Mohammed Bear vs Gitmo

[S.A.M.]

So the 54 year old teacher is going home in 15 days

She was in a Third World country with a military dictatorship and Islamic fundies calling for her execution, but a trial was conducted and after 15 days for a non-crime she will go home.

Now everyone who reads a newspaper knows that prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo were "simply rounded up" are ignored and left to protest and commit passive suicide for how many YEARS now?

An al-Jazeera journalist captured in Afghanistan six years ago and sent to Guantanamo Bay is close to becoming the fifth detainee at the US naval base to take his own life, according to a medical report written by a team of British and American psychiatrists

Sami al-Haj, a Sudanese national, is 250 days into a hunger strike which he began in protest over his detention without charge or trial in January 2002. But British and American doctors, who have been given exclusive access to his interview notes, say there is very strong evidence that he has given up his fight for life, experiencing what doctors recognise as “passive suicide”, a condition suffered by female victims of Darfur.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2956428.ece

Anyone know or care whats happening to them?

Why isn't this plastered over the media and blogs?

Where is the pressure on the government to act?

 

[ranthi]

Personally, and this will sound heartless...but nobody told him not to eat. Unless the food is physically being kept from him, this is his choice. I suppose it is like a patients choice to refuse treatment. Although sad that he thinks that starvation suicide is necessary for some reason or another, there is no moral obligation on my part to intervene.

 

[S.A.M.]

Personally, and this will sound heartless...but nobody told him not to eat. Unless the food is physically being kept from him, this is his choice. I suppose it is like a patients choice to refuse treatment. Although sad that he thinks that starvation suicide is necessary for some reason or another, there is no moral obligation on my part to intervene.

I was talking about the illegal detainment but your response is very interesting.

is 250 days into a hunger strike which he began in protest over his detention without charge or trial in January 2002.

5 years of detention without cause in a place where torture is routine may be considered cause for protest, don't you think?

 

[ranthi]

I was talking about the illegal detainment but your response is very interesting.



5 years of detention without cause in a place where torture is routine may be considered cause for protest, don't you think?

There is never ANY reason for someone to take their own life. And as far as torture being commonplace...ever heard this analogy? maybe I can communicate it correctly...

You could be the greatest bridge designer that ever existed. Built hundreds or even thousands of succesfull bridges...envy of thousands of engineers. But that 1 time you design a bridge that collapses, from that point on you are known as the "guy who designed the bridge that fell and killed people".

 

[S.A.M.]

There is never ANY reason for someone to take their own life. And as far as torture being commonplace...ever heard this analogy? maybe I can communicate it correctly...

You could be the greatest bridge designer that ever existed. Built hundreds or even thousands of succesfull bridges...envy of thousands of engineers. But that 1 time you design a bridge that collapses, from that point on you are known as the "guy who designed the bridge that fell and killed people".

Ah so you're saying people randomly picked up and detained without cause are not worthy of attention. And a few tortured here and there is just collateral damage.

 

[ranthi]

Ah so you're saying people randomly picked up and detained without cause are not worthy of attention. And a few tortured here and there is just collateral damage.

Im saying that maybe the situation is being over-exaggerated. I accept that sometimes people get lost in the system. Does this make them not worthy of attention? nah..but does it mean the whole system is ready for an overhaul? of course not...

 

[S.A.M.]

Im saying that maybe the situation is being over-exaggerated. I accept that sometimes people get lost in the system. Does this make them not worthy of attention? nah..but does it mean the whole system is ready for an overhaul? of course not...

Ah so you support a system where people are randomly picked up and detained for 5-6 years without charge. And even 250 days of a hunger strike is not sufficient to allow the case to be brought to trial. Pictures of torture taken by guards are an exaggeration.

The Sudanese really should learn how the western justice system works.

Standard operating procedure

 

[sandy]

No one was picked randomly. They are all terror suspects. We have better things to do than "randomly" pick up innocent people. We don't randomly "torture" either. After having diseased human feces thrown on you, having some criminal slime threaten to saw your head off, and after enduring weeks of verbal/physical abuse, you just might spit back at some POS that spit at you too.

As far as the Mohammed bear, that was a very stupid thing to do. We all know the outcome of insulting Islam.

