mormonism & homosexuality

[SnakeLord]

But there are degrees of sin.

Oh right. Where did jesus highlight this? Did he make a list?

"And I, Jesus, sayeth to thee that stealing a bike is worse than stealing a car".

He was telling you that not only the action is sin but the very thinking about it. So much so that he told you to tear your eye out and throw it away for it would do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. So according to him, you can get thrown to hell without ever acting upon a feeling, but just for the feeling itself.

He didn't say anywhere that; "well, it's a sin but not as big a sin as another sin".

Tell your friends that god "detests" homosexuals, and that they have 3 choices available to them:

1) Chop the offending part of their body off as jesus suggests, (in this case their brain)

2) Turn straight.

3) Go to hell.

But let me guess, they're excused because they're in your collective right? Doesn't matter what sins they break as long as they call themselves christian.

 

[Brutus1964]

Oh right. Where did jesus highlight this? Did he make a list?

"And I, Jesus, sayeth to thee that stealing a bike is worse than stealing a car".

He was telling you that not only the action is sin but the very thinking about it. So much so that he told you to tear your eye out and throw it away for it would do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. So according to him, you can get thrown to hell without ever acting upon a feeling, but just for the feeling itself.

He didn't say anywhere that; "well, it's a sin but not as big a sin as another sin".

Tell your friends that god "detests" homosexuals, and that they have 3 choices available to them:

1) Chop the offending part of their body off as jesus suggests, (in this case their brain)

2) Turn straight.

3) Go to hell.

But let me guess, they're excused because they're in your collective right? Doesn't matter what sins they break as long as they call themselves christian.

You are right as far as stating that even the smallest of sins will separate you from God. This is absolutely true. Having a bad thought will send you to Hell the same as murdering someone in the eyes of God. But there are sins that are much harder to overcome than others. Jesus Christ will forgive all our sins the big and the small as long as we accept him and repent. Repent means to forsake your sins and try you’re hardest to never do it again. If you do it again then repent again and again. After a while the desire to do the sin will be lifted and you will have control over your own body and appetites.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Brutus1964: Yes lusting after a woman or someone of the same sex is a sin. But there are degrees of sin. If you took that scripture to it's extreme you would be justified in actually committing adultery because hey I thought about it. It's the same as actually doing it. So I might as well do it.

The reason Christ said not to lust after a woman is because that is the first step in actually doing it. If you try and keep your mind pure, you will not dwell on it. Also the act of lust is more than just an attraction. It is a all consuming desire to have sex with someone. If someone did this it would be a sin and worthy of repentance.
*************
M*W: First of all, those weren't Jesus' words. They were the words of Paul, the homosexual who invented Christianity. Jesus, should he have actually existed, lusted after Mary Magdalen as was told in the Gospel of Philip.

Secondly, as the world turns and humanity continues to evolve, heterosexuality is becoming passe. Perhaps the world has the optimum number of peoples so the desire and means to procreate is diminishing or changing to suit the times. All animals, including humans, are sexual beings. It's in our nature to have the desire to procreate -- even if our actions of procreating do not lead to birthing new individuals -- our sexuality remains intact. Religions try to suppress our natural tendencies. Anytime one of our innermost desires are thwarted or incomplete, the resulting actions will come out in some perverted way. Just look at the sexual crimes of the Roman Catholic Church which I blame on centuries of repressed sexuality due to celibacy. Not only did the Church create an evil environment for perverted sexual activity, it attracts the worst of perverts for the job!

Human sexuality is a natural and healthy part of our humanity, unless it is suppressed by the guilt rendering Church or by the guilt erroneously instilled in the individual's mind.

The times, they are a'changing. We are at the crossroads of our human development. As time goes on, there will be more homosexuals than heterosexuals, contributing much to Christianity's demise. Would it be a sin if your child was born with blue eyes? Would your brother be doomed to hell if he was blasted with female hormones as an embryo in utero? Would your beautiful daughter be shamed and banished by society for falling in love with a woman? Human sexuality should not be an issue for religionists' edicts anymore than one's skin color or one's eyes. One's sexuality is nurtured long before birth and it develops and manifests as one becomes pubertal -- regardless of what direction that may lead. Sexuality emanates from the innermost spirit of humanity. Unless it is nurtured and grown from its very core, it will become repressed and perverted. Laws and religions need to get out of our genitals.

 

[SnakeLord]

But there are sins that are much harder to overcome than others.

In this case the 'easy' sin to overcome would be the action. Deciding to actually do something or not do something is far easier than having a completely natural feeling. This goes for any natural feeling: pride, jealousy, anger, probably happiness to for that matter.

Jesus Christ will forgive all our sins the big and the small as long as we accept him and repent. Repent means to forsake your sins and try you’re hardest to never do it again. If you do it again then repent again and again.

