mormons?

Be honest with yourself... What's not acceptable to you is the truth, as revealed in/by the systematic decontruction of the myths you've held to.

I think that the most incriminating evidence against Joseph Smith, is that the Book of Mormon, a preported 4th Century document, has the very same 17th Century KJV Hebrew to English translation errors. its a miracle!!!

its a miracle, I tell you!!!

how else would you explain it? because plagiarism would be unheard of by a prophet, wouldn't it?
 
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1004.htm -- there is translation for isa 4:5 -- Khoopah, it is actually canopy noob.

wish you would research half the BS you read WBY.

Nisus, I wish you would take your own advise about researching stuff you want to prove "true", the parts JS used in the BoM, shows he plagiarized the KJV, too bad you're not honest enough to admit it, (even to yourself?)
http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/isabm2.html
Part 2: KJV Italics and the BM Isaiah
(updated 8/25/98)
A peculiarity of the KJV is the use of italics to mark words which do not have exact correspondences in the original biblical languages. The KJV was not the first to use italicized words in this way. Sebastian Muenster's Latin translation (1534-35), the French Bible of Olivétan (1535), the Great Bible of Cloverdale (1539), and the Geneva Bible (1557-60) used italics thus. The original KJV (1611) was printed in black-letter (gothic) with the "added" words printed in small roman type. In 1612 an edition of the KJV used italics for these words, and this became part of all standard editions of the KJV from that time.6 Many of the variants in the BM Isaiah over against the KJV occur precisely at these words and is a transparent indication that the KJV is the source of the BM Isaiah text.7
Before considering specifically how the BM varies at italicized words, we should note that circumstantial evidence makes it reasonably clear that Joseph Smith knew, if not with linguistic precision, the basic significance of the italics in the KJV when working on the BM. Some Bible reference works of Smith's time explained the reason for italics. The Holy Bible According to the Authorized Version with Notes, by George D'Oyly and Richard Mant (New York, 1818), for example, states:
The unlearned reader may find it useful to be informed, that, wherever words occur in the text of the English Bible, printed in Italic character, he is to understand that these words have none corresponding to them in the original Hebrew or Greek text, but that the sense is implied; and that the words are added in the English to complete or make clearer the sense.8

Footnotes
7. Even a tradition-oriented scholar such as Tvedtnes (The Isaiah Variants, 106-111) recognizes that changes were made at the italicized words. According to Brent Metcalfe (private communication), Royal Skousen has touted papers by his students William Calhoun and Magaret Robbins (for English 495R at BYU) as showing that Smith did not react to the italics or at least did so unsystematically. Upon inspection, these papers show a lack rigor and detail and are otherwise unconvincing.
8. D'Oyly and Mant, The Holy Bible According to the Authorized Version with Notes, Explanatory and Practical, 2 vols. (New York: T. and J. Swords, 1818-1820), vol. 1, the page before the "Introduction to the Old Testament."
 
WBY is a noob

I must have gotten under your thin mormonskin, ouch!!!

I like this definition:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=noob
2. noob
A noob or n00b is someone that lacks intellegance or common sense, most people think that noob is a word used only in the online gaming world, but in reality it is becoming an ever popular word with teenage society.
a noob could be simply a level 100 running round shouting ''WTF DO I GO!?'' or someone calling someone else a noob and then getting hit with a brick, anyone can call anyone a noob, but normally they are noobs themselves
I find comfort in the fact that since you can't out-argue, out-think or out-logic me, you have resorted to name-calling, shows your stripes, so just grow up
 
:chuckles:

What a noob!
I'm glad you can take a joke, but on a more serious side, when confronted with 2 or 3 diff truth claims, how do you go about judging them? what criteria do you use?

have you ever studied islam? would you consider it a valid path to heaven, if not why not?

what do you think about atheism? in your mind, is there any possibility that it is a correct worldview, if not, why not?

do you understand the root causes of why most mainstream catholic/protestant/Christian churches do not consider LDS christian? do you feel any points could be valid? or would be if such & such could be proven? or never, ever, never?
 
-- there is translation for isa 4:5 -- Khoopah, it is actually canopy noob.
Nisus, do you understand Hebrew? was the source you cited, your only reference for Hebrew?

wish you would research half the BS you read WBY.

