My beef with ETI

Reverse engineering alien craft, is not exactly the same as alien's exchanging technology. The technology exchanges may have taken place much later.
Remember there are dozens upon dozens of alien factions, how they work, would differ. From what I remember reading, there was an alien civilization we had contact with in 1950's or so, who refused to provide us technology. In fact, they also told us to stop dealing with the big-nose greys(a variant from the common greys) with whom the government had a deal of technology for humans and cows for their experiments.

Anyhow I probably will not be able to continue this discussion. As all mighty Porfity is banning me. So take down my e-mail again: crazzymikey@hotmail.com, and we'll continue this discussion over e-mail or on a forum with no dictatorship.
 
There is no such forum. In the end, the owner of a forum has absolute say in all matters.

:m: Peace.
 
There is no such forum. In the end, the owner of a forum has absolute say in all matters.
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Perhaps on this forum. In other forums I've participated in, the moderators and admin were honest, respectful and down-to-earth people.I have also ran 5 moderately sized(800 members)different forums in the past, and if you coud ask those people today, they would tell you, that I was more like a member than an admin. They had absolute say in matters. Anyway, if the admin and moderators here, want to feel like gods, I just have to tell you: you're totally deluding yourself. There is no dearth of forums online, and if you act like that towards people who keep your forum alive, they'll just go elsewhere. Much like I am going to go elsewhere, once I'm banned,
 
Its a shame if they ban you mikey, you was the least fanatical of all the people trying to prove alien existance, in fact i think your the only one that actually constantly argued and tried to prove it rather than just spouting views like others, you provided a discussion where others simply couldnt get around their 'im right your wrong' view, if theres a poll against banning you i shall vote if i still can.
 
Thanks a lot Lemming3k. I have said it time and time again, you are the only skeptic thus far, to have been sensible and wanting to engage the discussion - while the rest, prefer to ridicule or attack the matter.

So far, it seems like im staying :)
 
I consider you at worst the only non-fanatical believer on here, i may not agree with your views but 10 out of 10 for effort and i dont like to ridicule those who have different beliefs to me, i could be swayed into believing in god if there was good enough evidence for it. A lot of things i go through and consider to be rubbish i dont post my views on the forums, i have a life to lead that wouldnt change with ETI around, im not bothered if they have visited or not and will probably only believe when it is truely public, i'll question what i can for now and the rest is more unexplained than actual proof, some good points on both sides its interesting to just sit back sometimes, anyways good to know your staying, its nice to have at least 1 non-fanatic around.
 
Post deleted - Insulting another member.
 
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Hello Faulty:

To get back to your original message, first one in this thread,
I must say your points are well taken. ETI as presented in
the movies, popular books and whatnot sounds all too much
like campfire tales taken for a stretch.

I am intrigued however with the possibility (some would argue
for the necessity) of interstellar probes sent for purposes of
science and exploration. If this has any merit, I would argue
for extremely intelligent machines, immune to biological diseases
and hazards, extremely long lived or capable of repairing
themselves or at least one another, and obeying the laws of
physics, whatever those ultimately turn out to be.

This is the least extravagant model I can come up with
short of saying that no ET craft have ever visited Earth.

IF they ever did, I would expect they still do. WE don't
have 2% of the living things on Earth catalogued, for one
thing, and we were here all along.

It is this possibility that leads me to study the UFO phenomenon.

I catalog and map UFO sightings (the better ones I hope) in
the perhaps vain hope that some patterns or clues might emerge.
Even after filtering out mountains of junk sightings (lights in the
night, fireballs, obvious kooks and phonies) I have about 18,200
sightings mapped for all eras, worldwide:

http://www.larryhatch.net/MAPSMENU.html -and-
http://www.larryhatch.net/THEMEMAPS.html

Some statistical studies from the same *U* UFO Database
are on this menu:

http://www.larryhatch.net/STATMENU.html

The whole ball of wax is easily available from the main page:

http://www.larryhatch.net

Granted, my data must be full of easily explainable cases if
we only had the right information. I would gladly throw
half of these listings away, some 20 years work, if I only
knew which half to pitch! Then at least, the remainder
would be less crowded .. maybe lines and formations on
the UFO sightings maps would stand out better, and the
statistics carry more validity.