One evangelical guy has named a stuffed pig "Mohammed" in protest of the attack on the woman. I wonder what will happen to him? If anyone named a stuffed animal "Jesus", I can guarantee no/not many Christians would care.

 

[S.A.M.]

Strange, the commander at Abu Ghraib disagrees.

Janis Karpinski, the commander of Abu Ghraib demoted for her lack of insight regarding the abuse, estimated later that 90% of detainees in the prison were innocent.[6]

As does the Defense department statistics

A new and statistical report, authored and released by Seton Hall Law Professor Mark Denbeaux and attorney Joshua Denbeaux, counsel to two of the detainees at Guantanamo, contains the first objective analysis of the background of those held at Guantanamo. The report is based entirely on data supplied by the Defense Department, and is intended to provide "a more detailed picture of who the Guantanamo detainees are, how they ended up there, and the purported bases for their enemy combatant designation."

The report, available here (pdf), finds that fewer than half of the 517 detainees whose histories were reviewed have been accused of hostile acts.

 

[ranthi]

Ah so you support a system where people are randomly picked up and detained for 5-6 years without charge. And even 250 days of a hunger strike is not sufficient to allow the case to be brought to trial. Pictures of torture taken by guards are an exaggeration.

The Sudanese really should learn how the western justice system works.

Standard operating procedure

Ok, let me ask you..if you have the information. Of what percentage of the current detainee population in gitmo is or has been held for 5-6 years...tortured and/or starving themselves?

 

[S.A.M.]

Ok, let me ask you..if you have the information. Of what percentage of the current detainee population in gitmo is or has been held for 5-6 years...tortured and/or starving themselves?

Thats irrelevant. They are illegally detained by the government of the USA.

Holding them without charge or trial is a crime.

 

[madanthonywayne]

So the 54 year old teacher is going home in 15 days

She was in a Third World country with a military dictatorship and Islamic fundies calling for her execution, but a trial was conducted and after 15 days for a non-crime she will go home.

Now everyone who reads a newspaper knows that prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo were "simply rounded up" are ignored and left to protest and commit passive suicide for how many YEARS now?

The treatment of suspected terrorists and the treatment of someone suspected of giving a Teddy Bear the wrong name are hardly comparable situations.

 

[S.A.M.]

The treatment of suspected terrorists and the treatment of someone suspected of giving a Teddy Bear the wrong name are hardly comparable situations.

Are they suspected terrorists? How do you know?

What would you say, if the Sudanese had kidnapped and held your son for 5 years without charge or trial?

What if this was you?

Al Laithi's detainee ID number is 287. He was born on October 28, 1956 in Shubrakass Egypt.[1]

Prior to the Invasion of Afghanistan Al Laithi was teaching English and Arabic at Kabul University.

During his stay at Camp Delta Al Laithi was rendered a paraplegic.[2] Al Laithi says shortly after his arrival in Cuba, during a beating administered in the prison hospital, a guard threw him on the floor, and stomped on his back. He says he has been in constant pain ever since.

Al Laithi says the beating crushed two of his vertebrae, confining him to a wheelchair. He says he believes that the prison authorities denied him medical care that would have prevented him being crippled.

Al Laithi is one of the small percentage of Guantanamo detainees who, during his Combatant Status Review Tribunal, was determined not to have been an "enemy combatant" after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Al_Laithi

 

[ranthi]

Thats irrelevant. They are illegally detained by the government of the USA.

Holding them without charge or trial is a crime.

Not at the moment it isnt a crime. And their innocence will be determined at their trials or beforehand (in some cases). As someone stated before...we dont just randomly pick up people to detain...it just doesnt happen anymore. There is usually some reason. Considering that I dont know the circumstances as to why each and every person at gitmo was considered a terrorist suspect, I cant address any instance specifically.

 

[S.A.M.]

Not at the moment it isnt a crime. And their innocence will be determined at their trials or beforehand (in some cases). As someone stated before...we dont just randomly pick up people to detain...it just doesnt happen anymore. There is usually some reason. Considering that I dont know the circumstances as to why each and every person at gitmo was considered a terrorist suspect, I cant address any instance specifically.

Please address the example I gave above, repeated here. It is a specific instance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Al_Laithi

Al Laithi's detainee ID number is 287. He was born on October 28, 1956 in Shubrakass Egypt.[1]

Prior to the Invasion of Afghanistan Al Laithi was teaching English and Arabic at Kabul University.

