Merry Mithras and Christmas!

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm - Other references in regards to Mithraism, and in general, pagan beliefs. Admitted by Tertullian and, as noted, by Justin Martyr.

The majority of current arguments against Christianity have their foundation in pagan Roman critiques. Their overall lack of influence in mainstream Christianity is also parralled by the fact that Christianity was the victor and not paganism in the ancient world, through such monsters as Constantine and the like.
 
Ayodhya:

A pleasure. I find the linguistic, cultural, religious, genetic, and historical connections between the Indo-Europeans to be of magnificient interest.
 
Prince_James said:
http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/royaltyr/AncientCities/web/gierc/project1/Trypho.htm

Justin Martyr relating the fact, as claimed by modern critics of Christianity, that there are striking parralells of the Christ myth with pagan beliefs.
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I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with pagan beliefs to get anything out of that document, I'm just talking about the opinions of Modern Mithraic scholars re: the two Mithra gods, the Indo-Persian and the Roman.

Although Roman Mithras is often considered to be of Persian origin, not least in antiquity, the assumption that Roman Mithras is specifically an outgrowth of Persian Zoroastrian culture probably cannot be sustained. The arguments against Mithras being of Zoroastrian origin are as follows:

* That the fact that the tauroctony, the myth of Mithras' slaying of a sacred bull, which is one of the central motifs of Mithraism, does not occur in either Zoroastrianism or later Persian mythology. A similar legend (see iconography below) does exist in Zoroastrianism, but Mithra does not play a role in it. Also noteworthy is the fact that the slayer is evil, while in Persian lore Mithra is good.
* In Zoroastrian angelology and Persian mythology, Korshed (middle Persian: Khur, Avestan: Hvare-khshaeta), and not Mithra, is the divinity of the sun and solar energy.
* None of the characteristic underground temples (Mithraea) have been found outside the Roman empire, or in Persia.

Although these arguments can be explained away, the common traits or the absence thereof, cannot sustain or refute the connection by themselves.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism#Connections

Some would argue that because the Gospels are thought to have been mostly before 100 and that since very little is known of Roman Mithraism until after 100 that it is implausible to say that Christianity borrowed its doctrines from Mithraism; some have even suggested that Mithraism may have, in fact, borrowed elements from Christianity.[citation needed] But others suggest that it is more likely that similarities in practise go back to a common background in the Mediterranean world in the 1st century BC to 1st century AD. [6].

A better determinant of borrowing, is to compare core doctrines between Christianity and Mithraism. The adoption of imagery or icons or festivals is fairly peripheral (such as the adoption by christendom of winter solstice or Saturnalia festivals as Christmas) but seldom reflects basic religious tenets. A further example of this is the various gnostic cults (such as the Marcionites and Valentinians) which adopted the personage of Jesus or the concept of a Savior, yet did not adopt the underlying doctrinal elements.
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Prince_James said:
SamCDKey:

Any of the references you specifically suggest I look into?
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The Proceedings of the International Congress of Mithraic Studies might be a good place to start. I believe they disagreed with Cumonts views of a common Indo-Persian-Roman Mithras.
 
SamCDKey:

Although these arguments can be explained away, the common traits or the absence thereof, cannot sustain or refute the connection by themselves.
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Whereas it is clearly that the Roman Mithras was of a different character than the Persian, one must also take into consideration that similar pagan differences arising. For instance, the Germanic Tyr is a cognante of Dyeus. Accordingly, he ought to be the chief God. Yet over centuries of belief, the Germanics elevated Odin above Tyr and Tyr retains more of the justice, bravery, and war-like elements, rather than the position of the chief God. This did not happen in Greco-Roman religious belief, where Jupiter and Zeus retained their primacy amongst the deities. The deelevation of Varuna and Indra in Hinduism also displays such similar demotion over time common to Indo-European religions as a whole.

