Morality Without God

[Saturnine Pariah]

For years I had read up on the history surrounding the bible and found shocking almost copious amount of distasteful, inhuman acts scattered throughout the pages of the old testament, however the top theist argument would be “ You took it out of context” or “ You miss-translated the text” Really? To sum up what I have learned I found this provocative video that sums up the hypocrisy of a “moral” and “just” God
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCovYF51qHE

1. Carbon Dating isn't accurate enough to determine the age of the earth or fossils... then its a good thing that we have many other methods of highly accurate radiometric dating that ALL tell us the earth is 4.54 Billion years old
2. Proving evolution... prove magical space fairies exist.
3. If we came from Monkeys, why do monkeys still exist? The American colonies came from Europe... why does Europe still exist?
4. Human Eye is too complex if not intelligently designed... sure... just ask the octopus.
5. Atheism is a religion... just like not-smoking is a habit.
6. Scientist X is a Christian... so what? Isaac Newton thought he could turn lead into gold with magic.
7. Life too unlikely if left to CHANCE... as opposed to magical space fairies?
8. This is a Christian nation... since when?
9. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics... Explain the other laws of thermodynamics (the 2nd law only applies to closed systems with no energy or matter coming in or out.)
10. Hitler was an atheist. That's funny. Hitler didn't seem to think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSxgnu3Hww8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfZFsXfCy6s&feature=relmfu

 

[Jan Ardena]

Saturnine Pariah,

For years I had read up on the history surrounding the bible and found shocking almost copious amount of distasteful, inhuman acts scattered throughout the pages of the old testament, however the top theist argument would be “ You took it out of context” or “ You miss-translated the text” Really? To sum up what I have learned I found this provocative video that sums up the hypocrisy of a “moral” and “just” God
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCovYF51qHE

You are aware that there were other humanoid species on the planet, and they mated with earthlings. The seducer who seduced eve was described as a serpent who was more subtle, as an example.

If you read the Qur'an, there are dialogues which take place between God, Adam, and other beings prior to genesis. Are you aware of that? The conclusion of the dialogue was that Iblis (the satan) was casted out of the kingdom, with the intention of corrupting most of Adam descendents.

The bible itself doesn't really give an account of ''God'', or what ''God'' is, and what we can glean from it, is clearly for a particular time, place, and circumstance, and people of that conscious dispositiion. I think you should look into who and what God is, and the Bhagavad Gita is by far the best book for that job.


jan.

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

Saturnine Pariah,




You are aware that there were other humanoid species on the planet, and they mated with earthlings. The seducer who seduced eve was described as a serpent who was more subtle, as an example.

If you read the Qur'an, there are dialogues which take place between God, Adam, and other beings prior to genesis. Are you aware of that? The conclusion of the dialogue was that Iblis (the satan) was casted out of the kingdom, with the intention of corrupting most of Adam descendents.



jan.

:facepalm: Is the only way i can express i how i feel right now after reading your post.

 

[wynn]

For years I had read up on the history surrounding the bible and found shocking almost copious amount of distasteful, inhuman acts scattered throughout the pages of the old testament, however the top theist argument would be “ You took it out of context” or “ You miss-translated the text” Really? To sum up what I have learned I found this provocative video that sums up the hypocrisy of a “moral” and “just” God

And what is the alternative?

A Universe that came out of nothing, goes into nothing, for no purpose, and it's all one big nothing.

 

[Motor Daddy]

And what is the alternative?

A Universe that came out of nothing, goes into nothing, for no purpose, and it's all one big nothing.

The universe didn't come from nothing, and will not go into nothing.

The concept of nothing is not valid. Give me one shred of evidence of this concept you call "nothing."

The universe is an object, like a ball, or a drop of water, or a gas giant planet. Do you know what an object is? Objects do not come from "nothing."

The universe came from a larger object, like the earth came from the sun. Our universe orbits the object it came from and is getting further away from that object, like the earth orbits the sun and is getting further away.

Please explain your concept of "nothing."

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

And what is the alternative?

A Universe that came out of nothing, goes into nothing, for no purpose, and it's all one big nothing.