Ah yes, the christian mind at it's most perverse. Sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent. Who gives a shit if you sin as long as you repent after? If you do it twice no big deal, just repent some more and so on all the way down the line until your fat on your sins, but happy in the knowledge that you kept saying sorry for doing them. It reminds me of that quote:

"I once asked god for a new bike, but then realised it doesn't work that way. So I stole one and asked him to forgive me."

After a while the desire to do the sin will be lifted and you will have control over your own body and appetites.

This is nonsense. You cannot get rid of natural feelings, addictions or appetites. I can prove it to you. Tell me when you think you can control anger and hatred and I'll come round and kill your family. Tell me when you think you can control addiction and I'll come round and inject you with heroin. You are not in control, and never will be when concerning these things. Emotions can be tempered to a degree, but you will never have complete control.

You can see it's affects by reading some of Leo's or Woody's posts. Full to the brim with hatred for atheists, which is odd given that jesus said something about loving people. I guess afterwards they just repent and it makes it ok. But these feelings of hatred that they have cannot just be swept aside or forgotten about, regardless to what jesus says - which just shows how powerless he truly is, and that man does have one over him. I could make you sin right now without so much as blinking an eyelid, and in that moment you would show jesus exactly how unimportant he is.

While you think you can just say 'sorry' and be done with it, I advise you to listen to jesus. Throw away your money, don't drink, and if you have feelings chop up your brain, if you say a bad word - chop off your tongue, and if you look at someone the wrong way - gouge out your eyes.

 

[Yorda]

I guess afterwards they just repent and it makes it ok. But these feelings of hatred that they have cannot just be swept aside or forgotten about, regardless to what jesus says - which just shows how powerless he truly is, and that man does have one over him.

Christians are forgiven by Jesus, non-religious people are forgiven by themselves. It's the same thing, you see, Christians just call the "self" Jesus.
But Jesus also said: "If you do not forgive people's sins, they are not forgiven."
---
People who think homosexuality is wrong probably shouldn't talk about it since it's such a sensitive subject.

 

[SnakeLord]

Christians are forgiven by Jesus, non-religious people are forgiven by themselves. It's the same thing, you see, Christians just call the "self" Jesus.

Not exactly, no.

Personally I see forgiveness as coming from the one who has been sinned against. If I called my wife a bitch, it would be upto her whether to forgive or not. jesus, god and billy the leprechaun are completely irrelevant to that and have no say whatsoever. Even after the forgiveness has been given, it's hard to feel forgiven inside because you always have the memory of what you've done or said.

Christians always seem to regard it as something done over tea and forgotten about within 30 seconds once you've told the priest or the clouds about it.

 

[Yorda]

Snake

What if the one you sinned against suddenly dies or dissapears, so that you'll never be able to have forgiveness from her? Will you live your life hating yourself even if you only did a "small" sin? If people really believe in God, maybe they can be more honest and get more selfconfidence to forgive themselves because they believe an all-powerful God is listening to them. I think that if I really regret something "in my heart" I could forgive myself.

I think it's possible to forgive oneself too, it may just take a long time. If someone else can forgive us, we should be able to forgive ourselves too. It's a good deed to forgive oneself too, you know. Ruining your own life because you cannot forgive yourself is not a good deed. If we don't forgive ourselves, we don't just hurt ourselves, but others too.

 

[duendy]

Because I do not view you strictly based on your sexuality.

d__Well, i would want you to. My sexuality is a HUGE part of me

I do not define myself soley based on mine. Sometimes you can't help whom you are attracted to. I am married and occasionally I will meet a girl at work or somewhere and I may be attracted to her. It is not lust, and I do not dwell on it, and I would never act on it.

d__you're being a bit of a hypocrite here. people who lust usually dont dwell on it. attraction, lust, what's the difference?

It is a natural response. This is the same for a gay person.

d__ahhhhhhhh. if ONLY you MEANT that!

They may be attracted to someone of the same sex but that does not mean they have to act on it.

d__errr, i said PRACTICING. don't give me the 'i will accept you if you dont do Queer sex malarchy. THAt isn't acceptance at ALL

It is a choice to engage in homosexual sex or any sex type of sex for that matter.

d__ Yes. And i CHHOSE Queer sexuality. How do you feel about that as a Mormon. Am i going to hell. would i be alowed in your church?

We can disagree on something and not be "enemies". That is the problem with radical Islam is they feel anyone who disagrees with them is an infidel and worthy of death.

d__Well, i have to say that i would respect THAt better than the mixed messages you are giving me.
On one hand you are informing me that ANy lusty thought will send me into hell, never MIND Gay SEX! and in the next breath are saying that it doesn't matter. I am confused. Can you help me understand what exactly it is you mean here?