A better determinant of borrowing, is to compare core doctrines between Christianity and Mithraism. The adoption of imagery or icons or festivals is fairly peripheral (such as the adoption by christendom of winter solstice or Saturnalia festivals as Christmas) but seldom reflects basic religious tenets. A further example of this is the various gnostic cults (such as the Marcionites and Valentinians) which adopted the personage of Jesus or the concept of a Savior, yet did not adopt the underlying doctrinal elements.
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Certainly, Jesus retains a character distinct from the pagan origins that greatly impacted Christianity, but one cannot say that it was simply periphery when such things as a December 25th birthdate are shared, a similar communion ritual, and considerable other things. Moreover, it is unlikely that Mithras was impacted by Christianity, owing to the elitism of the Roman military, the exclusion of women from the cult, the militaristic overtones, and various other considerations.

But yes, I'll spend some time later looking through those references.
 
Prince_James said:
SamCDKey:



Whereas it is clearly that the Roman Mithras was of a different character than the Persian, one must also take into consideration that similar pagan differences arising. For instance, the Germanic Tyr is a cognante of Dyeus. Accordingly, he ought to be the chief God. Yet over centuries of belief, the Germanics elevated Odin above Tyr and Tyr retains more of the justice, bravery, and war-like elements, rather than the position of the chief God. This did not happen in Greco-Roman religious belief, where Jupiter and Zeus retained their primacy amongst the deities. The deelevation of Varuna and Indra in Hinduism also displays such similar demotion over time common to Indo-European religions as a whole.
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True, the problem however is that whatever we know of Roman Mithras is unchanged from its presumed appearance, so it seems not to be an offshoot (ie there is no sequence of change from the Persian to the Roman)
Certainly, Jesus retains a character distinct from the pagan origins that greatly impacted Christianity, but one cannot say that it was simply periphery when such things as a December 25th birthdate are shared, a similar communion ritual, and considerable other things. Moreover, it is unlikely that Mithras was impacted by Christianity, owing to the elitism of the Roman military, the exclusion of women from the cult, the militaristic overtones, and various other considerations.

But yes, I'll spend some time later looking through those references
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I think the borrowing of established rituals is perhaps easier than the borrowing of religious beliefs. In India for example, everyone celebrates Diwali and Christamas with equal fervour due to the secular nature of the celebrations. The incorporation of Hindu and Christian secular rituals does not mean that the religious beliefs are also transferred. Most Christians recognise that Dec 25 is celebrated as Christ's birthday but that it is not his actual known date of birth. So the similarity in rituals IMO does not convey a similarity in belief. Attractive rituals may continue past the beliefs in which they originated. e.g. I am pretty sure many atheists do the Santa and Xmas tree rituals for their kids even if they are not Christian.
 
SamCDKey:

True, the problem however is that whatever we know of Roman Mithras is unchanged from its presumed appearance, so it seems not to be an offshoot (ie there is no sequence of change from the Persian to the Roman)
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I am a bit confused with your point here. Are you saying that we see no change in Roman Mithras to account for the Persian connection? Or that the Roman Mithras showed no change throughout the cult's history, hence it could not have come from a tradition of changing deities?

I think the borrowing of established rituals is perhaps easier than the borrowing of religious beliefs. In India for example, everyone celebrates Diwali and Christamas with equal fervour due to the secular nature of the celebrations. The incorporation of Hindu and Christian secular rituals does not mean that the religious beliefs are also transferred. Most Christians recognise that Dec 25 is celebrated as Christ's birthday but that it is not his actual known date of birth. So the similarity in rituals IMO does not convey a similarity in belief. Attractive rituals may continue past the beliefs in which they originated. e.g. I am pretty sure many atheists do the Santa and Xmas tree rituals for their kids even if they are not Christian.
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The difference of the mystery cult status of Mithras must be taken into consideration. Mystery cults represented the truly devoutly religious part of the Roman people. An adoption of ritual and belief from there would be a serious adoption of a belief-set. Knowing how important the mysteries were, Theophilus of Alexandria desecrated the idols and other hidden objects of worship when he ransacked the pagan temples in Alexandria preceding his burning of the Library of Alexandria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Alexandria
 
Or even 'Happy 2013th Anniversary' (of the appearance of the Star of Bethlehem).

Of the appearance of a conjunction of Venus and Mercury in the Eastern pre-dawn sky. Both were at nearly their maximum brightness. This only happens once every 480 years and was expected. It occurs on other occasions at less brightness. The fact that it was expected says volumes for the astronomical ability of 'the ancients'.

