Mississippi Republicans and Miscegenation

Remembering Alvar Nuñez

Bells said:

And then he goes on to talk about a solution. Equality and how Republicans believe in true equality and how Democrats are the true racists..

There needs to one standard for all. The liberal dual standard creates the impression, without all this cheating, these other groups could not create an illusion of equality. I don't believe that liberal racist conclusion. Only the Dems think that way. Repulicans would prefer all have the same rules since they believe all are equal.

Equality for whom exactly?

Has he forgotten that the survey was of Republicans who believe inter-racial marriage should be illegal?

This is actually a fairly common argument among American conservatives. And, to be fair, it is a particularly naked and acute example, but that's a matter of tact. You know, like sometimes you absolutely have to fart, and the question is to let it rip in company or be surreptitious in venting your pollution. And, quite like flatulence, it often stinks less if you just let it bark like a gecko.

The underlying premise is that the only fair, non-racist thing to do is to allow racism to flourish, exploit, and victimize.

It goes kind of like this: Yes, we know that the terrible history of bad mistakes made by good people trying their best ended up with a result that looked racist. And racism is terrible. That's why we shouldn't do anything to fix the situation. Programs designed to raise minorities out of bad conditions are still racially/ethnically oriented, which is why they are bad. Because all racism is bad. Therefore, the only just thing to do is to stop trying to fix the problem.

Some might also make the point that this argument is put forward by people who also reject the non-ethnic, non-racial solution. And in that light, we see that it is a class issue more than anything else. There are plenty, today, who actually resent that class and race issues overlap, because they end up being viewed as racist, which is terrible, when all they really are is classist, which is ... less terrible.

In the end, it's probably subconscious, or even unconscious to a certain degree.

Abstractly: Imagine that in our society, you have wealth that equals 10 times your living necessity. I have wealth that equals 1. The way our society is structured, it is most likely that your children will have 15-20 apiece, while my child will have <1. Somebody decides that this is problematic, and sets out to equalize the situation somewhat.

At the end of that effort, my grandchildren have wealth that equals 5-6 times living necessity. Your grandchildren will still have 15-20. Maybe even a bit more, like 22 or 25 times living necessity.

What is unacceptable, then, to your grandchildren is a matter of proportions. It isn't enough to simply have more. If their wealth equals 25 times living necessity, they are only 4-5 times as wealthy as my grandchildren. Back in your day, you were ten times as wealthy as me.

The only acceptable outcome for your grandchildren, then, would be if their wealth equaled 50-60 times living necessity, so that they could still be ten times as wealthy as other people.

That's the underlying equality of various conservative laments. They don't want equality. Their worldview is, fundamentally, competitive. People can only achieve their potential through fighting with one another.

So the idea that anything should disrupt their competitive advantage is bad. And if that happens to fall along racial or ethnic lines, of course they're going to fight to keep their perceived advantage, and how dare you suggest that makes them racist. After all, you're the racist for wanting to make people equal.

That equality violates their expectation of a competitive environment. The fact that equality must at some point address questions of race and ethnicity only means that equality itself is a racist idea.

Thus, we come back to black history month, or whatever. If we don't have an equal celebration of white power, the white advantage, such as it is, will erode. If white people have x advantage over black people, maybe in five years it will be x/2, or 2x/3, or something less than x. And if white people have to give up that advantage in order for black people to be equal, well, you're a racist for saying so. The only just solution is that X[sub]w[/sub] remains proportionally greater than X[sub]m[/sub]—that white people retain a certain advantage over ethnic minorities. It's the only real, fair equality, you know.

I would also note as a related side issue that in the past some have criticized me for not extending enough sympathy to those I disagree with. I would hope people understand the problem with asking me, such as it is, to write the opposition's argument. That is, if anyone who actually believes that black history month is a gross injustice against white people would like to step up and explain it in similar detail, I'm quite sure the argument will read considerably differently.

Furthermore, I would suggest that perhaps we ought to have a white history month in which schools celebrate the accomplishments of Columbus, Cromwell, Hitler, and others. I would love to see the comparative essays in the Euro-American Perspectives 101 final: Identify and explain the differences between Columbus' outlook on indigenous peoples in the Americas and that of Cabeza de Vaca. How have these outlooks influenced later generations?

It would, I admit, be interesting to see how the culture dealt with such a straightforward proposition. After all, the outlook that said, "Whoa! Wait a minute, these are people," is the one that lost. And for good reason: Look at what we have built in America. If heroes like Columbus had been overcome by sniveling, wimpy liberals like Cabeza de Vaca, we'd all be eating Vichy cheese. Or rice. Or drinking vodka. Or fill in the blank. I'm not sure who would have taken us over and made us into a nation of their prison bitches.

