My beef with ETI

[Faulty]

I know that there are already 'evidence of ETI' threads, but I thought I'd try and begin this opposite thread, outlining why I find the widely-reported ETI visitations difficult to accept. So here goes...

Interstellar travel: I know this is being argued round and round even now, but I shall say it here anyway: I do not believe that the vacuum energy will ever be exploited as a power source, and I am very skeptical of the belief that gravity and inertia will one day be manipulated. However, I don't deny that interstellar is possible.

Anthropomorphic aliens: The image of the classic, X-Files style 'Grey' alien makes me laugh. There are even meant to be aliens indistinguishable from humans! Look at the huge diversity of body shapes that nature has created on Earth. Now imagine a creature which evolved around a different star, and with which we share no common ancestor. Is the result a 'Grey', or another person? I understand the concept of convergent evolution, but these things even have eyes, noses and mouths in exactly the same configuration as us. This takes me onto my next point...

Alien motives: I'm aware that there's already a thread specifically on this subject, but I thought I'd include it here anyway. It seems that the explanation given for many abductions is one of genetic research and hybridisation. We are led to believe that of the myriad amino acids available, the hereditary material of these aliens is based on the exact same four as our own, and that we are somehow compatible for cross breeding experiments.
The purported aliens travel God-knows-how-many lightyears to perform aerobatics in our skies.
To preserve their secrecy, when they abduct people they wipe their memories but leave scars and burns. These memories arise later during hypnosis and the world learns the truth. Haven't they heard of general anaesthetic?

I am interested to hear your views on these points (although I think people may have to just agree to differ on the likelihood of harnessing gravity and the vacuum energy).

 

[phlogistician]

I agree with your reservations completely.

Firstly, travel. For whatever reasons ETs supposedly come here, exploration, abduction, DNA samples, breeding, body parts, whatever, they will need to return these items home, for them to be of use to their own society.

This has some interesting implications. Let's assume that aliens can travel at near light speeds, or create wormholes. Now the equipment to create the latter requires a lot of power (recent studies show immense amounts, and thus make them near impossible to create). That said, an alien craft sent through a wormhole wouldn't be able to create a wormhole to get home, as it wouldn't be able to carry the equipment. So scheduled wormholes would have to created for their return path. Commuter ETs?

Unless we are saying that ETs can create wormholes to get home from equipment inside their craft, ... now that is a real stretch. Of course, we don't see the massively energetic events surrounding a wormhole opening and closing, in ANY of the all sky survey data, which looks in X-Rays (which are of course associated with high energy events) and Gamma Ray bursts are few and far between, and randomly distributed in space, not coming from a distinct source.

Or somehow ETs craft can travel at near light speeds using internal propulsion. Energy is a major consideration again. I can hear the Zero Point advocates clearing their throats already. Well, measuring the miniscule Casimir effect on some metalplates is a far cry from accelerating a space craft to a significant proportion of c! Again, if this is the case, a return path is needed. So speculative research could take decades to come to fruition assuming the ETs are local, within a modest number of light years, (but if this is the case, how come SETI hasn't picked up any transmissions (I know, they are so advanced they don't use radio anymore, and didn't think to keep broadcasting a radio beacon in case _anybody_ out there was still using it)).

Why human DNA would be of any use to them, if they have a different genesis is anybodies guess. Like you said, they could use different markers, not GATC, they might use more markers. For a race so advnaced with their physics, it's hard to imagine why their biology could possibly need anything from humans, wouldn't they have advanced gene therapy, DNA manipulation, cloning, etc, all sewn up too? Energy can't be an issue, considering the propulsion they'd need.

These asynchronous advances are puzzling.

 

[crazymikey]

I know that there are already 'evidence of ETI' threads, but I thought I'd try and begin this opposite thread, outlining why I find the widely-reported ETI visitations difficult to accept. So here goes...

I do not mind at all. At least this will give the skeptics a venue to make their arguments and objections in a systematic matter, and encourage discussion. I have no quibbles in addressing skeptical arguments.

