Morality Without God

[Saturnine Pariah]

Everyone else believes that the Universe has a purpose.

That is a very arrogant assumption there.

 

[wynn]

Huh? My point was simply that you appear to believe that one's world view can only possibly come down to two choices: the existence of some sort of God, or meaninglessness derived from nothingness destined for pointlessness.

Yes. What other options are there?

If you want to see who can formulate the most diverse and profound conceptions of God, perhaps we can do that in another thread.

Go ahead!

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

Yes. What other options are there?

:facepalm:

 

[Rav]

Yes. What other options are there?

Last time you asked me to share a portion of my own tentative philosophical and spiritual outlook, you didn't even bother to comment on any of the important aspects of it. The fact you're here, now, essentially asking the same question again tells me that in your own mind, you've simply concluded that there was no real substance to it. From that I can reasonably conclude that you believe that it's only profound to me because I'm somehow oblivious to the fact that there's nothing actually profound about it at all. In other words, what you're essentially doing every time you either directly or indirectly present a personal god of some sort as the only thing from which one can legitimately derive any true meaning and purpose, is saying that everyone who doesn't believe that is basically deluding themselves.

What I think is really going on however, at least in terms of your evaluation of what you know of my own metaphysical outlook, is a simple failure to even attempt to properly appreciate it. You can't see the substance in it because you don't really look. It's a lot like the difference between an idealistic teenagers dream of a knight in shining armour, and the reality of an actual relationship. A person in the throws of the former can't help but project it onto the latter. But if you go through life chasing the idealization, believing that it must exist simply because you can imagine such a thing, you wont see the 'magic' in reality itself. And the thing is that when you do, it turns out that it's no less profound than the idealization. As far as I am concerned, it's more so.

 

[Balerion]

Last time you asked me to share a portion of my own tentative philosophical and spiritual outlook, you didn't even bother to comment on any of the important aspects of it. The fact you're here, now, essentially asking the same question again tells me that in your own mind, you've simply concluded that there was no real substance to it. From that I can reasonably conclude that you believe that it's only profound to me because I'm somehow oblivious to the fact that there's nothing actually profound about it at all. In other words, what you're essentially doing every time you either directly or indirectly present a personal god of some sort as the only thing from which one can legitimately derive any true meaning and purpose, is saying that everyone who doesn't believe that is basically deluding themselves.

What I think is really going on however, at least in terms of your evaluation of what you know of my own metaphysical outlook, is a simple failure to even attempt to properly appreciate it. You can't see the substance in it because you don't really look. It's a lot like the difference between an idealistic teenagers dream of a knight in shining armour, and the reality of an actual relationship. A person in the throws of the former can't help but project it onto the latter. But if you go through life chasing the idealization, believing that it must exist simply because you can imagine such a thing, you wont see the 'magic' in reality itself. And the thing is that when you do, it turns out that it's no less profound than the idealization. As far as I am concerned, it's more so.

Excellent post, Rav.

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

:thumbsup:Bravo Rav...Bravo,

 

[Bells]

Let's not be silly.

Come come Wynn. When conversing with you on any subject, I expect silliness.

The only people who really believe that the Universe has no purpose are those poor chaps in white padded cells.

Why?

You still didn't answer the question by the way. Why does the universe have to have a purpose for you?

If I am to give your answer any consideration, I would simply attribute it to your need to stay out of the mental assylum again.

Everyone else believes that the Universe has a purpose.

A very emphatic statement.

And your proof of this is where exactly?

Sure, when confronted, many people might deny the existence of such a purpose, as they feel it sounds preposterous, or they give an answer based on an attitude of defensiveness.

And then of course we have you, who can't even answer a question...

Nevertheless, in their daily lives, they act as if the Universe has a purpose. Otherwise, they wouldn't put one foot in front of the other when walking.

How do they do that?

By simply living?

You see, I personally feel that individuals who follow the belief system that the universe has a purpose, that they somehow have a place within it and that their existence is important in the grand scheme of things are full of themselves and cannot face the simple fact that we do not matter.. If our planet was extinguished tomorrow, the only mark we would leave would be dust, which would be blasted by solar winds. People who believe that the universe has a purpose and that we have a purpose in said universe believe so because they cannot contemplate the fact that they actually do not matter. People like to be liked and like to believe that they are important and that they matter. Hence, to those individuals, the universe must have a purpose. Otherwise, to those individuals, when confronted by their own lack of importance, will find themselves unable to put one foot in front of the other.

