How would an atheist explain telepathy? It is hard for anyone to explain it, in fact.
My journey from Atheism To Belief in God.
- Thread starter kwhilborn
- Start date
I think u can do good by reading critics of the new age b4 being drawn into it. I have been there and its so psuedoscientific, it leaves creationists hanging their heads in shame.
@ ughaibu and James R.,
I am not speaking about god as if IT were a he/she old man standing on a platform on the clouds proclaiming judgement on the sinners.
I think of god as every vibration in the universe (plus perhaps a tiny bit more). I think that every person also has godlike creative powers, and google "law of attraction" for more information on that sort of thing. That was left out of my journey to belief but was a valid part.
This is a touchy topic for sure, and one that i only have the energy for every few years. I certainly do not gain from the topic.
Imagine you believed in telepathy.
Imagine you believe in telapathy, and that every mind in the universe was connected.
- Would that also include animal minds?
- would the connection be limited to minds, or would it include matter?
If you believed in telepathy how would you explain it. Spend an evening contemplating how you would explain it scientifically.
Once you cross that line of believing in telepathy it opens strange doors. Then you start looking at science you always thought was abhorrent and review your opinions of consciousness in physics.
As I said. I feel sorry for people who have no reason to believe in telepathy, as it does hinder their belief system.
If you want quick statistical proofs I would look at a book called "Dream Telepathy". A series of well organized experiments with double blinds/locked doors/lab settings. The object was for a sender to open a sealed envelope and send the picture into a subjects dream. The results were staggering and defied 75000:1 odds.
I believe the best method is to just try to send thoughts yourself, it is not magic. Once you start getting any kind of eerie results step back and plan experiments with friends or family.
I am not asking anybody to believe in telepathy. I am asking people to keep an open mind long enough to prove it to themselves.
@ Red Devil,
Bible puncher I would say is inaccurate, because I abhor most religions. I think I might be more inclined towards a combination of Buddhism and the "law of attraction" parts of Hindu. In Hindu they If they want money they pray to they god of money. If they want love they pray to the god of love. We call that focus in western "law of attraction" circles.
Promoting my interests I would also claim inaccuracy. The topic warranted me demonstrating my past in dealings with PSI, to demonstrate how I arrived at my current beliefs. If people look at statistics and probabilities, they will discover that even though psychic phenomenon cannot be proven completely there is statistics which defy billion to one odds out there with probabilities telepathy is real.
I am not speaking about god as if IT were a he/she old man standing on a platform on the clouds proclaiming judgement on the sinners.
I think of god as every vibration in the universe (plus perhaps a tiny bit more). I think that every person also has godlike creative powers, and google "law of attraction" for more information on that sort of thing. That was left out of my journey to belief but was a valid part.
This is a touchy topic for sure, and one that i only have the energy for every few years. I certainly do not gain from the topic.
Imagine you believed in telepathy.
Imagine you believe in telapathy, and that every mind in the universe was connected.
- Would that also include animal minds?
- would the connection be limited to minds, or would it include matter?
If you believed in telepathy how would you explain it. Spend an evening contemplating how you would explain it scientifically.
Once you cross that line of believing in telepathy it opens strange doors. Then you start looking at science you always thought was abhorrent and review your opinions of consciousness in physics.
As I said. I feel sorry for people who have no reason to believe in telepathy, as it does hinder their belief system.
If you want quick statistical proofs I would look at a book called "Dream Telepathy". A series of well organized experiments with double blinds/locked doors/lab settings. The object was for a sender to open a sealed envelope and send the picture into a subjects dream. The results were staggering and defied 75000:1 odds.
I believe the best method is to just try to send thoughts yourself, it is not magic. Once you start getting any kind of eerie results step back and plan experiments with friends or family.
I am not asking anybody to believe in telepathy. I am asking people to keep an open mind long enough to prove it to themselves.
@ Red Devil,
Bible puncher I would say is inaccurate, because I abhor most religions. I think I might be more inclined towards a combination of Buddhism and the "law of attraction" parts of Hindu. In Hindu they If they want money they pray to they god of money. If they want love they pray to the god of love. We call that focus in western "law of attraction" circles.
Promoting my interests I would also claim inaccuracy. The topic warranted me demonstrating my past in dealings with PSI, to demonstrate how I arrived at my current beliefs. If people look at statistics and probabilities, they will discover that even though psychic phenomenon cannot be proven completely there is statistics which defy billion to one odds out there with probabilities telepathy is real.