Interstellar travel: I know this is being argued round and round even now, but I shall say it here anyway: I do not believe that the vacuum energy will ever be exploited as a power source, and I am very skeptical of the belief that gravity and inertia will one day be manipulated. However, I don't deny that interstellar is possible.

Gravity/inertia manipulation and vacuum energy is already being demonstrated, and is scientificially solidified. I have provided you all the necessary evidence.

If you do not deny interstellar travel is possible, then why do you deny the possibility of ETI visitation?

Anthropomorphic aliens: The image of the classic, X-Files style 'Grey' alien makes me laugh. There are even meant to be aliens indistinguishable from humans! Look at the huge diversity of body shapes that nature has created on Earth. Now imagine a creature which evolved around a different star, and with which we share no common ancestor. Is the result a 'Grey', or another person? I understand the concept of convergent evolution, but these things even have eyes, noses and mouths in exactly the same configuration as us. This takes me onto my next point...

I personally think this objection is quite naive. The grey alien form infact predates X files by decades; it's not the grey alien that has been influenced by X files - it's X files that has been influenced by the grey alien. In fact the earliest records of grey alien's date from many thousands of years ago. Please consult my evidence for visual evidence from past.

The hominoid bi-pedal form maybe a common design of intelligent life. In fact makes effiency sense, that evolution would have a bias to certain designs.
In fact the 2 eyes, nose, mouth, teeth, 2 legs, 2 arms, sexual organs, and design is very common even amongst our own animals. In fact there are a multitide of aliens species been reported; the greys's are just the most common. Greys have some similarities with humans, but there also major differences: They are extremely frail, grey rubbery skinned, slits for mouth, 4-5 feet tall, hairless, different face structure and have insectoid eyes. There are actually a multitide of grey species; tall greys(7 feet) and big nose greys.
The Nordics and Plaeadians in fact look like human gods; blonde hair, blue almond eyes, perfect features, perfect muscular bodies. While the reptillians are bi-polar opposites, as they have descended from reptiles - some even have snake like features. I have read about many other forms of aliens too, but I do not think they are too trustworthy as a source.

Secondly, you can consider the possibility, that human DNA has been engineered by these alien factions and/or we have interbreeded with them, which is not uncommon in ancient mythology, which could also explain, why we have similar form.

According to the disclosure project there around 58 species visisting Earth. Greys are just one of many. Some alien factions look similar, they could even walk amongst us, and not be noticed. While some are diametrically opposite.

Alien motives: I'm aware that there's already a thread specifically on this subject, but I thought I'd include it here anyway. It seems that the explanation given for many abductions is one of genetic research and hybridisation. We are led to believe that of the myriad amino acids available, the hereditary material of these aliens is based on the exact same four as our own, and that we are somehow compatible for cross breeding experiments.
Alien motives: I'm aware that there's already a thread specifically on this subject, but I thought I'd include it here anyway. It seems that the explanation given for many abductions is one of genetic research and hybridisation. We are led to believe that of the myriad amino acids available, the hereditary material of these aliens is based on the exact same four as our own, and that we are somehow compatible for cross breeding experiments.
The purported aliens travel God-knows-how-many lightyears to perform aerobatics in our skies.

Our DNA may well be of some use to them, or compatible with them. In fact, the DNA connection between cows and humans is very similar, and it is no surprise, that they are also abducting and mutilating cows. Their intentions for these abductions are best known to them. It could be for genetic research, hybrids, biological needs, it may also be, because theygenuinely are trying to help us, by enhancing our intellectual and/or physical capacities. Genetic engineering of human genone may have been ongoing for a millenium - it would explain the so called "missing links"

Do you really think they are preserving secrecy? In fact it seems like they are giving us hints, and clues, of their existence, by not completely wiping the memories of their abductees, and leaving marks, and deliberately skirting across our skies. I am sure they're not retarded that they would allow huge motherships the size of football fields be seen by mass populations whilst wanting to be secret. Yet at the same time they are being cautious, by not publically appearing before us, as this would create mass hysteria and shatter societal, scientific and religious paradigms. It's already started, with so many cults appearing, warning people of the fallen angels.