Countless universes are said to emanate from Him,

And who has said that?

Link?

 

[Balerion]

If one has preferences, then one's tastes are not random.

That does not follow. Why can't my tastes have been acquired randomly? After all, they are largely a reflection of my experiences. I grew up in a household full of rock music, and a neighborhood full of hip-hop, and my taste in music is appropriately eclectic; I grew up sneaking peeks at dirty magazines featuring slender white girls, and I have retained that preference in women as an adult; as a family, we would spend Sunday nights watching sitcoms on the networks, so is it any surprise that my favorite TV shows today are almost exclusively comedies?

But even if I was genetically predisposed to preferring those things, it wouldn't make the wiring itself any less random. Prefence in no way indicates predestination, or whatever it is you're trying to sell.

And besides, what on earth does that have to do with the randomness of life and death? How would or preferences speak to some design in the how and when of our birth and death?

I'll be waiting for your non-answer.

 

[wynn]

Last time you asked me to share a portion of my own tentative philosophical and spiritual outlook, you didn't even bother to comment on any of the important aspects of it. The fact you're here, now, essentially asking the same question again tells me that in your own mind, you've simply concluded that there was no real substance to it. From that I can reasonably conclude that you believe that it's only profound to me because I'm somehow oblivious to the fact that there's nothing actually profound about it at all. In other words, what you're essentially doing every time you either directly or indirectly present a personal god of some sort as the only thing from which one can legitimately derive any true meaning and purpose, is saying that everyone who doesn't believe that is basically deluding themselves.

What I think is really going on however, at least in terms of your evaluation of what you know of my own metaphysical outlook, is a simple failure to even attempt to properly appreciate it. You can't see the substance in it because you don't really look. It's a lot like the difference between an idealistic teenagers dream of a knight in shining armour, and the reality of an actual relationship. A person in the throws of the former can't help but project it onto the latter. But if you go through life chasing the idealization, believing that it must exist simply because you can imagine such a thing, you wont see the 'magic' in reality itself. And the thing is that when you do, it turns out that it's no less profound than the idealization. As far as I am concerned, it's more so.

Oh. You accuse me of something that you yourself are doing (to me and to others). But apparently, you believe that because you accuse me first, you are right, the innoncent and superior one.

And as usual, you want the upper hand ... and if I don't simply let you have it, then I'm supposed to believe that I am the bad one.

:m:

 

[wynn]

You still didn't answer the question by the way.

Like I said:
Sure, when confronted, many people might deny the existence of such a purpose, as they feel it sounds preposterous, or they give an answer based on an attitude of defensiveness.
Nevertheless, in their daily lives, they act as if the Universe has a purpose. Otherwise, they wouldn't put one foot in front of the other when walking.


It's a false question, designed to bait me and goad me, and you and some others trying to present yourselves as superior to me.

And your proof of this is where exactly?
/.../
You see, I personally feel that individuals who follow the belief system that the universe has a purpose, that they somehow have a place within it and that their existence is important in the grand scheme of things are full of themselves and cannot face the simple fact that we do not matter.. If our planet was extinguished tomorrow, the only mark we would leave would be dust, which would be blasted by solar winds. People who believe that the universe has a purpose and that we have a purpose in said universe believe so because they cannot contemplate the fact that they actually do not matter. People like to be liked and like to believe that they are important and that they matter. Hence, to those individuals, the universe must have a purpose. Otherwise, to those individuals, when confronted by their own lack of importance, will find themselves unable to put one foot in front of the other.

Really, Bells, as if you ever accept your own "lack of importance."

And who has said that?

Link?

Ever heard of God being considered omnipotent and infinite?

 

[wynn]

That does not follow. Why can't my tastes have been acquired randomly? After all, they are largely a reflection of my experiences. I grew up in a household full of rock music, and a neighborhood full of hip-hop, and my taste in music is appropriately eclectic; I grew up sneaking peeks at dirty magazines featuring slender white girls, and I have retained that preference in women as an adult; as a family, we would spend Sunday nights watching sitcoms on the networks, so is it any surprise that my favorite TV shows today are almost exclusively comedies?