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Rubbish. Look at the title of the thread, read the opening post.
When I was a kid, I sincerely tried all kinds of telepathic experiments. None of them ever worked.
I have since learned that there's no reliable evidence of telepathy of any kind anywhere, though I admit there may be some that I'm unaware of.
Can you please link me to some of the billion-to-one odds that you think prove that telepathy exists?
I have since learned that there's no reliable evidence of telepathy of any kind anywhere, though I admit there may be some that I'm unaware of.
Can you please link me to some of the billion-to-one odds that you think prove that telepathy exists?
@ james R,
I have found that although some are capable of perceiving thoughts from others with a receiver and sender, most "rookies" would achieve their best results influencing another's dreams from afar. I also believe this method is reliant upon the person waking up from that dream.
@ James R.
Interesting that you would consider probabilities. I was in contact with another James R. (someone you might know) years ago, and he was emphatic that he would not accept statistical probabilities as proof. Yes. I am on some woo-hoo list in the real James Randi office.
The Billion to one odds is based on millions of tests, and had to do with minds influencing Random Number generators. I am not sure I am providing the correct link here. Your computer needs JAVA to participate in the experiment.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/contents.html
in the above link I'd click on "clockface" or something and practice. It is mind attempting to influence machine. In this case a random number generator.
I cannot find much in the way of statistics now except this page here.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/summary/
Random number generators and computers do not normally go hand in hand, but a large amount of experimental data was tossed from Princeton as the random number generator was deemed flawed. A large amount of work went into this code to make sure the number is truly random (as close as possible).
These random number generator experiments proved so successful and have been studied off and on at various organizations for many years. They are now being used in something called the "global consciousness project" as they feel results of experiments are influenced at times of world trauma. I do not endorse this view as it could juts be a case of "looking for events" to match the stats.
However.....
I highly recommend "dream telepathy"
This was also a filmed documentary, however I have no idea where to get a copy nowadays.
http://www.espresearch.com/dreamtelepathy/
I also recommend Harold Sherman books like
thoughts through space
http://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-through-Space-Remarkable-Consciousness/dp/1571743146
This chronicles a Famous North Pole explorer on his journey away from radio range at times. The experiment was that everyday the explorer would send his thoughts of the day to a receiver in New York. Many well known dignitaries vouched for the experiment and participated.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-ESP-Work-You/dp/0449212025
also by Harold Sherman, and is the book that originally influenced me.
I maintain that the best chance of belief would be to do this sort of thing yourself. It is not that hard. Pick a person and spend an hour from 2am-3am sending a thought containing an action. If it doesn't work try it at least 5 times. I'd actually say do it until it works well.
I have found that although some are capable of perceiving thoughts from others with a receiver and sender, most "rookies" would achieve their best results influencing another's dreams from afar. I also believe this method is reliant upon the person waking up from that dream.
@ James R.
Interesting that you would consider probabilities. I was in contact with another James R. (someone you might know) years ago, and he was emphatic that he would not accept statistical probabilities as proof. Yes. I am on some woo-hoo list in the real James Randi office.
The Billion to one odds is based on millions of tests, and had to do with minds influencing Random Number generators. I am not sure I am providing the correct link here. Your computer needs JAVA to participate in the experiment.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/contents.html
in the above link I'd click on "clockface" or something and practice. It is mind attempting to influence machine. In this case a random number generator.
I cannot find much in the way of statistics now except this page here.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/summary/
Random number generators and computers do not normally go hand in hand, but a large amount of experimental data was tossed from Princeton as the random number generator was deemed flawed. A large amount of work went into this code to make sure the number is truly random (as close as possible).
These random number generator experiments proved so successful and have been studied off and on at various organizations for many years. They are now being used in something called the "global consciousness project" as they feel results of experiments are influenced at times of world trauma. I do not endorse this view as it could juts be a case of "looking for events" to match the stats.
However.....
I highly recommend "dream telepathy"
This was also a filmed documentary, however I have no idea where to get a copy nowadays.
http://www.espresearch.com/dreamtelepathy/
I also recommend Harold Sherman books like
thoughts through space
http://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-through-Space-Remarkable-Consciousness/dp/1571743146
This chronicles a Famous North Pole explorer on his journey away from radio range at times. The experiment was that everyday the explorer would send his thoughts of the day to a receiver in New York. Many well known dignitaries vouched for the experiment and participated.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-ESP-Work-You/dp/0449212025
also by Harold Sherman, and is the book that originally influenced me.