Mormon’s consider homosexuality a sin, but we don’t stone people for it.

No, you believe in a myth which banishes us all to hell. Gee thanks.....With 'friends' like you, do i NEEd enimies?

 

[Brutus1964]

There are steps to repentance.

1) Recognize that you have sinned
2) Feel genuine sorrow for having sinned
3) Confess to God, a church leader and to the person you have sinned against.
4) Ask God for forgiveness, and the person you have offended.
5) Make restitution to the person you have offended.
6) Forsake the sin
7) Forgive yourself and receive forgiveness

If the person you have offended is dead or not around anymore, or in cases were restitution is impossible. You can confess to a church leader who will advise and help you to overcome your sin and receive forgiveness from the lord.

 

[duendy]

listen very very closely Brutus.....:

I HAVE NOT SINNED!

Only in your belief system (and others from which it stems from) have i sinned. Are we clear?

So, IF you adhere To such a belief system which believes i am a sinner IF i PRACTICe Queer sexuality, and love it. which i DO. THEN you are my enemy aren't you? Go on admit it. because we can never meet. Because everythime you will be saying:

'have you stopped sinning yet?'

right?

so you belief acts as a barrier to any relationship we might have had. 'good morming' and 'good evening' and general 'good manners' are quite suprficial in this context. i actually would feel more genuinity if you called me a 'fuking cokcsukin faggot'. that's more honest at least, than a sanctimonious plea for me to rePENT?

 

[Silas]

so you belief acts as a barrier to any relationship we might have had. 'good morming' and 'good evening' and general 'good manners' are quite suprficial in this context. i actually would feel more genuinity if you called me a 'fuking cokcsukin faggot'. that's more honest at least, than a sanctimonious plea for me to rePENT?

So, first of all, I think this establishes that duendy is a male, after all!

But I do take issue with your increasing righteous indignation and apparent willingness to have a full-on fight. It's not like Brutus put up a thread denouncing all gays, you put the thread on specifically to press Brutus's buttons because he is a known Mormon. Brutus may well be dodging the issue, but that may simply be the best way he knows how to avoid a confrontation he has no particular reason to pursue.

It may be that Brutus in his mind does not in fact condemn you or any other gay for their natural feelings, nor for the natural desire to express them. However, as a proselytising Mormon he knows that if he states this opinion in a public forum he will be open to charges of hypocrisy and potential censure from his own Church. So he gives the party line on "condemning the sin, not the sinner" and you are not satisfied because he doesn't call you a cocksucking faggot?

Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with you about the difference between your attitude to sin (if nobody else is hurt, where's the sin?) and Brutus' rather more dogmatic approach. But you're really here to pick a fight, and you know it.

 

[Brutus1964]

That is a good question Duendy

Are you a male or female. Your posts suggest female, but after your last post I am not sure now.

No need to use derogatory terms. We are not the "Reverend" Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka Kansas. In fact he would consider the LDS church to be a "fag" church since we allow non-practicing homosexuals to remain as members.

 

[duendy]

So, first of all, I think this establishes that duendy is a male, after all!

d__think of me as girl boy or both, it is no concern of mine though it seems to keep you'll amused

But I do take issue with your increasing righteous indignation and apparent willingness to have a full-on fight.

d__no, you intuit me wrong, i am cool throughout this, i CAN get angry make no mistake, and all other emotions. i am not anti-passion. but in this instance i am challenging Brutus, not fighting

It's not like Brutus put up a thread denouncing all gays, you put the thread on specifically to press Brutus's buttons because he is a known Mormon.

d__well...obviously. we KNOW he IS. he has done a fiar bit of misionizing his cause here. and i wanted to focus on his causes views about homosexuality. Of COURSe i do

Brutus may well be dodging the issue, but that may simply be the best way he knows how to avoid a confrontation he has no particular reason to pursue.

d__well, doggin the issue is not good enough, i want honesty. i want to know where i stand. it's alright pretending one is good mannered and the next breath politely tell you you're condemned to hell less-en you repent your sin. such 'good' manners can trun to the utmost evi given the right circumstances and power. as we well know in history. right? so i do not encourage hypocrisy, i challenge it

It may be that Brutus in his mind does not in fact condemn you or any other gay for their natural feelings, nor for the natural desire to express them.

d__well 'Brutus1964' might very well not. but who is Brutus. is Brutus an individual who can think for himself. or he hs totally caught up in Mormonismic judgments regarding my sexaultiy. That's one of the things i'm trying to get at

However, as a proselytising Mormon he knows that if he states this opinion in a public forum he will be open to charges of hypocrisy and potential censure from his own Church. So he gives the party line on "condemning the sin, not the sinner" and you are not satisfied because he doesn't call you a cocksucking faggot?

d__well i don't REALLy like being called that, and dont like others same neither. i was just making a dramatic point that i am not mad on hypocrisy.
I try and speak my truth here as much as i can, and i expect others to do so too. I am exploring how me and Brutus could ever really meet in a deep way if he sees me as an unrepentant sinner. is it possible......? i don't think so. so....?

Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with you about the difference between your attitude to sin (if nobody else is hurt, where's the sin?) and Brutus' rather more dogmatic approach. But you're really here to pick a fight, and you know it.

no, YOU seem to know it. you really though are interpreting what is going on in a wrong way.
right from the beginning, before B admitted he was mormon, i found him very easy going. BUT what does that MASK is what i am interested in, and i am trying to bring it out. NOt hide it away. it's when you hide things they fester

 

[duendy]

That is a good question Duendy

d__i look foreward to you answering it then.

Are you a male or female. Your posts suggest female, but after your last post I am not sure now.

d__ahhhhhh, ambiguity. i LOVE it!

No need to use derogatory terms. We are not the Reverend Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka Kansas.

i know i know, that's another 1000 lashes for me from the demons of the dark pit

 

[Brutus1964]

Duendy

I am not going to condemn you or judge you. God will be the ultimate judge. Also LDS do not believe in a burning Hell. Everyone will get his or her measure of Glory except for the Son's of Perdition. Gay People are God's children too so they are also heirs to his blessings.

You asked if you would be accepted in my church and still be gay? You would certainly be welcome to come to church, but to be baptized you would need to repent and forsake your sins. This would include your homosexual lifestyle.

To repent and strive for perfection is a long road. We must try to put away our devilish carnal nature and take control of our own selves. This includes taking control of all our appetites including sex, overeating, smoking, drinking, and drugs. Anything addictive that takes control of our minds and bodies is evil. They enslave us to our own desires and passions and take away that which is most precious. Having a relationship with God, praying, reading scriptures, avoiding temptation, freeing our minds of evil thoughts all help us to control our own selves and remove the shackles and manacles that bind us. This is where true freedom resides.

 

[Athelwulf]

Duendy, I feel you are unjustifiably overreacting. I understand why ya would hate Brutus for what he believes, but understand that it was you who asked him. You can't get mad at him kuz of his answer if you asked for his answer. This is a bait-and-hook, and it's not very nice.

Also, ya should understand that Brutus hates the fact that you are a homosexual. He doesn't hate you the person for being a homosexual. That goes against his Mormon teachings.

I disagree with Brutus's stance on homosexuality. I hate the fact that he is against homosexuality, but I don't hate him the person for thinking so. I'd rather see you following my example than going on as you are. I can't make ya do it, and I won't try either, but I politely request this of you because this would make relations between you and Brutus much smoother. Brutus seems to me to be a decent human being, and I know you can be as well.

Now, as for Yorda,

If people really believe in God, maybe they can be more honest and get more selfconfidence to forgive themselves because they believe an all-powerful God is listening to them.

I am perfectly capable of forgiving myself for something, as are most other Atheists. I don't need some God in the equation, and neither do you.

 

[Brutus1964]

Athulwulf

Very well said.

 

[Mystech]

I would not call the LDS church a fundamentalist church. In fact fundamentalist Mormons are the ones who live out in the desert and practice polygamy. They are not affiliated at all with the LDS church. Any practicing polygamists in the LDS church now are excommunicated.

I've got to agree with Brutus on this one. As outlandishly strict and restrictive many of the tenants of the mormon church seem to most outsiders, the real fundamentalists are the ones who live in the middle of nowhere on the Arizona and Utah boarder, and allow their spiritual leaders decide which women go to which men an where they'll live while they all stockpile survival gear and weapons for whatever coming storm they think is coming that they need to weather. To be honest I thought that these types were sort of just a rumor, but then Arizona had a gubernatorial candidate a few years back who's entire platform was that we'd drive these people back across the boarder into Utah where he felt they belong, haha. Also a lot of those Neo Nazi types in Northern Arizona as well, for that matter . . . it's a really strange fucking neighborhood.

 

[Xylene]

Do you really think that God--with all the other B.S. that He/She/It has to deal with--really gives a damn, frankly, about who sleeps with whom, or what sex they are?

 

[Mystech]

Do you really think that God--with all the other B.S. that He/She/It has to deal with--really gives a damn, frankly, about who sleeps with whom, or what sex they are?

Yes, apparently the ineffable ethereal deity who is responsible for giving us our intangible souls which he shall save for us and lead into his unplaceable mystic utopian kingdom is eminently concerned with what we do with our physical bodies behind closed doors. . .

You know, I'm pretty sure that there's a good reason we're not supposed to know the will of God; Man did a pretty awful patch-work job of inventing it!