 

[Faulty]

Gravity, inertia, and vacuum energy have been scientifically verified. This I agree with. I do not agree, however, that they can be usefully manipulated. "Necessary evidence" for me will exist when peer-reviewed experiments can be consistently repeated, and when other explanations have been ruled out. If you have posted such references I apologise, and ask if you could repost them here.

I recognise the possibility of interstellar travel, but maintain that it will be a slow process. More a gradual diffusion through the galaxy than like regular trips to the frontier and back.

I'm aware that the X-Files didn't begin the convention - that wasn't my point. My point was that I wouldn't expect billions of years of unrelated evolution to produce a creature who differs from us only in skin colour and bodily proportions. The reptilian aliens, while slightly less anthropomorphic, are still remarkably Earth-centric.
Like I said, I understand the concept of evolutionary convergence in the broader features, but the fine detail of our forms is dictated by chance and by our genetic heritage. If our evolution has been alien-directed, at what point do you suppose this tampering began, given that (fossil record permitting) we can map a sketchy ancestral path through apes to the earliest mammals.

As for sexual organs, sex offers evolutionary advantages in terms of shuffling hereditary material and promoting adaptations in the subsequent generation. As such, we might well expect aliens to use sex for reproduction. But that's not to say that we could recognise their sexual organs even if they were external and staring us in the face (pleasant image).

Compared to our likely genetic relationship with an alien from another star, cows and humans are practically twin siblings. Alien hereditary material might not even use the same chemistry as our DNA, let alone be based on the same structural system. Hybridisation of two species from different solar systems is a fantasy, and is less likely to produce viable offspring than is my mating with a tulip.

What missing links are you refering to? ET can surely not be invoked to explain every absence in the fossil record.

Concerning the helpful hints and clues they provide about their existence, I cannot believe that such an ancient and advanced civilisation can think of no better way to gently introduce themselves than by abducting a select few individuals and subjecting them to terrifying ordeals (I am trying to avoid the anal probing cliche).

 

[crazymikey]

Gravity, inertia, and vacuum energy have been scientifically verified. This I agree with. I do not agree, however, that they can be usefully manipulated. "Necessary evidence" for me will exist when peer-reviewed experiments can be consistently repeated, and when other explanations have been ruled out. If you have posted such references I apologise, and ask if you could repost them here.

You can read scientific papers on ZPE, electrogravitcs and anti gravity online. Not only are these sciences usable, they are being used. Anti-gravity and ZPE research has been ongoing for decades from reverse engineered ETI technology.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0209/0209051.pdf
http://www.enterprisemission.com/anti-grav.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/on/GEAR2000/2depalma.html
http://www.padrak.com/ine/TTB_EGP.html
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews.../story61826.asp
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28473
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/TECH/09...ech.black.world
http://www.zpower.net/zpe.htm
http://www.zpenergy.com/
http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/Bailey/Electrogravitics systems

I recognise the possibility of interstellar travel, but maintain that it will be a slow process. More a gradual diffusion through the galaxy than like regular trips to the frontier and back.

I know that interstellar travel can be fast and cheap. However, if you believe this, therefore it means, that ETI visitation is definitely possible. In 1 million years, using anti-matter technology, an ETI species could explore the entire galaxy.

One galaxy as per SETI, could contain over 1 million intelligent species.

So why do you object that ETI could well be visiting us, when it is scientifically feasible for them to exist, and to get here, including mountains upon mountains of evidence to support them being here.

I'm aware that the X-Files didn't begin the convention - that wasn't my point. My point was that I wouldn't expect billions of years of unrelated evolution to produce a creature who differs from us only in skin colour and bodily proportions. The reptilian aliens, while slightly less anthropomorphic, are still remarkably Earth-centric.
Like I said, I understand the concept of evolutionary convergence in the broader features, but the fine detail of our forms is dictated by chance and by our genetic heritage. If our evolution has been alien-directed, at what point do you suppose this tampering began, given that (fossil record permitting) we can map a sketchy ancestral path through apes to the earliest mammals.