During his stay at Camp Delta Al Laithi was rendered a paraplegic.[2] Al Laithi says shortly after his arrival in Cuba, during a beating administered in the prison hospital, a guard threw him on the floor, and stomped on his back. He says he has been in constant pain ever since.

Al Laithi says the beating crushed two of his vertebrae, confining him to a wheelchair. He says he believes that the prison authorities denied him medical care that would have prevented him being crippled.

Al Laithi is one of the small percentage of Guantanamo detainees who, during his Combatant Status Review Tribunal, was determined not to have been an "enemy combatant" after all.

Is this a crime?

 

[madanthonywayne]

Are they suspected terrorists? How do you know?

I guess I don't. Not 100%. But that's what the facility was created for, isn't it? What's the point of rounding up random people and holding them? It's counter productive.

What would you say, if the Sudanese had kidnapped and held your son for 5 years without charge or trial?

I'd say it's time to invade the Sudanese.

 

[S.A.M.]

I guess I don't. Not 100%. But that's what the facility was created for, isn't it? What's the point of rounding up random people and holding them? It's counter productive.
I'd say it's time to invade the Sudanese.

So what is your opinion about the people being held there?

And why are Americans silent and laid back about this?

Would they be silent if it was Americans being held?

 

[ranthi]

Please address the example I gave above, repeated here. It is a specific instance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Al_Laithi



Is this a crime?

Ok, I have read about it and an address it. He was not randomly picked up and detained. There were reasons, as stated on the wiki page you gave me that he was sent to gitmo to confirm his innocence. As for his injury..who can say? Its his word and the soldiers at gitmo's word. Either could be right and without evidence to the contrary, I would have to accept those at gitmo's word. I do know that lawsuits abusers arent confined to only the US. Everyone wants to be in the US....everyone wants to easy money that CAN come from living here compared to their home countries, and Im sure the news about how easy it is to get money from using our justice system is not only confined to our borders.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ok, I have read about it and an address it. He was not randomly picked up and detained. There were reasons, as stated on the wiki page you gave me that he was sent to gitmo to confirm his innocence. As for his injury..who can say? Its his word and the soldiers at gitmo's word. Either could be right and without evidence to the contrary, I would have to accept those at gitmo's word. I do know that lawsuits abusers arent confined to only the US. Everyone wants to be in the US....everyone wants to easy money that CAN come from living here compared to their home countries, and Im sure the news about how easy it is to get money from using our justice system is not only confined to our borders.

Considering he was a lecturer in a university, was innocent, was detained and has been found innocent, who is responsible? And you think paraplegia is a "way to get easy money"? Are you completely nuts?

And for numbers upto 2005:

The USA has detained approximately 70,000 people outside United States sovereign territory since 11 September 2001. More than 10,000 are believed to remain in direct US custody, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantánamo, and undisclosed locations. An unknown number of those, who were in the direct custody of the USA but transferred to the custody of other governments, are believed to remain in the custody of those governments (including Yemen, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia).

Still others are believed to be held without charge or trial in other countries at the behest of the USA or with its knowledge and access. These countries include Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Yemen. They are believed to number in the hundreds, possibly thousands.

To date, no-one held outside the sovereign territory of the USA has been tried or convicted of any criminal offence. Four people have been charged and are awaiting trial by military commission in Guantánamo Bay.

According to official figures -- compiled by the Associated Press news agency based on information received from the US military, navy, CIA and Justice Department -- more than 100 people have died in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. At least 27 of the deaths were the result of suspected or confirmed homicides, according to the US Army in March 2005 (United States Army Criminal Investigation Command press release, 25 March 2005).

http://news.amnesty.org/pages/usa-faq-news-eng

 

[madanthonywayne]

So what is your opinion about the people being held there?

How can I know? I've heard some things, like the story you posted, that sound bad. Are they true? Are they isolated incidents? Unless I had access to all the files of the detainee's, how can I say they're being held unjustly?

We're at war. POW's are held until the cessation of hostilities, without a trial. And these guys are worse than POW's. They're "unlawful combatants"

And why are Americans silent and laid back about this?

Because we're at war and are wllling to give the military the benefit of the doubt during wartime.

Would they be silent if it was Americans being held?

Of course not.