But even if I was genetically predisposed to preferring those things, it wouldn't make the wiring itself any less random. Prefence in no way indicates predestination, or whatever it is you're trying to sell.

And besides, what on earth does that have to do with the randomness of life and death? How would or preferences speak to some design in the how and when of our birth and death?

I'll be waiting for your non-answer.

It's not like yesterday, you would say "My favorite food are French fries," and today, you would say "My favorite food is chocolate pudding."

 

[Balerion]

It's not like yesterday, you would say "My favorite food are French fries," and today, you would say "My favorite food is chocolate pudding."

Why wouldn't I? Perhaps today I had the most exquisite chocolate pudding of my life, and my answer changed. Or today I simply changed my mind?

But again, you ignore the key aspects of my post. How would any of this speak to the non-randomness of life and death? How does my preference for food speak against the randomness of life? What about the unequivocally random events, such as car accidents, or chance encounters?

 

[Bells]

Like I said:
Sure, when confronted, many people might deny the existence of such a purpose, as they feel it sounds preposterous, or they give an answer based on an attitude of defensiveness.
Nevertheless, in their daily lives, they act as if the Universe has a purpose. Otherwise, they wouldn't put one foot in front of the other when walking.


It's a false question, designed to bait me and goad me, and you and some others trying to present yourselves as superior to me.

Considering his question and mine were in response to this comment from you:

And what is the alternative?

A Universe that came out of nothing, goes into nothing, for no purpose, and it's all one big nothing.

Your attempt to play the martyr fails. Terribly.

You either believe the universe has a purpose or you do not and have decided to troll.

Really, Bells, as if you ever accept your own "lack of importance."

Of course I have. It's called growing up.

Ever heard of God being considered omnipotent and infinite?

Which speaks nothing of your saying that it "is said countless universes emanate from him".

So who said it? Omnipotent and infinite does not = countless universes spawning out of God. Do you ascribe to a multiple universe theory and can you please provide a link where it is said that countless of universes emanate from God.

But apparently, you believe that because you accuse me first, you are right, the innoncent and superior one.

You seem a tad obsessed with the thought that others are trying to be more superior to you and you keep trying to make yourself out to be a victim of the 'big bad sciforums people'. Is there something you wish to discuss or get off your chest, Wynn?

 

[wynn]

Really, Bells, as if you ever accept your own "lack of importance."

Of course I have. It's called growing up.

Your actions here speak otherwise.
For someone who considers herself to lack importance, you sure act as you are the most important person in the universe.

Which speaks nothing of your saying that it "is said countless universes emanate from him".

So who said it? Omnipotent and infinite does not = countless universes spawning out of God.

And 2x + 2x does not equal 4x.

You seem a tad obsessed with the thought that others are trying to be more superior to you and you keep trying to make yourself out to be a victim of the 'big bad sciforums people'. Is there something you wish to discuss or get off your chest, Wynn?

I freely admit that you are way out of my league.

 

[Rav]

Oh. You accuse me of something that you yourself are doing (to me and to others). But apparently, you believe that because you accuse me first, you are right, the innoncent and superior one.

And as usual, you want the upper hand ... and if I don't simply let you have it, then I'm supposed to believe that I am the bad one.

:m:

In other words, when wynn does the following:

• Insists that nihilism is the only alternative to theism
• Suggests that she has a superior capacity to formulate conceptions of God
• Effectively dismisses any alternative metaphysical view as lacking any real substance

it's not fair that Rav is allowed to respond.

I'm not saying that I don't get stuck into a critical examination of theism sometimes, but when I do I don't complain about the fact that theists are permitted to speak their mind as part of a rigorous defense of their position. I simply respond to the arguments. That's what you're supposed to do when you choose to engage in such discussion.

 

[wynn]

In other words, when wynn does the following:

• Insists that nihilism is the only alternative to theism
• Suggests that she has a superior capacity to formulate conceptions of God
• Effectively dismisses any alternative metaphysical view as lacking any real substance

it's not fair that Rav is allowed to respond.