Evolution itself may not be completely by chance - rather unblind chance. It is mathmatically certain that there could be many hominoid type aliens. It is also mathmatically certain there could be many non hominoid type aliens.
The aliens visiting us are variations of these two groups. Greys are not the only alien species - they're one of many - billions in fact.

As for sexual organs, sex offers evolutionary advantages in terms of shuffling hereditary material and promoting adaptations in the subsequent generation. As such, we might well expect aliens to use sex for reproduction. But that's not to say that we could recognise their sexual organs even if they were external and staring us in the face (pleasant image).

That may well be. That is why I recommend you don't shake hands with them

Compared to our likely genetic relationship with an alien from another star, cows and humans are practically twin siblings. Alien hereditary material might not even use the same chemistry as our DNA, let alone be based on the same structural system. Hybridisation of two species from different solar systems is a fantasy, and is less likely to produce viable offspring than is my mating with a tulip.

We don't know that however. Perhaps they can utilize any DNA samples, and make use of it.

Concerning the helpful hints and clues they provide about their existence, I cannot believe that such an ancient and advanced civilisation can think of no better way to gently introduce themselves than by abducting a select few individuals and subjecting them to terrifying ordeals (I am trying to avoid the anal probing cliche).

Who knows what system of logic they are using. It does not mean they do not exist, if they are doing things, we might consider illogical, or just cannot understand. Why they are doing what they are doing, we can speculate on.

All I know is this: ETI exists, they are visiting us, and abducting us and the government are in contact with them. I know nothing more about them.

 

[phlogistician]

Yet at the same time they are being cautious, by not publically appearing before us, as this would create mass hysteria and shatter societal, scientific and religious paradigms.

Au contraire old fruit. If ETs have been coming here for thousands of years as some have claimed, they would be the basis for religions, literally be living gods, control the religions that worship then, and therefore the populace.

They would have the power to control scientific development, stifle that which didn't suit their needs, and harvest as many willing human sacrifices as they needed.

With their level of technology, and the apparent ability to visit so frequently, they'd be able to completely control the earth, and therefore, public appearances would actually help, as they would be able to demonstrate their superiority and god like status.

 

[FieryIce]

phlogistician
If ETs have been coming here for thousands of years as some have claimed, they would be the basis for religions, literally be living gods, control the religions that worship then, and therefore the populace.
Yes

They would have the power to control scientific development, stifle that which didn't suit their needs, and harvest as many willing human sacrifices as they needed.
Yes

With their level of technology, and the apparent ability to visit so frequently, they'd be able to completely control the earth, and therefore, public appearances would actually help, as they would be able to demonstrate their superiority and god like status.
No

You forgot, the ones doing these things are the Losers, they are stuck here on Prison Planet Earth, thus they would want to hide so to manipulate and control from behind the scenes. They would have to work with the technology they had at the time they were forced to earth and the resources here. Resources such as humans and augmenting human technology.

 

[crazymikey]

Au contraire old fruit. If ETs have been coming here for thousands of years as some have claimed, they would be the basis for religions, literally be living gods, control the religions that worship then, and therefore the populace.

They would have the power to control scientific development, stifle that which didn't suit their needs, and harvest as many willing human sacrifices as they needed.

With their level of technology, and the apparent ability to visit so frequently, they'd be able to completely control the earth, and therefore, public appearances would actually help, as they would be able to demonstrate their superiority and god like status.

What if they don't want this? And how do you know, they already don't control us?

Think about it old fruit; if there is an entire community of galactic civilizations, then should there not be any infrastructure in place to regulate and monitor these galactic civilizations. One such regulation being non-intervention in developing worlds.

How do you know what ET policies are. It does not mean they do not exist, simply because you don't know what motivates them to do what they do.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

You may want to read the bible Mikey, you will find the rest of your answers in it.

Just a recommendation though.

 

[crazymikey]

Fallen angels, right?

 

[phlogistician]

One such regulation being non-intervention in developing worlds.

How do you know what ET policies are. It does not mean they do not exist, simply because you don't know what motivates them to do what they do.

I don't know what their policies are. I merely offered one policy option.