Alas, 98% of what the public sees is the crap that you
described, aliens mating with humans, commuting
between star systems ..


Best wishes - Larry Hatch
 
Larry, that's one hell of a piece of work. I'm impressed.

I must say that I find this topic very interesting, but apparently not interesting enough that I am moved to investigate any reports. Therefore, my skeptiscism about the presence of ETI in our solar system is motivated not because I don't believe eyewitness accounts or Crazymikey's alleged inside information (>400 "top brass officials"), but because of the unfeasibility of the stories that they claim.

Actually, to contradict myself, I am able to entertain the idea that evidence of ETI exists somewhere in our solar system. I think it would be something far more subtle than graffiti in our fields and swooping glowing things above our cities.

The bottom line is that I can offer no input other than my own reasons for not believing. I started this thread really to see if anyone would address those points for me, but these kinds of discussions usually end up going round in circles and can become quite heated. This one did too.
 
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I must say that I find this topic very interesting, but apparently not interesting enough that I am moved to investigate any reports. Therefore, my skeptiscism about the presence of ETI in our solar system is motivated not because I don't believe eyewitness accounts or Crazymikey's alleged inside information (>400 "top brass officials"), but because of the unfeasibility of the stories that they claim.
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Skepticism is about investigating. Please do not misuse the term. Your problem is called "denial" and as I've explained it before - rigidly established neural pathways due to a life-long conditioning. You could compare yourself to Proud_Muslim, if you want. He's had a life-long conditioning and brain-washing of Islamic preaching. Today, even if he's confronted with a case for the faults of Islam, he will just outrighly deny it, no matter how much substance there is to that case. I admit, you're not as extremist as Proud_Muslim, you are actually somewhat open to ETI, maybe even wish to believe, but the principles of your belief's are the same as PM's. It's nothing more than "denial" and it is completely natural :)
 
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One thing I don’t understand Larry, you have spent the last 20 years plotting UFO sightings and excellent job too, but you view ETI – human interaction as crap. If the UFO’s as you claim are probes then how does that explain the 1 – 2 mile in size craft seen over Phoenix, Arizona in March 1999? To build a craft that size for just probing space does not make logical sense.
:D
 
Alas, 98% of what the public sees is the crap that you
described, aliens mating with humans, commuting
between star systems ..
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It sounds that "98%" figure has come out of nowhere. It's better to say, that some of the public reports are crap.

When you say aliens mating with humans? - Do you mean Alien abductions? or just Aliens mating with humans?
When you say commuting between stars? Do you mean you do not believe Aliens are physically travelling between star systems? I have read that you think they are using some form of nanotechnology or Von Neuman probes?

Please elaborate.
 
interesting!!!

hi all of you who are possible believers, friends, and non-debunkers.

if mikey were to be banned, and perhaps maybe others who are tryng to provide pieces of the truth to an unwilling audience, i have a solution.

please leave me a message if you want to continue these discussions and conversations elsewhere , without IC and debunkery and lashing.

i respect all who are brave enough to bring the truth to the table for consideration.

---

im afraid all the cooks and phonies and IC and debunkers will make it hard to find evident patterns or clues within the mapped sightings, but it is still a great accomplishment and its always good to have solid facts, graphs, to shush the pessimists.

but i am almost certain in saying that Probing the area is NOT the ONLY reason for sending their ships/crafts/peoples here.

like someone said, why would a Huge ship (phx lights) be here? not to probe.

the truth is buried deep underneath a mountain (or should i say pyramid heh) of conspiracies and networks of secretive groups , each holding on to their own piece of the secret, for the life of them. the is so much on top of the truth that it almost renders the truth invisible, certainly hard-to-obtain.

thankfully we are in the information age, and we have the alot of information available to us. we no longer have to hide, or be afraid (at least not as scared) to talk about these subjects. our peoples are slowly accepting the possibility of other intelligent life.

this is putting abductions/sightings aside. whether or not these claims are true is not the real case. what matters is that people GET THE NEWS, ARE AWARE OF IT. thats what matters. so, in a sense, the Debunkers/Cooks/Fakers are contributing to the spreading of awareness, albeit in a bad, if not evil, way.

---

whats this thread about anyways ?
 