I'm not saying that I don't get stuck into a critical examination of a theism sometimes, but when I do I don't complain about the fact that theists are permitted to speak their mind as part of a rigorous defense of their position. I simply respond to the arguments. That's what you're supposed to do when you choose to engage in such discussion.

1. Bah. You don't "simply respond to the arguments." You pity theists.


2. Show me, finally, an alternative to theism that is not nihilism.
So far, you've refused to do that.


3. "Suggests that she has a superior capacity to formulate conceptions of God
Effectively dismisses any alternative metaphysical view as lacking any real substance"
You've retained that kind of mindfuck reply from your Christian boot camp?
"People should accept as superior even (and especially) statements which they find repugnant or nonsensical."

Please, rigorously defend your position, by all means. But philosophical and emotional blackmail I will not tolerate.

Of course everyone suggests that they have a superior capacity to formulate conceptions of God, and everyone effectively dismisses any alternative metaphysical view as lacking any real substance.

It's the nature of holding a view as such. If one would not hold oneself as having a superior capacity to formulate conceptions of God, and if one would not effectively dismiss any alternative metaphysical view as lacking any real substance, one couldn't hold a view at all.

"Celebrating our differences" is nonsense, and those who promulgate "celebrating our differences" are the most intolerant of differences.


4. From what you've said so far, it doesn't seem to me that what you want from me is a simple acknowledging that your worldview "is okay too." No, it seems that you want me to deem it as superior - but you refuse to admit or even discuss that this is what you actually want.

 

[Rav]

1. Bah. You don't "simply respond to the arguments." You pity theists.

That's not an example of me "pitying" theists. It is an example of me saying that I think it's a pity that theists tend to look upon the universe as if it is something much less profound than it really is. That's not quite the same thing. But rather than engage in an attempt to properly clarify every comment of that sort that you might be able to dig up, let me just set the record straight. As a general rule, I do not "pity" theists. In fact I have several friends who are theists of one sort or another, good friends in fact, and I neither pity them nor feel superior to them. The dynamic of those relationships does not turn on our respective metaphysical views. We are friends who have many other things in common, and so we simply enjoy each others company.

What you see here, however, between someone like you and me for example, is a dynamic that is built almost entirely on our respective metaphysical views, because those are the terms under which we have chosen to interact. We're here for the primary purpose of discussing religious and philosophical issues. So it's a mistake to try to extrapolate (from that alone) the extent to which certain philosophical stances would actually manifest in one's real-life interactions with others in different settings.

I'll say it one last time. I do not walk around "pitying" anyone who I know to be a theist, and if you think I do, then you're just plain wrong.

2. Show me, finally, an alternative to theism that is not nihilism.
So far, you've refused to do that.

I already did, in another thread, and you basically ignored it. The fact that you still think I'm essentially a nihilist means you didn't even attempt to comprehend the implications of the picture I was painting. Therefore, I'm not inclined to discuss such alternatives with you any further.

3. "Suggests that she has a superior capacity to formulate conceptions of God
Effectively dismisses any alternative metaphysical view as lacking any real substance"
You've retained that kind of mindfuck reply from your Christian boot camp?
"People should accept as superior even (and especially) statements which they find repugnant or nonsensical."

It's the nature of holding a view as such. If one would not hold oneself as having a superior capacity to formulate conceptions of God, and if one would not effectively dismiss any alternative metaphysical view as lacking any real substance, one couldn't hold a view at all.

I wasn't saying that you weren't allowed to make such statements, or hold such views. Everyone does, after all. What I was pointing to is the absurdity of crying foul when someone responds with some of their own.

4. From what you've said so far, it doesn't seem to me that what you want from me is a simple acknowledging that your worldview "is okay too." No, it seems that you want me to deem it as superior - but you refuse to admit that this is what you actually want.

It's certainly true that some part of us wants other people to recognize how truly "special" we are. But once you realize that everyone is in fact pretty much the same in this regard, you're forced to humble yourself a little bit. You realize that you're probably not the most awesome entity in all of existence, and there probably wont be a time when the entire world is forced to recognize it. To continue to believe otherwise is, in my opinion, a sign of emotional and psychological immaturity. The truth is that we're all just human beings struggling to find purpose in our lives.