Nisus, is there anyway you could disprove my statement below:
the parts JS used in the BoM, shows he plagiarized the KJV, too bad you're not honest enough to admit it, (even to yourself?)

if you are a teacher, would you have access to software to check for plagiarizing? it may be a tool to disprove me
 
WildBlueYonder said:
I'm glad you can take a joke, but on a more serious side, when confronted with 2 or 3 diff truth claims, how do you go about judging them? what criteria do you use?

That's better. See, WBY, you CAN be civil! Good job.

What criteria do I use to judge truth claims? Well, first and foremost I use what God tells me in my heart is true. But I also use my intellect. I ask, "Does this truth claim make sense to me? Does this boat float?" And I investigate further until I am satisfied that it is indeed true, or I find that it is false, or indeterminate, one of the three.

WildBlueYonder said:
have you ever studied islam? would you consider it a valid path to heaven, if not why not?

No, I haven't studied it, but as I understand it, it has some truth to it and some error. I think it can get you so far, and not much further, based on my knowledge of Mormon doctrine. Remember, in LDS doctrine there are three main degrees of glory, not just one heaven, and anyone can wind up in any of the three, or in outer darkness, based on their works while mortal.

WildBlueYonder said:
what do you think about atheism? in your mind, is there any possibility that it is a correct worldview, if not, why not?

I talk with God every day, so of course I cannot believe that He doesn't exist. I believe atheism to be a false doctrine.

WildBlueYonder said:
do you understand the root causes of why most mainstream catholic/protestant/Christian churches do not consider LDS christian? do you feel any points could be valid? or would be if such & such could be proven? or never, ever, never?

I understand some of the causes, sure. But I don't think they are ultimately valid, as it is after all "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." The Lord stands at the head of this church and inspires its leadership. Asking me to believe that Mormonism is false would be like asking me to believe that water is not wet.
 
What criteria do I use to judge truth claims? Well, first and foremost I use what God tells me in my heart is true. But I also use my intellect. I ask, "Does this truth claim make sense to me? Does this boat float?" And I investigate further until I am satisfied that it is indeed true, or I find that it is false, or indeterminate, one of the three.

Which claims have you found to be true?

I talk with God every day, so of course I cannot believe that He doesn't exist. I believe atheism to be a false doctrine.

Atheism IS NOT a doctrine. Does god talk back to you?

Asking me to believe that Mormonism is false would be like asking me to believe that water is not wet.

Hence, you select what you WANT to believe to suit your purposes.
 
wild young noobling, yes i study hebrew actually. you cite this

"Based on the KJV Translation
The Book of Mormon contains translation errors from the King James Version.
For instance, 2 Nephi 14:5 is the same as Isaiah 4:5. The KJV incorrectly translates the Hebrew word chuppah as "canopy," when the proper translation is "defense."
Another example is 2 Nephi 15:25, which is the same as Isaiah 5:25. The KJV incorrectly translates the Hebrew word cuwchah as "filth," when the proper translation is "torn."
If Moroni buried the plates in the Hill Cummorah not long after AD 420, why is it that the Book of Mormon includes the KJV translation errors which didn't occur until almost 1,200 years later? How could the Book of Mormon contain anything from the King James Bible? Mormons are not able to answer these questions, yet the answer is clear: the mythical plates never existed, Joseph Smith did not receive a revelation from an angel, and he certainly didn't translate anything."

which really doesn't make any sense, if u read those passages in the KJV. how many sources u want to disprove ? isn't one enough =p. i looked online and in my hebrew/english dictionary i have handy at my side at all times.

Khoopah, is actually canopy. your 'arguement' is self defeated, right when u look at the passage in the KJV.

when translating context is important to find the best word that is closest to what you're trying to articulate. in many languages there is much lost in translation and times where things simply cannot translate to carry out the same meaning.

Ata mevin?? (u understand?)

but i mean seriously how are u gonna post that, when it says "The KJV incorrectly translates the Hebrew word chuppah as "canopy," when the proper translation is "defense."

then u open up the KJV and it says defence?
then u open up hebrew dictionary and it says Khoopah, is canopy?

where is your argument when what u just copy pasted is imploding upon itself ?? lol
 
the Bible can be used by archaeologists to locate ancient sites, or ancient peoples (Hittites & Sumerians are 2 examples of here-to-for unknown peoples), Homer was used by Schliemann to discover the site of ancient Troy, can any mormon say the same of the BoM for Zarahemia, Bountiful, Lehi, & Hill Cumorah? is it?

The bible has also been very, very wrong on a great many things that cannot be supported archaeologically. Therefore, neither are very reliable sources, though at least the bible was actually written by people of antiquity and does have a bit more chance of being right about a given site than the BoM.
 