It was apparently expected to herald the birth of a Messiah to lead the Jews from under the 'thumb' of the Romans. That didn't work!

It, obviously, also happened in 1447 bc. which is given by some as the date of the passover, when, incidentally, Moses saw the 'Divine Shekinah'. It also happened in 967 bc. which is given by some as the year of the construction of King Solomon's temple.

Mohammed apparently witnessed the 'Divine Shakeenah' before retiring to the cave to commune with God.

It makes one wonder what the Egyptians associated with this conjunction. Their astronomy would appear to have a lot to answer for.
 
Prince_James said:
http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/royaltyr/AncientCities/web/gierc/project1/Trypho.htm

Justin Martyr relating the fact, as claimed by modern critics of Christianity, that there are striking parralells of the Christ myth with pagan beliefs.
Click to expand...

*************
M*W: Not only that, the Christ myth relates to the Julius Caesar myth.

See: Jesus was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity -- An Investigative Report by Aspekt, by Francesco Carotta.

See: Caesar's Messiah, by Joseph Atwill.

The legend of "Christ" is a parody of the lives of the Roman Caesars (or maybe only Julius Caesar).
 
Itseemstome: Or even 'Happy 2013th Anniversary' (of the appearance of the Star of Bethlehem).

*************
M*W: Perhaps there was an astrological conjunction over the skies of Bethlehem. I don't know. But, that doesn't prove the arrival of any messiah, it's simply a sky phenomenon.

Of the appearance of a conjunction of Venus and Mercury in the Eastern pre-dawn sky. Both were at nearly their maximum brightness. This only happens once every 480 years and was expected. It occurs on other occasions at less brightness. The fact that it was expected says volumes for the astronomical ability of 'the ancients'.
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*************
M*W: That few of years, 480 years, is a drop in the bucket for human life counted on an astrological basis.

It was apparently expected to herald the birth of a Messiah to lead the Jews from under the 'thumb' of the Romans. That didn't work!
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*************
M*W: Why would humankind even expect it to work?

It, obviously, also happened in 1447 bc. which is given by some as the date of the passover, when, incidentally, Moses saw the 'Divine Shekinah'. It also happened in 967 bc. which is given by some as the year of the construction of King Solomon's temple.
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*************
M*W: As with any calendar known to mankind, events repeat themselves. Christians would deny this, but it's true. History repeats itself.

Mohammed apparently witnessed the 'Divine Shakeenah' before retiring to the cave to commune with God.
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*************
M*W: I cannot say what Mohammed saw when he retired to his cave. It would appear that Mohammed saw and believed in the "shekinah." The "shekinah" is a female spirit. I don't see the Jews or the Arabs worshipping a female spirit.

It makes one wonder what the Egyptians associated with this conjunction. Their astronomy would appear to have a lot to answer for.
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*************
M*W: The Egyptians may have had the correct answer, but how many modern day people accept what the ancient Egyptians saw and believed in?
 
Julius Caesar
Jesus Christ
JC

Medicine Woman said:
The legend of "Christ" is a parody of the lives of the Roman Caesars (or maybe only Julius Caesar).
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is it not a parody of the sun anymore?

M*W: As with any calendar known to mankind, events repeat themselves. Christians would deny this, but it's true. History repeats itself.
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pi (infinity) never repeats itself.

but how many modern day people accept what the ancient Egyptians saw and believed in?
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c7 would.
 
Prince_James said:
Medicine WOman:

I'll check out those books if I can, although as I have noted before, I am not convinced of the Julius Caesar/Jesus connection. THe pagan God-man meets Apollonius of Tyana seems more likely.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/bldefapollonius.htm
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*************
M*W: I agree that Apollonius of Tyana is an interesting historical character. I don't know for sure if the connection between Caesar and Jesus is true or not. I find it to be an interesting comparison between the two of them. It actually makes some sense to me. Bottom line, though, I find the astro-theological comparison between the Sun=God=Jesus to be the correct comparison. (Not that I believe in the worship of the sun).

Some of the researchers I've read tend to associate Apollonius of Tyana with the Apostle Paul. I don't believe the Apostle Paul existed either. I'm more inclined to believe that Paul comes from Apollo.
 
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