, blink out, and the universe vanish into the Evil mind of the terrible one. Therefore, I must bring down the terrible one before the black clouds of its dreadful terror destroys all that is good and full of light. It is the abomination of desolation and howls after the souls out of the pit of hell. I am Goodness and beauty and peace are the fruits of my being I dance the song of life with delight. Its aim is to such the life and energy from the universe and to leave it cold dark, barren and remote from the great God forever.
If you listen to Me joy, peace, glory, bliss, rapture, honor, pleasure, delight, elation, euphoria, happiness, purpose, and commune with the eternal infinite mind is your reward forever. However, before all this wonder can come, I the Infinite Eternal and you the redeemed must take on the battle of the mind against this dark Evil Brute. It sends out creatures of the night to kill, lie, destroy, deceive and lead all that listen to its black repulsive horrible mind into its cave of eternal hopelessness, desolation and despair. Be careful of its seductive discordant song.
Composite wickedness made up of malevolent sin and offense to all that is Good it continues unrelentingly to promote iniquity, vice, immorality and abuse against the innocent. It is composite darkness and the alternate to life; it is eternal punishment and death. Do not listen to its whisper in your mind. Exploration, abuse, corruption, and the hordes of lying thieves make up much of its army
The one you serve is your true master no matter what you claim. If you claim to be good, honest and righteous but do the opposite, know that the Evil one of hate is your master indeed.
On Earth and out there in the wonder of the universe this battle of light and darkness, love and hate, good and evil has been raging since the beginning of time and is drawing ever closer to an eternal conclusion. That is why I have kept the universe a secret from humanity up until now.
Love conquers all, is the enemy of time, and leads one to merge with the infinite. Hate leads to destruction, its friend is time, and so it must ultimate end in eternal darkness.
I am the word of life and the arm of the absolute and lead all to the omega-point.
I AM THE LIGHT OF LIFE
Last edited:
Kernl Sandrs
Registered Senior Member
If you guys can't be bothered to come up with something that wasn't blown apart decades ago, and insist on rehashing the same old childishly ignorant bs that was ridicule food decades before DNA was discovered, why should I do all that work every time one of you ignoramuses decides to cut and paste again?jan said:
It's not like you are going to learn anything, or quit posting this garbage - this has to be the fifth or sixth retread just on this forum within the past couple of years.
Go pick up a high school level textbook on combinatorics and probability, learn the basics of at least a simplified version of evolutionary theory, check out a pop science magazine or two for some QED for the masses, put some effort into getting to where you can have this kind of discussion on a casual layman's adult level. With the monkeys and typewriters stuff you're just embarrassing yourselves.
For example:
Uh, dude, when your arguments are such flagrant and obvious bs, you don't have a "conclusion" - you have an empty assertion, at best.jan said:
And if you guys just want to post statements of belief every couple of months, no problem. Much shorter posts, those would be.
Last edited:
Blah blah.
Are you going to respond to any queries or just carry on blogging?
Kernl Sandrs
Registered Senior Member
Kernl Sandrs
Registered Senior Member
Double Blah blah blah to you, may the fleas of ten thousand Camels be lodged in your beard
Why don't you try and read it Rather than make short scoffing comments like the one above
I did read it.
Which, apparently is more courtesy than you have extended to the posters here who have asked questions about you first rant.
Instead of continuing in the same vein why don't you actually reply to the questions?