I maintain that the best chance of belief would be to do this sort of thing yourself. It is not that hard. Pick a person and spend an hour from 2am-3am sending a thought containing an action. If it doesn't work try it at least 5 times. I'd actually say do it until it works well.
We as in you and I, nothing to do with the OP.
It could have natural causes. I doubt it, but it's possible.
I accept that it is from natural causes, but we need to take that further, as to how could it be possible? What sort of phenomena is it, that the OP is discussing, disregarding the "god word", for his view of God seems more like a TV signal from and to each of us.
So WHAT is the method nature has used to allow telepathy?
kwhilborn:
The thing about statistics is that if you have data that has, say, a 1% chance of happening by chance, then it is always possible that the result is just that 1 in 100 statistical fluke and not "real". Obviously, if the statistics are 1 in 1 million, things may look more certain. But even then it depends on the sample size etc. If you test 1 million people for psychic powers, then on average 1 of those people will show test scores - purely by chance - that have only a 1 in 1 million chance of occurring.
Those experiments are interesting. However, looking at the statistics they are gathering, their results are very far from being 1 in a million. There's only a slight bias in the results right now, and that may well correct itself as more tests are done.
As I said, I think I investigated this possibility quite thoroughly when I was a kid. There's really no value in repeating it now.
The thing about statistics is that if you have data that has, say, a 1% chance of happening by chance, then it is always possible that the result is just that 1 in 100 statistical fluke and not "real". Obviously, if the statistics are 1 in 1 million, things may look more certain. But even then it depends on the sample size etc. If you test 1 million people for psychic powers, then on average 1 of those people will show test scores - purely by chance - that have only a 1 in 1 million chance of occurring.
Those experiments are interesting. However, looking at the statistics they are gathering, their results are very far from being 1 in a million. There's only a slight bias in the results right now, and that may well correct itself as more tests are done.
As I said, I think I investigated this possibility quite thoroughly when I was a kid. There's really no value in repeating it now.
@ James R,
No 1% test would ever impress me. I would need a repeatable 50% or above test. Right or wrong.
What if you made a hit with a hit probability of 0.413 chance. That in itself is insignificant. Let us then assume that you could make that hit 9 out of ten times on a consistent basis with zero chance of cheating. Each hit increases the likelihood that chance was not a consideration.
- What if you could keep this 90%+ hit rate going for a run into the hundreds or even thousands? Would that not increase the probabilities?
It could be argued that spending just a few hours trying to remotely influence someone might lead to life altering belief changes. The best investment is in yourself, however I see no real need for anyone to believe.
(besides; we wouldn't want sciforums turned into a woo-woo site.)
I have witnessed above average results first hand, and furthermore claim I can replicate the .413 chance hit being hit with 90%+ accuracy. I would need another organization to witness these tests, and obviously I had received a negative response from the other James R.
However I also use a method that has never been tried, and the "intuitives" I have designed can help people make decisions subconsciously. Previous to my work I believe the only other tool for retrieving ideas from the subconscious were items that relied on ideomotor reflexes such as pendulums, automatic writing, quija board, without relying on some sort of visualization method like scrying.
My method is simple. I hide an answer such as "yes" or "no" inside a subliminal picture. Our conscious mind cannot see the answer, however anybody with depth perception can read the answers subconsciously. The subliminal pictures I use are auto-stereo-grams. Those fad pictures from the 90's that you needed to blur your eyes to see. As long as you do not consciously focus on the answer, then your decision is subconscious. Repeating the process helps eliminate conscious choices based on presentation. i.e. someone might prefer the top answer when presented with 2 intuitives. We randomize and repeat the choices, and tally the results.
(I am the first person to use this method to my knowledge)
I apologize that the link I provided was unrelated to the Billion to one odds I was mentioning. I believe it was the author Dean Radin who originated Random Number Generation experiments and exceeded the odds I quoted.
It does not really matter...
I would love it if someone could make a statement like the following from Dean Radin without being ostricized on Sciforums, but...
Maybe spooky action at a distance really is spooky?
A lot of interesting telepathic research was done shortly after radio waves were popular, as the idea of a link between brains using a similar method did not seem like such a stretch.
No 1% test would ever impress me. I would need a repeatable 50% or above test. Right or wrong.
What if you made a hit with a hit probability of 0.413 chance. That in itself is insignificant. Let us then assume that you could make that hit 9 out of ten times on a consistent basis with zero chance of cheating. Each hit increases the likelihood that chance was not a consideration.
