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Mormons and polygamy
- Thread starter phlogistician
- Start date
Joseph Smith was a deceiver. He coned a great deal of people.
Steady on, I got an infraction for saying something like this.
I got it overturned by Plazma however, as JamesR was stretching things, applying forum rules to non members, and dead ones at that.
Socratic Spelunker
Registered Senior Member
A peer reviewed article on a set of golden tablets that we don't have, and never existed in the first place? Are you serious?
Maybe not specifically on the plates, but some historian somewhere, not affiliated with religion, must have commented on American Religious History or The Latter Day Saint movement. Especially a church as controversial as the LDS must have some significant commentary on it. I mean, in a historical sense, this didn't happen that long ago and many writings of Joseph Smith are well preserved. Is there anything regarding his view of women, motivation for instituting polygamy, etc.?
The guy in the video substantiates the dimensions of the replica according to Smith's own testimony btw.
Can you show me in Joseph's account that they compressed the pages before measuring? By that I mean, were those inches of solid metal? Or mostly empty space between pages. Other ancient books of gold plates have had wrinkled pages that did not lie completely flat. How much of those measurements were empty space? Does the account say?
Talking of objectivity, did you Google Smith's arrest record? Do you not find it a little suspicious he had a history of 'finding' things?
I did, but my reasons for believing don't hinged on whether or not Joseph Smith was perfect. The record is well known to the LDS church. I'm not sure he had a history of "finding" things, but he sure had a history of "searching" for things. And we know that, for a time, he used stones to translate, etc.
'more likely' based upon what? But anyway, even if the pages were thinner, gold is more dense, so the points in the video still stand.
Where did I say "more likely"?
But Joseph never said the plates were made of gold. He said they had the appearance of gold. Can you show me otherwise in his account? A definitive statement from Joseph Smith that the plates were actually made of pure gold? Even the LDS believe that they must have been some alloy at best.
But they were both, and you are missing the point.
Well, maybe. I doubt it though. "Genius" is another term that nobody can really agree on. But even if they were, the point, or my understanding of it, is that their genius is not in the field of religion, or the LDS church, or even american history. So I don't see on what grounds I should accept their opinions as authoritative in this matter.
Spare me the pop-psychology, because you are wrong.
Maybe. Probably not, but maybe.
Maybe not specifically on the plates,
From memory (I'll check sources later) Smith incorporated mis-translations from Egyptian Scrolls into 'The Pearl of Great Price', and these translations have since been proven to be incorrect, since hieroglyphs have been translated correctly. That doesn't bode well for the veracity of the plates story, especially since they were allegedly written in Egyptian also. It also smells rather that Smith sought 'testimony' to prove the existence of the plates, and then 'returned' them, so there is no provenance.
It's rather a shame the 'discovery' predates photography, but the established way of taking a copy of an engraving is to make a rubbing of it, using paper and a wax crayon. Odd Smith didn't make a copy of such an important historical document.
Can you show me in Joseph's account ... Does the account say?
The guy in the video quotes Smith's own words 'not so thick as common tin'
I did, but my reasons for believing don't hinged on whether or not Joseph Smith was perfect.
Smith being or not being 'perfect' is not the question. It's that Smith was a well known con man.
The record is well known to the LDS church. I'm not sure he had a history of "finding" things, but he sure had a history of "searching" for things.
His arrest record seems to be for 'searching' and his cult following gained from allegedly 'finding' things,... I would say the former invalidates the latter.
And we know that, for a time, he used stones to translate, etc.
No you don't. You know he said he did, and his cult followers backed him up. We do know his translations that became the 'Book of Abraham' were false however, so his 'stone' didn't work.
Where did I say "more likely"?
Apols, my typo, 'more like' that book you referenced. Smith described the dimensions of the tablets himself, I'll go with that.
But Joseph never said the plates were made of gold. He said they had the appearance of gold. Can you show me otherwise in his account? A definitive statement from Joseph Smith that the plates were actually made of pure gold? Even the LDS believe that they must have been some alloy at best.
Saying they were 'alloy' sounds like apologetics. Smith said 'golden', which usually means made of gold, unless the phrase 'golden colour', or 'golden tone' or somesuch is used. By itself, it implies the item is made of gold.
But even if they were, the point, or my understanding of it, is that their genius is not in the field of religion, or the LDS church, or even american history. So I don't see on what grounds I should accept their opinions as authoritative in this matter.
