My first out of body experience

[Dywyddyr]

Rather than give a link to an entire document could you please quote the relevant part where it states that

Originally Posted by Alan McDougall
The soul is thought to be the same thing as the mind.

As far as I'm concerned the sentence

and may be synonymous with spirit, mind or self

is NOT the same thing as "thought to be". Didn't you notice the words "may be" in there? It's especially tendentious as it states it could also be the "self"? How may people regard themselves as a mind or a soul?

And also the part that states:

The mind or consciousness is said to hover around ones head as a quantum field that constantly downloads and refreshers the physical brain with new information

Thank you.

 

[Alan McDougall]

Rather than give a link to an entire document could you please quote the relevant part where it states that

As far as I'm concerned the sentence

is NOT the same thing as "thought to be". Didn't you notice the words "may be" in there? It's especially tendentious as it states it could also be the "self"? How may people regard themselves as a mind or a soul?

And also the part that states:

Thank you.

OK I apologize and promise to phrase my posts more carefully in future. But I have read "somewhere"? that the mind and soul are synonymous

 

[Dywyddyr]

OK I apologize and promise to phrase my posts more carefully in future. But I have read "somewhere"? that the mind and soul are synonymous

Apart from the odd "maverick" I think that suggestions that the mind is the soul would not be accepted.
The mind is fairly well recognised as existing (even if not understood) - and for which we have sciences (psychology, etc), and which no one, so far as I can tell, claims lives after death.
The soul however, is supposedly some metaphysical, all-but-immortal, nebulous construct for which we have zero evidence (unless/ until it's conflated with "mind").

 

[Stryder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)

Family member of yours Alan?

 

[Big Chiller]

That's what it seems to be apparently scientifically.... It can't really be fully explained just as the existence of all things around oneself can't be fully explained e.g. why do laws of physics exist?

Why not?

You've responded inadequately here, next time do yourself a favor and don't respond to prevent embarrasing yourself.

 

[Alan McDougall]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)

Family member of yours Alan?

No not my family I am Alan McDougall, and he is Ducan MacDougall

 

[Stryder]

No not my family I am Alan McDougall, and he is Ducan MacDougall

I only queried because it seemed that you were asking questions about a Soul and Duncan attempt to generate experiments to prove existence of one.

Was he weighing a soul in his experiments, I would say no, I would however suggest that in a live human being their is bioelectromagnetism that could effected how mass is registered while live.

As for an actual Soul, I'm pretty sure it's been stated it's nothing more than a Construct operating within the brain, much like children imagine they are a superhero or professionals adopt a profession. (In some respects you could call it a form of nonviolent Sociopathy.)

 

[S.A.M.]

As for an actual Soul, I'm pretty sure it's been stated it's nothing more than a Construct operating within the brain

Like Logic? Conscience? Thinking? Mathematics? Money? Time?

 

[Stryder]

Like Logic? Conscience? Thinking? Mathematics? Money? Time?

Yup, you missed "Religion", "Materialism", "patriotism" etc.

 

[(Q)]

I missed the physics class where they explained the mind. Could you give me a short recap of the basics? I'm really interested in the process

So, you claim to work in a lab but have never taken biology? Perhaps, the lab work is sweeping up afterward?

 

[S.A.M.]

So, you claim to work in a lab but have never taken biology? Perhaps, the lab work is sweeping up afterward?

Well since you've taken physics and biology of the mind, why don't you educate us ignoramuses?

Yup, you missed "Religion", "Materialism", "patriotism" etc.

Maybe you could join (Q) in explaining these "constructs" of the "mind", all these necessary illusions so to speak.

 

[(Q)]

You've responded inadequately here, next time do yourself a favor and don't respond to prevent embarrasing yourself.

I am so sorry to have aggravated you, please accept my humble apologies.

 

[(Q)]

Well since you've taken physics and biology of the mind, why don't you educate us ignoramuses?

Maybe you should have gone to school instead of reading the Quran, that way you wouldn't be such an ignoramus.

 

[S.A.M.]

Maybe you should have gone to school instead of reading the Quran, that way you wouldn't be such an ignoramus.

Does that mean you are unwilling to explain the physics of thinking for us? Shall we have to take you on faith?

 

[(Q)]

Does that mean you are unwilling to explain the physics of thinking for us? Shall we have to take you on faith?

No, you could go to school and learn something for a change.

I've taken the time to read your holy books, you should do the same.

 

[S.A.M.]

If you don't want to answer a question, why not just say so? Whats the point of starting something you are unwilling to finish?

How do you suppose an out of body experience would manifest itself physiologically?

By violating several physics laws. [image removed]

Why? What makes you suppose that it would require violating physical laws?

What are the physical laws governing consciousness?

Because that's what would be required for an out of body experience.



Doesn't matter, what's most important is that it can't leave your body and go traveling around.

Why? Aren't there any examples in physics of mind over matter?

Does energy have matter? Doesn't it obey the laws of physics? Can't it leave the body, travel around and return?

Don't we store it?



How do you know that?

A misunderstanding of physics on your part equates to speculation.



It seems we continue to confirm that you never read others posts. Violation of physical laws? Duh.

Make that criticism constructive and we'll both learn something.