Of course, if Columbus' convenient cruelty hadn't won our philosophical hearts, such as it is, nobody can promise that there would have been Nazis, or a Pearl Harbor raid, or any evil Soviets to have a Cold War with.

It's a complete mess.

Just remember, though, that at its heart, the outlook demands that everyone and everything be in competition with one another. And in the end, what they're telling people is, essentially, that, "Your right to live through this says nothing about my right to win."

And anything else, to these people, is simply unjust.
 
"States rights" is not a libertarian organizing principle.

Probably the interesting question these days is whether "corporate rights" counts as such a principle. Tends to divide the "libertarians" into hostile camps, that one.
 
The underlying premise is that the only fair, non-racist thing to do is to allow racism to flourish, exploit, and victimize.

Actually, that's more of a (vital, desired) corrolary - the basic premise is the wrong-but-superficially-appealling idea that discrimination and racism are the same thing. Hence, efforts to fix racism are "reverse racism" because they involve discrimination, etc.

If one can make the dictinction between racism (the belief that (some) races are inherently better or worse than others) and discrimination (including a person's race as a factor in decisions that affect them) - and present the corollary that discrimination can be anti-racist - then that whole house of cards comes down pretty quickly.

Just remember, though, that at its heart, the outlook demands that everyone and everything be in competition with one another. And in the end, what they're telling people is, essentially, that, "Your right to live through this says nothing about my right to win."

And anything else, to these people, is simply unjust.

To the types that I've seen be honest about it - Milton Friedman as interviewed in The One Percent, for example - it's pretty much naked social Darwinism. They genuinely believe that, in the long run, society as a whole is better off leaving its "weaker" parts to die, and focussing on ensuring that its "stronger" parts flourish as much as possible. This isn't so much an argument for justice, as much as utility - to the extent it's justified, it's via the supposition that the the poorest portions of society ultimately end up better off since the entire society has advanced more than it would otherwise. And never mind that said stratum of society exists in a constant state of being ground down and eliminated - at least the poor get cell phones out of the deal, right? All of which is pretty easily recognizable as the standard Ayn Rand lionization of aristocracy with producerism substituted for religious sanction.
 
The Poo Factor

Quadraphonics said:

Hence, efforts to fix racism are "reverse racism" because they involve discrimination, etc.

If one can make the dictinction between racism (the belief that (some) races are inherently better or worse than others) and discrimination (including a person's race as a factor in decisions that affect them) - and present the corollary that discrimination can be anti-racist - then that whole house of cards comes down pretty quickly.

I keep looking for some metaphor that isn't insanely insulting for its simplicity.

For instance, I understand that a bunch of people (i.e., racists) have been, for lack of better, flinging poo all over the place.

Now that it's time to clean up their mess, they are upset that they should clean it up, not because poo all over the place is good, but poo itself is dirty, and it's unfair that they should have to handle poo at all.

I keep thinking there has to be something more subtle to it than that, but they don't want to have to touch poo in order to clean it up, despite the fact that they will be handling poo in the future as they fling more of it around.

So if I think they're pushing shit for argument ....
 
Sounds about right. Fucking hick racists.

~String

Not all hicks are racist. We like fucking hicks though. Yeah way . I use to be a Repubican . Now I just don't Know ! Fence sitter I guess . Neither agenda appeals to Me. Nanny state control or Corporate control . Hum I just can't seem to pick one
 
(Something, something, Burt Ward)

Madanthonywayne said:

As if the Mississippi poll wasn't bad enough, check out this ad from the Alabama Republican primary (the actual ad is at the beginning of the video, Bill Maher then goes on to create a couple more ads lampooning the first one.)

That situation reminds me of a Mark Steel joke ... I just can't remember which lecture it was from. But he made a point about a European election in which the candidates were touting their scientific credentials, or, at least, pandering their politics to science and technology as a means of creating jobs and securing the economy. And then he pointed to the American election, where the presidential candidates were arguing over who prayed to Jesus more.

Why are beavers building dams natural, but humans building skyscrapers un-natural?

Believe it or not, religion. I know that's not the answer people really want to hear, but especially when we get into monotheism, part of the point is to become more like God, and less like the nature He created.

Rhetorically, there is practical merit in marking the difference between something that occurs naturally without our specific intervention and something that we manufacture. But you are correct. In the end, even if our next evolutionary step is to become cybernetically augmented until we're all just robots or computer programs running around the Universe, whether that state is natural or artificial will have everything to do with perspective and inclination. To you or me, it would look insanely artificial. But to nature itself? What nature—including humankind—does to itself is eventually natural.