In other words, I don't believe that I am any more or less "special" than you.

 

[Bells]

Your actions here speak otherwise.
For someone who considers herself to lack importance, you sure act as you are the most important person in the universe.

And what actions would they be?

By ignoring your self importance?

No one is important Wynn and everyone is important. For example, I don't consider you at all in any scheme of things, but I value my children more than my own life. Does that mean they have a purpose in the universe? No. We are all mere blips, an accident and one of pure dumb luck.

Now, you seem to have a strange habit of never answering questions and pretty much acting like a bit of a mentally retentive troll on this forum. If you feel that I am granting myself more importance because I dare question your posts here, then so be it. You are free to believe as you wish. I have absolutely no desire to know what goes on in that twisted little mind of yours.

But when you post in a thread and try to troll it and then try to play the martyr, any sympathy you might have gleaned from anyone here kind of goes out the window.

And 2x + 2x does not equal 4x.

You still did not answer the question.

Can you answer it please and provide the necessary links.

I freely admit that you are way out of my league.

Yes. I, unlike you, am not a sociopath. So whatever league you are in, you are there alone.

 

[Balerion]

And what actions would they be?

By ignoring your self importance?

No one is important Wynn and everyone is important. For example, I don't consider you at all in any scheme of things, but I value my children more than my own life. Does that mean they have a purpose in the universe? No. We are all mere blips, an accident and one of pure dumb luck.

Now, you seem to have a strange habit of never answering questions and pretty much acting like a bit of a mentally retentive troll on this forum. If you feel that I am granting myself more importance because I dare question your posts here, then so be it. You are free to believe as you wish. I have absolutely no desire to know what goes on in that twisted little mind of yours.

But when you post in a thread and try to troll it and then try to play the martyr, any sympathy you might have gleaned from anyone here kind of goes out the window.


You still did not answer the question.

Can you answer it please and provide the necessary links.


Yes. I, unlike you, am not a sociopath. So whatever league you are in, you are there alone.

My only question is, how long is it allowed to go on? 10,708 posts and counting...

 

[wynn]

That's not an example of me "pitying" theists. It is an example of me saying that I think it's a pity that theists tend to look upon the universe as if it is something much less profound than it really is.

And you know what the Universe really is, and you know it better than the theists, eh.

That's not quite the same thing. But rather than engage in an attempt to properly clarify every comment of that sort that you might be able to dig up, let me just set the record straight. As a general rule, I do not "pity" theists. In fact I have several friends who are theists of one sort or another, good friends in fact, and I neither pity them nor feel superior to them.

Because it's not pc to say you do ...

If you believe that "theists tend to look upon the universe as if it is something much less profound than it really is," then you already presume yourself to be superior.

I already did, in another thread, and you basically ignored it. The fact that you still think I'm essentially a nihilist means you didn't even attempt to comprehend the implications of the picture I was painting.

And the fact that you're saying this, suggests that you believe that if I would comprehend what you were saying, I would agree with it and appreciate it; and that the lack of my appreciation is proof that I didn't even try to comprehend it.

I wasn't saying that you weren't allowed to make such statements, or hold such views. Everyone does, after all. What I was pointing to is the absurdity of crying foul when someone responds with some of their own.

You keep crying foul all along.
:shrug:

It's certainly true that some part of us wants other people to recognize how truly "special" we are. But once you realize that everyone is in fact pretty much the same in this regard, you're forced to humble yourself a little bit. You realize that you're probably not the most awesome entity in all of existence, and there probably wont be a time when the entire world is forced to recognize it. To continue to believe otherwise is, in my opinion, a sign of emotional and psychological immaturity. The truth is that we're all just human beings struggling to find purpose in our lives.

In other words, I don't believe that I am any more or less "special" than you.

That's pc liberal nonsense.

One must be even aggressive in one's pursuit of truth, lest one fall prey to mistakes and conmen.

While such aggressiveness can seem like immature, overbearing pride, it's not automatically that.

The pursuit of truth isn't a lovey-dovey sewing circle and we're not exchanging notes on a pink background with fancy fonts.

Politically correct skepticism about one's own position may perhaps create a more tolerant-seeming atmosphere and create an illusion of friendliness and harmony, but it isn't going to get anyone to clarity.