Seems though you take the option that they must adopt a policy of non-intervention, because we don't see them overtly. Well, if they are here, and all your 'evidence' is correct, they are doing a really crap job of hiding themselves. So they are neither overt, nor covert.

So, no, I don't understand their motives. Is it a case of 'ETs move in mysterious ways' and we are just to have faith, and not question?

 

[phlogistician]

phlogistician
You forgot, the ones doing these things are the Losers, they are stuck here on Prison Planet Earth, thus they would want to hide so to manipulate and control from behind the scenes. They would have to work with the technology they had at the time they were forced to earth and the resources here. Resources such as humans and augmenting human technology.

Oh, how convenient. I guess this explains why we don't see the energetic effects from Wormholes being created and destroyed, because all that happened before we had the technology to detect it?

Except, if one race can conquer the physics required to travel these distances, why can't more? Why haven't other races helped out the 'Losers' and got them off this low tech rock?

Do all the other 57 varieties conspire against the 'Losers'?

You are starting to sound like bad science fiction. Not only do you know that ETs are here, you know all of their history too! Do you channel them or something?

 

[crazymikey]

Well, I am sure, when they are disclosed, you can ask them yourself Simply because they do things, you do not understand, does not mean they don't exist. I don't understand the ways of Chinese people, doesn't mean they don't exist

Non intervention policy, simply means, they cannot significantly impact our growth to a certain stage. However as we are now a space-faring civilization, it is within ETI interests to engage us. Why they are abducting humans, is best known to them, but it could be simply to enhance human genetics and intelligence to make them fit for induction into the galactic community.

So they are being cautious of not upsetting our societal systems, yet at the same time, they are actively making us aware of their existence, so they can disclose themselves later. So I would not say that they're doing a crap job.

 

[phlogistician]

So they are being cautious of not upsetting our societal systems, yet at the same time, they are actively making us aware of their existence, so they can disclose themselves later. So I would not say that they're doing a crap job.

Amazing. Like I said, they could have controlled every aspect of their lives, and not had to worry about disclosure, but, for some reason, chose to adopt a path which fits right in with a conspiracy theory! How lucky is that!

 

[craterchains (Norval]

Phlogi;
You may want to do some deep research on a project called Crystal Face for detection and tracking of some UFO’s entering our atmosphere. FieryIce spearheaded that research a couple years ago and discovered some very interesting information.

Not one race against all others, but ones from all races being against their government and lost that insurrection. Considering what our history and legends tell us, I am very glad that insurrection failed.

 

[FieryIce]

Funny you should mention wormholes, Phlogger, because NASA had arranged for ~450 scientists to converge on Key West, Florida in our resent past to examine odd cloud formations……LOL

What would helping the Losers of a war make the Helpers? Allies? Then, what would these Allies to the Losers be to us humans?

No I do not channel the Losers or something. At the present time, I wouldn’t give the Losers even the time of day.

 

[Nebuchadnezzaar]

just want to say that i saw a UFO yesterday, looked pretty cool, they are real!

 

[FieryIce]

CrazyMikey, isn’t that a contradiction?
Non intervention policy…. to make them fit for induction into the galactic community.

Isn’t that intervention?

 

[crazymikey]

It sounds like one Fiery, but it's not: non intervention until the civilization has reached the space-age. As thereof, we have to abide by regulations of the galactic community.

 

[crazymikey]

Amazing. Like I said, they could have controlled every aspect of their lives, and not had to worry about disclosure, but, for some reason, chose to adopt a path which fits right in with a conspiracy theory! How lucky is that!

You mean our lives? What makes you think they want to control us, or even, if they have control over us for quite some time? As I said, because we are now a space-faring civilization, contact with other ETI is inevitable. So they have to disclose themselves eventually, and they are doing this, gradually, but surely.

The consipiracy theory is not because of them - but the actions of the government. Which I think is ready to come clean, or at least hope so, but it will be held accountable for witholding advanced technology, and contact with ETI, and worst of all, it's assassinations and terrorism against it's own citizens, in keeping the secret.