I haven't the sufficient space, time or belief that anything I would say would convince anyone deluded in superstition otherwise. I have, however, written on this elsewhere in this and other forums.

I can recommend several texts, currently used as archaeology textbooks, however.

Brewer, Douglas J. and Emily Teeter (2007). Egypt and the Egyptians, 2nd Edition. Cambridge University Press

Renfrew, Colin (2004). Archaeology: Theories, Methods, and Practice. London: Thames & Hudson

Finkelstein, Israel (1988). The Archaeology of the Israelite Settlement. Brill Academic Publishing

Finkelstein, Israel and Neil Silberman (2006). The Bible Unearthed. New York: Simon & Schuster

Dever, William (2003). Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company
 
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I haven't the sufficient space, time or belief that anything I would say would convince anyone deluded in superstition otherwise. I have, however, written on this elsewhere in this and other forums.

You have not clarified what you mean by this comment:
The bible has also been very, very wrong on a great many things that cannot be supported archaeologically.

Put up or shut up.
 
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Put up or shut up.

Hey dude, why not search the forums and see for yourself that he as well as others have "put up."

It probably won't make any difference to you anyways, facts are not your forte.
 
Hey dude, why not search the forums and see for yourself that he as well as others have "put up."

It probably won't make any difference to you anyways, facts are not your forte.

The fact is, I've asked him to clarify what he meant by his statement...the fact is, he has yet to do that.

Here's a fact for you: You continue on as you are (unrepentant and unbelieving) and you'll damn yourself for eternity...and here's another: that fact does not make any difference to you.
 
The original manuscripts that make up the Bible were written over a 1,500 year time span by more than 40 authors from every walk of life including kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, and scholars.

They were written in three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; in times of war and times of peace; and written on three different continents: Asia, Africa and Europe.

The fact is that some archaeological discoveries in confirming part of the Bible simultaneously cast doubt on the accuracy of other parts. The Moabite Stone, for example, corroborates the biblical claim that there was a king of Moab named Mesha, but the inscription on the stone gives a different account of the war between Moab and the Israelites recorded in 2 Kings 3. Mesha’s inscription on the stone claimed overwhelming victory, but the biblical account claims that the Israelites routed the Moabite forces and withdrew only after they saw Mesha sacrifice his eldest son as a burnt offering on the wall of the city the Moabites had retreated to (2 Kings 3:26-27). So the Moabite Stone, rather than corroborating the accuracy of the biblical record,
gives reason to suspect that both accounts are biased. Mesha’s inscription gave an account favorable to the Moabites, and the biblical account was slanted to favor the Israelites. The actual truth about the battle will probably never be known.

Other archaeological discoveries haven’t just cast doubt on the accuracy of some biblical information but have shown some accounts to be completely erroneous. A notable example would be the account of Joshua’s conquest and destruction of the Canaanite city of Ai. According to Joshua 8, Israelite forces attacked Ai, burned it, “utterly destroyed all the inhabitants,” and made it a “heap forever” (vs:26-28). Extensive archaeological work at the site of Ai, however, has revealed that the city was destroyed and burned around 2400 B. C., which would have been over a thousand years before the time of Joshua…

…The work of Kathleen Kenyon produced similar results in her excavation of the city of Jericho. Her conclusion was that the walls of Jericho were destroyed around 2300 B. C., about the same time that Ai was destroyed. Apparently, then, legends developed to explain the ruins of ancient cities, and biblical writers recorded them as tales of Joshua’s conquests. Information like this, however, is never mentioned by inerrantists when they talk about archaeological confirmation of biblical records…

Of course, there were numerous websites touting the accuracy of the Bible by citing Archeological discoveries.
 
The original manuscripts that make up the Bible were written over a 1,500 year time span by more than 40 authors from every walk of life including kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, and scholars.

They were written in three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; in times of war and times of peace; and written on three different continents: Asia, Africa and Europe.

The fact is that some archaeological discoveries in confirming part of the Bible simultaneously cast doubt on the accuracy of other parts. The Moabite Stone, for example, corroborates the biblical claim that there was a king of Moab named Mesha, but the inscription on the stone gives a different account of the war between Moab and the Israelites recorded in 2 Kings 3. Mesha’s inscription on the stone claimed overwhelming victory, but the biblical account claims that the Israelites routed the Moabite forces and withdrew only after they saw Mesha sacrifice his eldest son as a burnt offering on the wall of the city the Moabites had retreated to (2 Kings 3:26-27). So the Moabite Stone, rather than corroborating the accuracy of the biblical record,
gives reason to suspect that both accounts are biased. Mesha’s inscription gave an account favorable to the Moabites, and the biblical account was slanted to favor the Israelites. The actual truth about the battle will probably never be known.