Why must you think that EVERTHING should have unique purposes? Why? Does every fucking thing need a distinct, unique, irreplaceable, and non-coincidental reason for existence? Or is it that you feel if the entire universe has no purpose then your meager, insignificant existence would also have no purpose? That your world view would be altered…life is random…death is random I’ve learned to accept that. The purpose of life...not really much of definable purpose, it just existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[wynn]

Why must you think that EVERTHING should have unique purposes? Why? Does every fucking thing need a distinct, unique, irreplaceable, and non-coincidental reason for existence? Or is it that you feel if the entire universe has no purpose then your meager, insignificant existence would also have no purpose? That your world view would be altered…life is random…death is random I’ve learned to accept that. The purpose of life...not really much of definable purpose, it just existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you're just saying that, but don't actually believe it.

And you certainly don't behave as if you would really believe that life and death would be random. The moment you show to have preferences (such as preferring to live in a clean house as opposed to a dirty one) is the moment you show that you do not believe in randomness.

 

[wynn]

Please explain your concept of "nothing."

It's those who believe that first there was nothing and then something came out of this nothing that have some explaining to do.

 

[Balerion]

I think you're just saying that, but don't actually believe it.

And you certainly don't behave as if you would really believe that life and death would be random. The moment you show to have preferences (such as preferring to live in a clean house as opposed to a dirty one) is the moment you show that you do not believe in randomness.

What does preference have to do with randomness?

 

[wynn]

What does preference have to do with randomness?

If one has preferences, then one's tastes are not random.

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

I think you're just saying that, but don't actually believe it.

And you certainly don't behave as if you would really believe that life and death would be random. The moment you show to have preferences (such as preferring to live in a clean house as opposed to a dirty one) is the moment you show that you do not believe in randomness.

You didn't really answer my question...if the universe didn't have any objective purpose or subjective purpose..how would that impact your outlook at life? In addition do you personally know me? Do you know how i behave beyond the confines of this internet forum? That is the sign of assumptation base on how much information you think you know or have observed on me. Certain parts of life are beyond your control those aspects of life are random, You or I decideing to perform any action requires multiple different causalities or paulsible multiverse outcomes those outcomes or results are random, however the perception or conception of those random occurance can be interpreted by are brains as a " choice" or " result" of the information via
stimuli. As whole the universe does have a thin line of order via the four naturally occuring forces that govern matter, energy, etc.

When you toss a coin, you can't tell which side the coin will land. The odds will be close to 50% for each side of the coin. Yet if you could measure the initial velocity the initial angle the mass and the shape of the coin, you could get a pretty accurate answer from a simulation. What has changed? You have now additional information. The completely random system is now perceived as almost deterministic system.
The universe is random in every subset of the universe, but deterministic as a whole.

The universe is random in every subset of the universe, since we can’t isolate a subset of the universe from the rest of it and we can't predict the external affects on the subset.
This means that the universe is deterministic and not random.
Einstein expressed this idea with the phrase: 'God does not throw dice'.

Since we can't predict many events, we can refer the universe as random.

 

[wynn]

You didn't really answer my question...if the universe didn't have any objective purpose or subjective purpose..how would that impact your outlook at life?

This is an imponderable question.

In addition do you personally know me?

I don't have to. There are things you freely offer here that to me suggest the points I've made.

however the perception or conception of those random occurance can be interpreted by are brains as a " choice" or " result" of the information via
stimuli. As whole the universe does have a thin line of order via the four naturally occuring forces that govern matter, energy, etc.

When you toss a coin, you can't tell which side the coin will land. The odds will be close to 50% for each side of the coin. Yet if you could measure the initial velocity the initial angle the mass and the shape of the coin, you could get a pretty accurate answer from a simulation. What has changed? You have now additional information. The completely random system is now perceived as almost deterministic system.

Sure.

The universe is random in every subset of the universe, but deterministic as a whole.

The universe is random in every subset of the universe, since we can’t isolate a subset of the universe from the rest of it and we can't predict the external affects on the subset.
This means that the universe is deterministic and not random.
Einstein expressed this idea with the phrase: 'God does not throw dice'.

Since we can't predict many events, we can refer the universe as random.