I know for a fact you aren't interested in learning anything, Sam. That's why you embrace and hold irrational beliefs. I have learned why out of body experiences are pure bunk, but you have not and probably never will. [image removed]

I have no opinion on OOB experiences. I'm merely exploring the possibility that the explanation could be something very simple and self evident.

It is. Delusion. Very simple and quite evident.

And how does a delusion manifest itself physiologically?

Huh?

Well does it or doesn't it? People here seem very certain that something has to exist before it can be measured. And yet, aren't you the same guy who showed me a link how we can get something from nothing, according to physics?

Has anyone studied oob experiences with physiological measures? Change in body temperature, eeg, ecg, change in BMR anything like that?

Can it be induced?

Did you actually read it?



If a scientist understands that the claims of believers in OOBE are unsubstantiated because it violates physical laws, what would give them reason to pursue the claim?

Yeah, have you changed your mind about it?



Would have to be a very strange scientist indeed who could reach conclusions without any evidence at all.

Did you read it? Yes or no?



Ah, so you didn't read it.

I did, I'm just intrigued that someone who can find a "physical" explanation for getting something from nothing is so close minded at the idea that consciousness could be transmitted. After all, is there anyone here who has not sensed people watching them? Who has not felt the physical impact of another persons personality? We already know that we can maintain a sense of self and consciousness over many changes of the biochemistry of the body. While at its basic level they are all atoms carrying and emitting energy that is not sufficient to explain consciousness. We know this sense of self is not inviolate since there are things like temporary and permanent amnesia and coma when people can be altered by external trauma. Yet, that is the rare exception. In general, consciousness and the sense of self is quite fixed. How does physics explain that to you? Or don't you believe in these either?

That's like saying you're intrigued by someone who is closed minded about the idea of flying.



There is no evidence to back that up. Sorry.



Really? How?



Where did you get that from?



Yeah, but that's WITHIN the mind.



Sounds like a lot of nonsense.

The mind? Whats that? That stream of consciousness thingy which can only be detected by self reporting and other such methods? That mind? How does physics explain the mind?

That would be the brain, Sam.

Okay, how does physics explain the brain? Where do thoughts come from? How are they formed? What is the substance of thoughts? How do you distinguish between a thought and a delusion?

Are you trying to make a point or just want to refresh your high school daze? Am I supposed to be teaching you something that you don't already know?

I missed the physics class where they explained the mind. Could you give me a short recap of the basics? I'm really interested in the process

So, you claim to work in a lab but have never taken biology? Perhaps, the lab work is sweeping up afterward?

Well since you've taken physics and biology of the mind, why don't you educate us ignoramuses?



Maybe you could join (Q) in explaining these "constructs" of the "mind", all these necessary illusions so to speak.

Maybe you should have gone to school instead of reading the Quran, that way you wouldn't be such an ignoramus.

Does that mean you are unwilling to explain the physics of thinking for us? Shall we have to take you on faith?

No, you could go to school and learn something for a change.

I've taken the time to read your holy books, you should do the same.

 

[(Q)]

If you don't want to answer a question, why not just say so? Whats the point of starting something you are unwilling to finish?

Stop lying, Sam. I answered your question but I'm not about to go into something that would require you to attend classes for several years. You know that, too.

 

[S.A.M.]

Stop lying, Sam. I answered your question but I'm not about to go into something that would require you to attend classes for several years. You know that, too.

Why don't you start here and see how far you even attempted to have a rational outlook on the subject?

If a scientist understands that the claims of believers in OOBE are unsubstantiated because it violates physical laws, what would give them reason to pursue the claim?

Science 24 August 2007:
Vol. 317. no. 5841, p. 1048
DOI: 10.1126/science.1142175

Prev | Table of Contents | Next
Brevia
The Experimental Induction of Out-of-Body Experiences
H. Henrik Ehrsson

I report an illusion in which individuals experience that they are located outside their physical bodies and looking at their bodies from this perspective. This demonstrates that the experience of being localized within the physical body can be determined by the visual perspective in conjunction with correlated multisensory information from the body.

Wellcome Trust Centre for Neuroimaging, Institute of Neurology, 12 Queen Square, London WC1N 3BG, UK. Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska Institutet, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden. E-mail: Henrik.Ehrsson@ki.se

The full paper is available here: http://www.neuro.ki.se/ehrsson/pdfs/Ehrsson-Science-2007-with-SOM.pdf

For someone who scorns faith and preaches reason, you seem to singularly lack the desire or ability to defend your assertions with evidence.

 

[(Q)]

The full paper is available here: http://www.neuro.ki.se/ehrsson/pdfs/Ehrsson-Science-2007-with-SOM.pdf

For someone who scorns faith and preaches reason, you seem to singularly lack the desire or ability to defend your assertions with evidence.

You see, Sam, you completely ignore the fact that OBE's violate physical laws and present a paper based on testimonials.

 

[S.A.M.]

You see, Sam, you completely ignore the fact that OBE's violate physical laws and present a paper based on testimonials.

Clearly, my dear (Q), your assertions have been soundly trounced by the evidence that they can be induced in healthy volunteers.

Maybe you should volunteer for the experience. I think you would enjoy it.

"My first out of body experience by (Q)"