Other archaeological discoveries haven’t just cast doubt on the accuracy of some biblical information but have shown some accounts to be completely erroneous. A notable example would be the account of Joshua’s conquest and destruction of the Canaanite city of Ai. According to Joshua 8, Israelite forces attacked Ai, burned it, “utterly destroyed all the inhabitants,” and made it a “heap forever” (vs:26-28). Extensive archaeological work at the site of Ai, however, has revealed that the city was destroyed and burned around 2400 B. C., which would have been over a thousand years before the time of Joshua…

…The work of Kathleen Kenyon produced similar results in her excavation of the city of Jericho. Her conclusion was that the walls of Jericho were destroyed around 2300 B. C., about the same time that Ai was destroyed. Apparently, then, legends developed to explain the ruins of ancient cities, and biblical writers recorded them as tales of Joshua’s conquests. Information like this, however, is never mentioned by inerrantists when they talk about archaeological confirmation of biblical records…

Of course, there were numerous websites touting the accuracy of the Bible by citing Archeological discoveries.

Oh, this reminds me of all the scholarship from Anne Catherine Emmerich. She was a nun in the early 19th Century. Probably the foremost visionary of the Catholic Church, but rather an embarrassment to them, as she had often reported seeing Biblic Visions to the contrary of how they were presented in the Bible.

There is a 4 Volume set "The Life of Christ and Biblical Revelation" or something like that, and it is remarkable how little this nun cared for the literal Bible but was so willing to correct it all from her visions.

Oh, Mel Gibson relied almost completely on Anne Catherine Emmerich for his screenplay "The Passion".

The more interesting movie would have been about Mary. We find that a number of Jewish Priests knew exactly who this little girl was destined to be, and saw to it that she was completely educated for the part -- being well informed of every written and oral prophecy having to do with the Mother of the Messiah and the Messiah... never hinting to her that it directly connected herself... encouraging only so far as telling her that she may one day be a hand-maid to the Mother of God.

Then there was the expanded story about finding Joseph to be her husband. He was middle aged confirmed bachelor and didn't want a wife and so he ignored the invitation given to all those of the House of David. The Priests gave each man a staff, and the True Husbands staff would turn to living wood and bloom in flower. None did. So they looked at the books and found that this one Joseph had not showed up. He was sent for, and as he walked into the room, his cane bloomed in White Lillies. Decades later when Mary's remaining goods were examined, it was found she had saved one of the Lillies, dried and pressed.

One of the rejected suitors was broken hearted and so joined a Religious Order -- the Order of Elijah at Mount Carmel. Well, decades later, after Jesus had been crucified and Paul was persecuting Christians, and he had become Superior to the Order, he sent a rescue mission and brought Mary out of danger to live in a Cave at Mount Carmel. The Young Man, having become an Old Man, found that his destiny had been True after all.

When the Crusaders came across Mount Carmel, a Millenium later, they were told the story and were so inspired that it influenced certain Crusader to join this still active Brotherhood -- the ONLY Brotherhood of the Catholic Church that originated prior to the Christian Era, its founder having been Elijah.

The Carmelites faced much resistence at first, from the Catholic Hierarchy -- being seen as a Jewish Order, but Anne Catherine Emmerich had a vision that Mary Herself had appeared to the Pope at that time and She had threatened him. She told him that he would be the Pope to sign the Order of Recognition, or the next Pope would, very soon.

Anyway, Anne Catherine Emmerich, whether one believes it all or not, it is all very fascinating. It seems to me that it is all either Actually True, or at least Spiritually True. But, yes, it might have been even better. Anne had this one vision that Mary came and gave her a dress to sew. She finished it and she was proud of it. But Mary appeared and showed her what THE DRESS MIGHT HAVE BEEN, and Anne was sad that in seeing what she saw, she had not been more discerning about the expositions.

But even while it could have been better, if it were up to me, I would toss out the Bible and Canonize the Notebooks of Anne Catherine Emmerich instead.
 
The original manuscripts that make up the Bible were written over a 1,500 year time span by more than 40 authors from every walk of life including kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, and scholars.