- What if you could keep this 90%+ hit rate going for a run into the hundreds or even thousands? Would that not increase the probabilities?
It could be argued that spending just a few hours trying to remotely influence someone might lead to life altering belief changes. The best investment is in yourself, however I see no real need for anyone to believe.
(besides; we wouldn't want sciforums turned into a woo-woo site.)
I have witnessed above average results first hand, and furthermore claim I can replicate the .413 chance hit being hit with 90%+ accuracy. I would need another organization to witness these tests, and obviously I had received a negative response from the other James R.
However I also use a method that has never been tried, and the "intuitives" I have designed can help people make decisions subconsciously. Previous to my work I believe the only other tool for retrieving ideas from the subconscious were items that relied on ideomotor reflexes such as pendulums, automatic writing, quija board, without relying on some sort of visualization method like scrying.
My method is simple. I hide an answer such as "yes" or "no" inside a subliminal picture. Our conscious mind cannot see the answer, however anybody with depth perception can read the answers subconsciously. The subliminal pictures I use are auto-stereo-grams. Those fad pictures from the 90's that you needed to blur your eyes to see. As long as you do not consciously focus on the answer, then your decision is subconscious. Repeating the process helps eliminate conscious choices based on presentation. i.e. someone might prefer the top answer when presented with 2 intuitives. We randomize and repeat the choices, and tally the results.
(I am the first person to use this method to my knowledge)
I apologize that the link I provided was unrelated to the Billion to one odds I was mentioning. I believe it was the author Dean Radin who originated Random Number Generation experiments and exceeded the odds I quoted.
It does not really matter...
I would love it if someone could make a statement like the following from Dean Radin without being ostricized on Sciforums, but...
Maybe spooky action at a distance really is spooky?
A lot of interesting telepathic research was done shortly after radio waves were popular, as the idea of a link between brains using a similar method did not seem like such a stretch.
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An atheist could explain the same as a theist might:
A mild hallucination.
(step away from the chalice.)
I accept that it is from natural causes, but we need to take that further, as to how could it be possible? What sort of phenomena is it, that the OP is discussing, disregarding the "god word", for his view of God seems more like a TV signal from and to each of us.
So WHAT is the method nature has used to allow telepathy?
We would first need to establish that telepathy really is happening. Then see if it diminishes with the inverse square of the distance. If not, then we would have to rule out anything electromagnetic, which means all the forms of radiation that we know about.
@ Aqueous,
They do not profess to believe in telepathy ( I do, they don't).
They are "pretending" that telepathy is real for the sake of argument, as was proposed for this discussion. Not that everyone here discussing it shares my belief.
@ spidergoat,
From personal experience (some may joke ), I have seen positive results in different countries as was my very first experience on the opening post. I'd think it has more to do with entanglement, but am open to any theory.
They do not profess to believe in telepathy ( I do, they don't).
They are "pretending" that telepathy is real for the sake of argument, as was proposed for this discussion. Not that everyone here discussing it shares my belief.
@ spidergoat,
From personal experience (some may joke ), I have seen positive results in different countries as was my very first experience on the opening post. I'd think it has more to do with entanglement, but am open to any theory.
You know that cannot be considered a valid test. Statistically, you would have to see at least some positive results unless you set up the experiment correctly.
EM radiation has been well documented so that is rather bizarre to even think that it is a form of EM radiation!
From my experience it might be a type "courier" mediated event. Like look into what is proposed in the experiment that you all have been asked to join into, it is specific link between KWhilborn and yourself. Specific delivery??, I don't say I know how it works, but I have experienced it.
Have a go, see if it works. I'm not sure about it so I didn't proceed with it. But why not give it a go?
@ spidergoat,
psi research is very widespread. Double blind tests have been conducted with sender/receiver in different countries. "Thoughts through space" was a book about a polar explorer who would send his daily events to a receiver in New York. Many people participated in this experiment, and vouched for its validity. The receiver would submit his results while the broadcaster was out of radio range for much of the story.
That is just one example of many. Distance has always been a consideration for PSI experiments.
psi research is very widespread. Double blind tests have been conducted with sender/receiver in different countries. "Thoughts through space" was a book about a polar explorer who would send his daily events to a receiver in New York. Many people participated in this experiment, and vouched for its validity. The receiver would submit his results while the broadcaster was out of radio range for much of the story.
That is just one example of many. Distance has always been a consideration for PSI experiments.