Do you believe we are an integral part of the Universe, or not?
Do you believe that the Universe could do just as well without humans, or you in particular?

 

[Bells]

And what is the alternative?

A Universe that came out of nothing, goes into nothing, for no purpose, and it's all one big nothing.

Since you didn't answer his question the first time, I'll ask it this time in the hope that you will answer it.

Why does the universe have to have a purpose for you?

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

I don't have to. There are things you freely offer here that to me suggest the points I've made.




Do you believe we are an integral part of the Universe, or not?
Do you believe that the Universe could do just as well without humans, or you in particular?

List out those "points" in chronological order
Humans in comparison to the vast complexities and age of this universe are insignificant. Our existence makes very, very, little difference as a whole, this planet or any other would continue on without us and not even notice our absence. Just look at the other planets and celestial bodies in this solar system alone not even the entire galaxy, all the other planets go one without any forms of life just fine.

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

This is an imponderable question

Said the mute man to the deaf girl who signed it to the blind man.

 

[Rav]

And what is the alternative?

A Universe that came out of nothing, goes into nothing, for no purpose, and it's all one big nothing.

It's those who believe that first there was nothing and then something came out of this nothing that have some explaining to do.

Actually it often appears as if you yourself are making the positive claim that the only alternative to an anthropomorphic conception of a 'first cause', is "one big nothing". If that is what pushes you in the direction of theism, then your leanings are biased by a false dichotomy.

 

[wynn]

Since you didn't answer his question the first time, I'll ask it this time in the hope that you will answer it.

Why does the universe have to have a purpose for you?

Let's not be silly.

The only people who really believe that the Universe has no purpose are those poor chaps in white padded cells.

Everyone else believes that the Universe has a purpose.


Sure, when confronted, many people might deny the existence of such a purpose, as they feel it sounds preposterous, or they give an answer based on an attitude of defensiveness. Nevertheless, in their daily lives, they act as if the Universe has a purpose. Otherwise, they wouldn't put one foot in front of the other when walking.

 

[wynn]

Actually it often appears as if you yourself are making the positive claim that the only alternative to an anthropomorphic conception of a 'first cause', is "one big nothing". If that is what pushes you in the direction of theism, then your leanings are biased by a false dichotomy.

My views of God are not as limited as yours, apparently.

Why couldn't God be different things to different species, or different people? If God loves all living beings and wishes them well, then, surely, God will approach them in ways these beings can understand, whatever form they are in. Human, demigod, animal, plant.

It's you who is the implicit anthropomorphist, even if you are so by the way you deny or relativize God's existence or relevance.


Why couldn't God be in the apparent form of a man, a text, an animal, a force?
Countless universes are said to emanate from Him, and yet some believe He is supposed to be just one thing or the other, for all times and places? I don't think so.

 

[wynn]

List out those "points" in chronological order

I said that you have preferences, and that you don't really believe in randomness, even if you say so.

You couldn't be here, posting, if you wouldn't have preferences.

Humans in comparison to the vast complexities and age of this universe are insignificant. Our existence makes very, very, little difference as a whole, this planet or any other would continue on without us and not even notice our absence. Just look at the other planets and celestial bodies in this solar system alone not even the entire galaxy, all the other planets go one without any forms of life just fine.

I guess that's the atheistic solution: No man, no problem.

 

[Rav]

My views of God are not as limited as yours, apparently.

Why couldn't God be different things to different species, or different people? If God loves all living beings and wishes them well, then, surely, God will approach them in ways these beings can understand, whatever form they are in. Human, demigod, animal, plant.

It's you who is the implicit anthropomorphist, even if you are so by the way you deny or relativize God's existence or relevance.


Why couldn't God be in the apparent form of a man, a text, an animal, a force?
Countless universes are said to emanate from Him, and yet some believe He is supposed to be just one thing or the other, for all times and places? I don't think so.

Huh? My point was simply that you appear to believe that one's world view can only possibly come down to two choices: the existence of some sort of God, or meaninglessness derived from nothingness destined for pointlessness.

If you want to see who can formulate the most diverse and profound conceptions of God, perhaps we can do that in another thread.