Going back to Chimpkin's point, well, honestly, I don't disagree with your context, but neither do I see the connection. Maybe I should have stopped at the bit about religion.
 
Actually, that's more of a (vital, desired) corrolary - the basic premise is the wrong-but-superficially-appealling idea that discrimination and racism are the same thing. Hence, efforts to fix racism are "reverse racism" because they involve discrimination, etc.

If one can make the dictinction between racism (the belief that (some) races are inherently better or worse than others) and discrimination (including a person's race as a factor in decisions that affect them) - and present the corollary that discrimination can be anti-racist - then that whole house of cards comes down pretty quickly.
Whether you discriminate against a minority because you're a member of the KKK, or against a non-minority and call it "anti-racist", it's still race based discrimination and one is just as bad as the other.

That situation reminds me of a Mark Steel joke ... I just can't remember which lecture it was from. But he made a point about a European election in which the candidates were touting their scientific credentials, or, at least, pandering their politics to science and technology as a means of creating jobs and securing the economy. And then he pointed to the American election, where the presidential candidates were arguing over who prayed to Jesus more.
I have absolutely nothing against religion. I think it is a source of comfort and strength for many people and that, whether God exists or not, most people need to believe in something. If not a normal mainstream religion, many end up in some kind of absolute nut job cult in which they castrate themselves and then commit suicide expecting to wake up on a UFO.

That being said, it's rather embarrassing to see people vying for leadership positions in our country acting as if they were running for the position of church deacon.
Believe it or not, religion. I know that's not the answer people really want to hear, but especially when we get into monotheism, part of the point is to become more like God, and less like the nature He created.
Interesting take. If that is the origion of the man nature dichotomy, it's a good example of how religious ideas influence the thinking of even the most irreligious among us.
Rhetorically, there is practical merit in marking the difference between something that occurs naturally without our specific intervention and something that we manufacture. But you are correct. In the end, even if our next evolutionary step is to become cybernetically augmented until we're all just robots or computer programs running around the Universe, whether that state is natural or artificial will have everything to do with perspective and inclination. To you or me, it would look insanely artificial. But to nature itself? What nature—including humankind—does to itself is eventually natural.

Going back to Chimpkin's point, well, honestly, I don't disagree with your context, but neither do I see the connection. Maybe I should have stopped at the bit about religion
I believe he was lamenting the fact that he was un-natural due to the various medical interventions he requires. My feeling on the matter is that God ( or nature ) gave us intelligence, so any tool, medical treatment, or whatever else we come up with is as natural to us as using it's teeth and claws is to a lion.
 
madanthony said:
Whether you discriminate against a minority because you're a member of the KKK, or against a non-minority and call it "anti-racist", it's still race based discrimination and one is just as bad as the other.
?
Forcing the local fire department to stop screening out all black candidates, and hire some instead, is just as bad as the terrorism of the KKK?
 
Free Market Solutions

Iceaura said:

Forcing the local fire department to stop screening out all black candidates, and hire some instead, is just as bad as the terrorism of the KKK?

You're being too specific.

Try it this way:

Any solution to racial and ethnic inequality in a society must necessarily address race and ethnicity. By definition, that solution is "racist". All racism is wrong. Therefore any specific effort to solve racial and ethnic inequality is wrong.

The only just solution, then, is to allow racism and its effects to naturally dissipate. Which, of course, they will, because if government hadn't interfered by reiterating the equality of all people, the free market would have solved the problem even faster.

I mean, you have to admit, Ice, it's a pretty slick argument, and it takes some admirable number and magnitude of balls to expect us to believe it.

Supremacist issues in a society are the one set of problems that can be solved simply by ignoring them.

"Simple things are never problems. Unfortunate, maybe, but if it isn't complicated, it isn't really a problem."

—Vladimir Taltos
 
Whether you discriminate against a minority because you're a member of the KKK, or against a non-minority and call it "anti-racist", it's still race based discrimination and one is just as bad as the other.

Depends on whether the labelling of "anti-racist" stands up to scrutiny or not, obviously. Which is a difficult question in a lot of cases, no doubt, but it's pretty cheap to insist that all such labels are necessarily hollow.

Anyway I think you can see, by now, that nobody is much impressed by the insistence that racial discrimination itself - independent of actual racism - is the fundamental, supreme crime in question. Racial oppression is inherently bad. Efforts to oppose such oppression are not inherently bad - they are, by default, good, unless it can be shown that there is some practical flaw in their execution that renders them counter-productive at their intended purpose. And, no, the mere presence of "discrimination" against a "non-minority" does not so render them.
 
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