Hello all: The 98% figure is more or less out of the air, having read the literature,
in muliple languages I might add. http://www.larryhatch.net/USOURCE.html
I refer to the literature the PUBLIC is exposed to, much of which didn't make that
long list above.

By "crap" I mean aliens mating with humans ala' Antonio Villas Boas (LOL!),
abductions by the 100s of thousands or millions when relatively few would
do (in my particular model), putting on light shows when stealth makes
more sense, friendly space-brothers come to enlighten us to a new
'spirituality', and/or War of the Worlds type takeover attempts right out
of the old drive in movies.

As for commuting, that's how some people seem to visualize the visitations.
I prefer a scenario where automated probes propagate, slowly over great
distances, reporting back to their point of origin. The information gained
would go back at light speed presumably, the craft moving at sub-luminal
speeds. Again this is all according to my particular model.

"Beings" or robots would be superintelligent if only slightly advanced over
our technology, electronic and biological. They may well be indistinguishable
from living creatures, adding to the confusion. IF this has merit, nobody
would call them "natural", as a human would be if he went to Mars today.

I would expect a long, deep survey of Earth. From time to time a craft
might get seen and reported in spite of precautions. I would expect
stealth for the same reasons that scientists studying baboons in the wild
try to stay out of sight. They do not march into camp and try to improve
the simian life-style, instilling a new sense of 'cosmic awareness' and
spirituality. In short, our scientists are not air-heads, and I expect no
less from alien probes if such there be.

I hope this explains my take on things. I make no claims to knowing
the facts of the matter, but prefer the likelier bets seldom seen in the
tabloid press and similar.

Best wishes - Larry

PS: Please see the very first posting on this thread. That's what
caught my attention. -LH
 
larryhat said:
Hello all: The 98% figure is more or less out of the air, having read the literature,
in muliple languages I might add. http://www.larryhatch.net/USOURCE.html
I refer to the literature the PUBLIC is exposed to, much of which didn't make that long list above.
Click to expand...

Yes, but please be careful. It sounded like you were saying 98% of the public reports of UFO and ETI phenomena to be "crap"

By "crap" I mean aliens mating with humans ala' Antonio Villas Boas (LOL!),
abductions by the 100s of thousands or millions when relatively few would
do (in my particular model), putting on light shows when stealth makes
more sense, friendly space-brothers come to enlighten us to a new
'spirituality', and/or War of the Worlds type takeover attempts right out
of the old drive in movies.
Click to expand...

I think you should realize that there are millions of UFO abduction accounts. This outnumbers the UFO accounts you have collected over two decades. Hence, please apply the same objective analysis, you have used on UFO's, to abductions too. It doesn't make logical sense to me, that you would take one aspect seriously, and the other you would just discard, which is generally synonymous with UFO. I was doing the same 5 months ago, and I realized how I illogical I was being.

As for commuting, that's how some people seem to visualize the visitations.
I prefer a scenario where automated probes propagate, slowly over great
distances, reporting back to their point of origin. The information gained
would go back at light speed presumably, the craft moving at sub-luminal
speeds. Again this is all according to my particular model.
Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with your model. However, the facts, as well as your own data, does not support your model. If they were indeed alien probes, then why do you have hundreds of thousands of sightings of these large craft?
In addition, I am sure you aware, that Alien visitation has been ongoing for thousands if not millions of years. Surely, they would have enough data by now.

"Beings" or robots would be superintelligent if only slightly advanced over
our technology, electronic and biological. They may well be indistinguishable
from living creatures, adding to the confusion. IF this has merit, nobody
would call them "natural", as a human would be if he went to Mars today.

I would expect a long, deep survey of Earth. From time to time a craft
might get seen and reported in spite of precautions. I would expect
stealth for the same reasons that scientists studying baboons in the wild
try to stay out of sight. They do not march into camp and try to improve
the simian life-style, instilling a new sense of 'cosmic awareness' and
spirituality. In short, our scientists are not air-heads, and I expect no
less from alien probes if such there be.
Click to expand...

I hope you don't mind, I'd like to introduce you to some alternate models.

Visitation at sub-luminal velocity:

If I was an alien civilization. I would determine which regions of space may support life. I would then send a probe or a signal to that region. If there is life there, I would send an manned team to further investigate. If I was 400 light years away, and I sent the probe at 50% the speed of light, than in 2040 years I should recieve the data from the probe. I could then dispatch a manned team at 50% the speed of light, in cryo-sleep, which arould arrive in 2000 years.