They were written in three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; in times of war and times of peace; and written on three different continents: Asia, Africa and Europe.

The fact is that some archaeological discoveries in confirming part of the Bible simultaneously cast doubt on the accuracy of other parts. The Moabite Stone, for example, corroborates the biblical claim that there was a king of Moab named Mesha, but the inscription on the stone gives a different account of the war between Moab and the Israelites recorded in 2 Kings 3. Mesha’s inscription on the stone claimed overwhelming victory, but the biblical account claims that the Israelites routed the Moabite forces and withdrew only after they saw Mesha sacrifice his eldest son as a burnt offering on the wall of the city the Moabites had retreated to (2 Kings 3:26-27). So the Moabite Stone, rather than corroborating the accuracy of the biblical record,
gives reason to suspect that both accounts are biased. Mesha’s inscription gave an account favorable to the Moabites, and the biblical account was slanted to favor the Israelites. The actual truth about the battle will probably never be known.

Other archaeological discoveries haven’t just cast doubt on the accuracy of some biblical information but have shown some accounts to be completely erroneous. A notable example would be the account of Joshua’s conquest and destruction of the Canaanite city of Ai. According to Joshua 8, Israelite forces attacked Ai, burned it, “utterly destroyed all the inhabitants,” and made it a “heap forever” (vs:26-28). Extensive archaeological work at the site of Ai, however, has revealed that the city was destroyed and burned around 2400 B. C., which would have been over a thousand years before the time of Joshua…

…The work of Kathleen Kenyon produced similar results in her excavation of the city of Jericho. Her conclusion was that the walls of Jericho were destroyed around 2300 B. C., about the same time that Ai was destroyed. Apparently, then, legends developed to explain the ruins of ancient cities, and biblical writers recorded them as tales of Joshua’s conquests. Information like this, however, is never mentioned by inerrantists when they talk about archaeological confirmation of biblical records…

Of course, there were numerous websites touting the accuracy of the Bible by citing Archeological discoveries.

You have quoted a page from infidels.org almost verbatim without citing your source...that is plagiarism--http://www.plagiarism.org/learning_center/what_is_plagiarism.html.

Your credibility is undermined at the outset...The conflicting accounts are just that. Ultimately, one must decide who to believe. If you understand the Bible to be written merely by men, the truth of either account is suspect. If, on the other hand, God was at work in the process overseeing/superintending the human writers as they penned the original manuscripts, then the Biblical account is correct. Given the vanity of man and his tendency to lie both to himself and to others (hint) it's not surprizing in the least that the truth of the battle would be surpressed and the king would have recorded for posterity a different account listing that as the 'official' version. Such a situation does nothing to undermine the Bible.

Here is some more info on Kathleen Kenyon:

"Herr, however, also conveniently summarises the somewhat mixed nature of Kenyon's legacy: for all the positive advances, there were also definite shortcomings. "Kenyon... did not capitilize fully on (the) implication of her stratigraphic techniques by producing final publications promptly. Indeed her method of digging, which most of us have subsequently adopted, causes a proliferation of loci that excavators often have difficulty keeping straight long enough to produce coherent published stratigraphic syntheses. Moreover, her insistence that excavation proceed in narrow trenches denies us, when we use the Jericho reports, the confidence that her loci, and the pottery assemblages that go with them, represent understandable human activity patterns over coherently connected living areas. The individual layers, insufficiently exposed horizontally, simply cannot be interpreted credibly in terms of function. This further makes publication difficult, both to produce and to use" (from http://www.ancientneareast.net/biography/kenyon.html)

Regarding the other issue surrounding AI, do some research here: http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/search/index.php?q=AI&btn=Search

Here is more food for thought:

"If one attempts to harmonize biblical and secular histories, working back from the time of Christ, little difficulty is encountered until one gets back prior to the United Kingdom (i.e., until before the time when Saul became King of Israel). There is no doubt that the central people and places named in the New Testament existed, for example, and a number of Israel's kings are named in the literature of surrounding countries.

But when one begins to work back much prior to the United Kingdom period the picture changes completely. For example: none of the prominent figures of the Exodus can be positively identified in secular records; the chronology and history of Egypt seem incompatible with the biblical account; the archaeology of Jericho cannot be made to fit the biblical record of Joshua's defeat of that city without sacrificing biblical and scientific integrity; and the situation at Ai is even less workable. The trail of harmony between biblical and secular history is lost as one moves back into the period of the judges.