The point is rather that the Elder, who was supposedly well versed in Mormon theology had gaps in his knowledge, and we'd only read select chapters of the Book of Mormon. On American history, Smith tries to rewrite that, and archaeology doesn't agree with him. We saw the flaws, he just didn't, or accepted weak apologies for them. Enquiring minds however, don't.
Maybe. Probably not, but maybe.
Religion makes me sad, not angry.
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Socratic Spelunker
Registered Senior Member
From memory (I'll check sources later) Smith incorporated mis-translations from Egyptian Scrolls into 'The Pearl of Great Price', and these translations have since been proven to be incorrect, since hieroglyphs have been translated correctly. That doesn't bode well for the veracity of the plates story, especially since they were allegedly written in Egyptian also. It also smells rather that Smith sought 'testimony' to prove the existence of the plates, and then 'returned' them, so there is no provenance.
I'd actually like to see the sources for that if you could please provide them =).
It's rather a shame the 'discovery' predates photography, but the established way of taking a copy of an engraving is to make a rubbing of it, using paper and a wax crayon. Odd Smith didn't make a copy of such an important historical document.
That is odd. But here's a site showing a copy allegedly made by Joseph Smith. I don't know why it seems unsure. Maybe they haven't been authenticated as his writing?
The guy in the video quotes Smith's own words 'not so thick as common tin'
Thats not what I'm referring to and I don't know how else to explain it. Please reread my post regarding this. I'm not trying to be condescending, I just don't know how else to explain my point here.
Smith being or not being 'perfect' is not the question. It's that Smith was a well known con man.
I understand that. My point was that I'm ok with that. I mean, we see countless examples today that just because a person is charged, even convicted, doesn't mean they're guilty and it's well documented that people were prone to conspiring against Smith.
His arrest record seems to be for 'searching' and his cult following gained from allegedly 'finding' things,... I would say the former invalidates the latter.
So you agree with me then?
No you don't. You know he said he did, and his cult followers backed him up. We do know his translations that became the 'Book of Abraham' were false however, so his 'stone' didn't work.
You say he was a "glass looker". I say, Yes, he was. Then you disagree. Come on, now.
Apols, my typo, 'more like' that book you referenced. Smith described the dimensions of the tablets himself, I'll go with that.
I'm not talking about the dimensions. I thought I made clear by the context that I was referring to the thickness of the pages, which Joseph says were thinner than tin, but doesn't say how thin. I think actual physical examples of this type of writing would be a safer guide than our own guesses and interpretations (where details are omitted from his account).
Saying they were 'alloy' sounds like apologetics. Smith said 'golden', which usually means made of gold, unless the phrase 'golden colour', or 'golden tone' or somesuch is used. By itself, it implies the item is made of gold.
Assumption. Speculation. I don't know that Smith ever said Golden. He may have, so I'd like to see it in context, because even that could just refer to the color and that usage is still in common use today. But he did use the exact phrase "...had the appearance of gold" Joseph's brother, William Smith, said that he understood the plates to be "a mixture of gold and copper", though I don't know what this understanding was based on.
The point is rather that the Elder, who was supposedly well versed in Mormon theology had gaps in his knowledge, and we'd only read select chapters of the Book of Mormon. On American history, Smith tries to rewrite that, and archaeology doesn't agree with him. We saw the flaws, he just didn't, or accepted weak apologies for them. Enquiring minds however, don't.
My point is that I don't know why we're talking about this kid.
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Let's take a different course here Mr Spelunker. Do you think Scientology is true?
Socratic Spelunker
Registered Senior Member
Let's take a different course here Mr Spelunker. Do you think Scientology is true?
I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, but assuming you're working towards a point.
I think every religion and philosophy has some truth to it. But if you mean, Do I agree with EVERY doctrine of Scientology? No.
I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, but assuming you're working towards a point.
I think every religion and philosophy has some truth to it. But if you mean, Do I agree with EVERY doctrine of Scientology? No.
That wasn't the question.
Do you think Scientology is true?
Socratic Spelunker
Registered Senior Member
That wasn't the question.
Do you think Scientology is true?
Its not a yes or no question. I think some of its doctrines are true. Others are most likely not.
Its not a yes or no question. I think some of its doctrines are true. Others are most likely not.
How about the mass destruction of aliens that allegedly took place, and the Thetan stuff?
Socratic Spelunker
Registered Senior Member
How about the mass destruction of aliens that allegedly took place, and the Thetan stuff?
That I don't agree with.