If we assume we have had Alien visitation 40,000 years ago. It would take an alien species from 400 light years 4040 years to both probe our region of space and to visit us. Once they arrive here, they would have ample time to establish their colonies in our solar system and interact with primitive life of those planets.

Worldship

The best popular example of this would be, The Star Ship Enterprize. Imagine multiple generations of an alien civilization living on a world-sized ship, travelling across space at 10%C the speed of light. In fact, even we are moving across space, at around 1.3 million mph. So just imagine a ship the size of the moon exploring space. At 10%C they could cross 50 light years in 500 year intervals. Eventually discovering other civilizations.

Von Neuman Machines:

Von Neuman machines travelling across space across galaxies for millions of years could colonize galaxies, by manufacturing factories to manufacture robots or even clones of the original alien civilization. In other words, leading to indirect contact with the host civilization.

Superluminal velocity:

Of course, this is the most ideal form of interstellar travel. Travelling at 100 or 1000+ times the speed of light. Civilizations from as far as 4000 light years could arrive here in 40 or 4 years and less.

All we know, is relativity tells us, we cant. I've yet to see any solid proof that we can't however.

In addition to that: we know for a fact that spacetime travels much faster than the speed of light. Therefore, if we were to accelerate a mass in a non-linear field, it could theoretically travel many times faster than the speed of light. It would not be the mass that is travelling, but the field.

We know that additional momentum energy causes relativistic mass, and mass has gravitational energy. In other words, there is a link between momentum energy, relativistic mass and gravitational energy.

- More momentum energy - more relativistic mass - more gravitational energy

We know by controlling one of these variables, relativistic mass is affected. In this case, that would be momentum energy. However, logically, gravity should also control relativistic mass.

Therefore it is possible to accelerate many times the speed of light, simply by the control of gravity.

The other way is by energy in the order of planks constant, which would warp spacetime. This is not within our capability, but it would foolish to assume, that it is not within the capability of alien civilizations, possibly millions of years in advance of us.

Therefore:

Considering how young we are in the universe.
Considering how vast this universe is
Considering how old this universe is
Considering how abundant life should be in this universe
Consider all of the above forms of instellar travel

Alien visitation is inevitable, and that is exactly what is happening, and it supports all of the facts.
 
hello Crazy Mikey:

Yes, I have considered all the things you mention at one time or another.
My pet model is just that, my personal take on what seems most likely
given physical constraints as now understood, or at least theorized,
having studied physics for years, plus thousands of UFO sightings which
I catalogued and mapped.

Offhand, I see no need for millions of abductions. A relative handful
would do if indeed its specimens they are after. I doubt aliens want
to "take over" in the usual military sense. We would have known all
about it, long long ago.

I am intrigued by the possibility that _some_ UFO sightings are indeed
anomalous, that _possibly_ this planet and most everything on it is
being observed by highly advanced devices and whatnot.

One good test of the various hypotheses is to ask yourself:
What will WE be doing in say 1000 years? Will we freeze ourselves
in all-too-risky machines that _might_ last 1000s of years, hoping
to wake up in a paradise (and not a hell hole) .. Or, will we send
highly intelligent machines to do the dirty work?

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch
 
Skepticism is about investigating. Please do not misuse the term.
Click to expand...

Crazymikey, skepticism is a frame of mind.

Your problem is called "denial" and as I've explained it before - rigidly established neural pathways due to a life-long conditioning. You could compare yourself to Proud_Muslim, if you want. He's had a life-long conditioning and brain-washing of Islamic preaching. Today, even if he's confronted with a case for the faults of Islam, he will just outrighly deny it, no matter how much substance there is to that case. I admit, you're not as extremist as Proud_Muslim, you are actually somewhat open to ETI, maybe even wish to believe, but the principles of your belief's are the same as PM's.
Click to expand...

It's enough that you already feign open-mindedness and expertise in physics and maths. Don't try to convince me you're a neurobiologist and a psychologist too. All you know about me is through what I type on my keyboard. Therefore I find your application of your pop-psychology to me ridiculous and mildly offensive. Please don't do it again.
 
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