This problem is widely recognized. In fact, the majority of scholars today have concluded that the Bible is simply not historically reliable before the United Kingdom period. They explain away the earlier portions of the Bible as folktales bearing little if any resemblance to real history. Until recently, conservative, Bible-believing scholarship has been in a difficult position. If the Bible tells an accurate story of history, why do archaeology and the Bible not agree prior to the United Kingdom period?

The Solution
Gerald E. Aardsma, Ph.D., has proposed that this apparent disharmony results from a problem in traditional biblical chronology. Traditional biblical chronologies are constructed by assembling the various chronological data given in the Bible itself. Interpretive issues have given rise to relatively minor variations in traditional biblical chronologies, depending on the scholar. The traditional chronology displayed in the time chart at left is typical.

The key biblical chronological link used to determine the date of the Exodus is a number in 1 Kings 6:1. This verse reads, "And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel...". Solomon's reign is usually calculated to have begun around 970 B.C., thus placing the Exodus around 1450 B.C. As stated above, the archaeology of Egypt and Canaan at this time is incompatible with the biblical record. In addition, the Bible lists consecutive events between the Exodus and Solomon's reign which total at least 600 years.

In 1990, Dr. Aardsma proposed a major adjustment to traditional biblical chronology. He proposed that the "480" of 1 Kings 6:1 was originally "1,480" but the Hebrew letters corresponding to the "one thousand" were lost at an early stage of copying.

This proposal is applied in the second time chart at left. The new biblical date for the Exodus becomes ca. 2450 B.C., and prior biblical events are similarly shifted to earlier times, by exactly 1000 years relative to traditional biblical chronology.

This change is radical, and at first unimaginable. However, as one begins to examine the archaeology at the new dates, the harmony between biblical and secular accounts is overwhelming. Egypt is struck by national disaster, effectively causing the collapse of the Old Kingdom at the end of the sixth dynasty. The trail of the Israelites in the desert at the time of the Exodus, and remains of their encampment dating to exactly this time period have been found. Both Jericho and Ai were destroyed ca. 2400 B.C., with destruction layers accurately fitting the biblical descriptions. The evidence that Dr. Aardsma's proposal is correct has become overwhelming and continues to mount.

This discovery and the ensuing research have resolved the conflicts between biblical and secular histories prior to the United Kingdom period. Dr. Aardsma's research has also led to many exciting discoveries surrounding early biblical events such as Noah's Flood. Conservative, Bible-believing scholarship today has an answer for those who claim that the Old Testament stories are mere fabrications. This discovery is of extreme significance to anyone who believes the Bible or studies biblical archaeology.

The foregoing article was abstracted from the book A New Approach to the Chronology of Biblical History from Abraham to Samuel. Full details and references can be found there."

(Source: http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/index.php)

However, despite all of the above, I'm looking for clarification of a particular comment made by Skinwalker...this has not happened.

On a final note, you can be sure that given time, and diligent perseverence, all biblical assertions will be shown to have been true and accurate. Any indications to the contrary are merely the result of a rush to judgement on the part of those who have a bias against the Bible. This is a fact of history, having repeatedly been shown to be the case in instances where the Bible was claimed to have been wrong, yet in time vindicated by further efforts.
 
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The fact is, I've asked him to clarify what he meant by his statement...the fact is, he has yet to do that.

His statement was crystal clear in its clarity.

Here's a fact for you: You continue on as you are (unrepentant and unbelieving) and you'll damn yourself for eternity...

Perhaps, but I created a thread here that hypothesizes we have no control over whether or not we'll burn for an eternity. Your god may have decided your fate long before you were even born. You can be as pious as you want, but you'll not escape the flames of hell. It may indeed suck to be you.

and here's another: that fact does not make any difference to you.

Why should it? If your god has a grand plan, there is no escaping our fates.
 
If your god has a grand plan, there is no escaping our fates.

His grand plan involves His Vindication and Glory...from your standpoint, this can be at His expense or yours...i.e with your cooperation or without it, but, there is no escaping your involvement/participation in His Vindication/Glorification either way.
 
His grand plan involves His Vindication and Glory...from your standpoint, this can be at His expense or yours...i.e with your cooperation or without it, but, there is no escaping your involvement/participation in His Vindication/Glorification either way.

Just as there is no escaping your fate burning for an eternity. Surely, you MUST be worried about such a future for you and your family?
 
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