Mercury - Venus - Earth space drag?

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nebel

The planet Venus has a retrograde rotation which means that the sides of the 3 inner planets that face each other over the ~.3 AU average distance always move in the same direction, like the teeth of gears, or at least surfaces of a slipping clutch. If this a kind of space drag, or due to tidal actions, could this be an effect operating only at this minimal distance? -- or a topic moved to astronomy?
 
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nebel said:
The planet Venus has a retrograde rotation which means that the sides of the 3 inner planets that face each other over the ~.3 AU average distance always move in the same direction, like the teeth of gears, or at least surfaces of a slipping clutch. If this a kind of space drag, or due to tidal actions, could this be an effect operating only at this minimal distance? -- or a topic moved to astronomy?
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No and No.
 
too bad, because that would look like neat cosmic gearworks. can you imagine the twists of the Uranus wheeling? Rotation is often accompanied with counterrotating vortices like in the "tale of two waves" topic.
 
I am just pointing out connections that are interesting but do not imply causation, like the coincidence that the rotation of the Earth/Moon system is quasi-synchronized with the revolution timing of 99% of the mass in the solar system, it's central star.
 
nebel said:
I am just pointing out connections that are interesting but do not imply causation, like the coincidence that the rotation of the Earth/Moon system is quasi-synchronized with the revolution timing of 99% of the mass in the solar system, it's central star.
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A synodic period of the Sun is about the same length as a sidereal period of the Moon.

They are, however, different classifications of measurement.
 
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nebel said:
I am just pointing out connections
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What you are not pointing out is not connections.
that are interesting but do not imply causation,
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Correct so what is your point?
like the coincidence that the rotation of the Earth/Moon system is quasi-synchronized with the revolution timing of 99% of the mass in the solar system, it's central star.
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First you mean orbit not rotation. Secondly, they are not quai-sychronized. The sun contains approximately 99.8% of the mass of the solar system. The earth's rotational period is about 24 hours and the sun's is about 24 days, do you think that 'means' something?
 
The rotation of the earth /moon system about it's barycenter is ~ the same as the mean solar rotation. is there is a connection acting in the same timing in the same plane? if there is what would be the meaning? how would all that change with time, ? the are things I like to hear about.
using an awkward illustration, Ballroom dancers on a floor doing a waltz are synchronized (although even counter-rotating), but are all responding to the beat of the music. not suggesting a mechanism here, but vibrations are everywhere, acoustics.
 
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nebel said:
The rotation of the earth /moon system about it's barycenter is ~ the same as the mean solar rotation. is there is a connection acting in the same timing in the same plane? if there is what would be the meaning? how would all that change with time, ? the are things I like to hear about.
using an awkward illustration, Ballroom dancers on a floor doing a waltz are synchronized (although even counter-rotating), but are all responding to the beat of the music. not suggesting a mechanism here, but vibrations are everywhere, acoustics.
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Eh? The Earth/moon system takes about 28 days to complete a rotation, doesn't it? If that is true, while the mean solar rotation period is 24 days, then they are not related at all, since they will get 180 degrees out of phase, relative to any given starting point, within 4 months.
 
nebel said:
The rotation of the earth /moon system about it's barycenter is ~ the same as the mean solar rotation. is there is a connection acting in the same timing in the same plane? if there is what would be the meaning? how would all that change with time, ? the are things I like to hear about.
using an awkward illustration, Ballroom dancers on a floor doing a waltz are synchronized (although even counter-rotating), but are all responding to the beat of the music. not suggesting a mechanism here, but vibrations are everywhere, acoustics.
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For one, the Sun doesn't rotate in one piece, it goes from rotating at at period of ~34.19 days at the poles to 24.47 days at the equator. The 25.38 day value (which gives a synodic period of 27.27 days) is more or less an arbitrary choice used as a reference for measuring Sun spot activity. And as you move down towards the center, it the sidereal rotation starts to shift to 27.55 days (29.8 synodic) Getting the mean rotation rate for the mass of the Sun is no easy task.

Secondly, the period of the Earth-Moon system is constantly changing, the Moon is slowly moving out from the Earth, so in the past the period was shorter and in the future it will be longer. So there really isn't anything to the somewhat closeness of these numbers
 
Janus58 said:
For one, the Sun doesn't rotate in one piece, it goes from rotating at at period of ~34.19 days at the poles to 24.47 days at the equator. The 25.38 day value (which gives a synodic period of 27.27 days) is more or less an arbitrary choice used as a reference for measuring Sun spot activity. And as you move down towards the center, it the sidereal rotation starts to shift to 27.55 days (29.8 synodic) Getting the mean rotation rate for the mass of the Sun is no easy task.

Secondly, the period of the Earth-Moon system is constantly changing, the Moon is slowly moving out from the Earth, so in the past the period was shorter and in the future it will be longer. So there really isn't anything to the somewhat closeness of these numbers
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Ah, that's interesting about the sun, thanks. Do I take it that the rotation of the sun is due to the angular momentum of the original gas and dust cloud that the solar system condensed from, or are there other processes at work?
 
Daecon: The spacings of gaps in ring systems often are based in 1:2, 2:3 resonance ratios with the orbit timings of their dominant bodies. The lagrangian areas equidistant with the orbit radii. The coinciding of solar pulsations, 5 minute 160 minute with the ~.3 AU minimum and ~9.6 Max orbit spacings ( .3 AU : Mercury/Venus/Earth.) (160 min x c= 9.6 AU Saturn/Uranus/Neptune)
The events are recurring, the timing could result in quasi standing wave patterns. imho
 
nebel said:
Daecon: The spacings of gaps in ring systems often are based in 1:2, 2:3 resonance ratios with the orbit timings of their dominant bodies. The lagrangian areas equidistant with the orbit radii. The coinciding of solar pulsations, 5 minute 160 minute with the ~.3 AU minimum and ~9.6 Max orbit spacings ( .3 AU : Mercury/Venus/Earth.) (160 min x c= 9.6 AU Saturn/Uranus/Neptune)
The events are recurring, the timing could result in quasi standing wave patterns. imho
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Huh?
 
fractals ? Huh? I am looking at interesting patterns, particularly in our planetary system, perhaps also in developing ones we can now see. One way to bunch up matter in rings as we see, would be through a Chladni kind of an effect generated through resonances "Eigenschwingungen" in the central star, and/or the surrounding influences. Using c as a benchmark, the wavelength of a 5 minute resonance, and 160 minutes would correspond to the observed minimum orbital diameter difference of`.3 AU of the 3 inner planets, and 9.6 AU for the three outermost. In between, from Mars to Saturn, the orbit diameters double, giving a scale in doubling of corresponding frequencies, that would look like the 5 octave span on a piano.
Correlation is not causation, but I would investigate the frequencies in the protoplanetary disks, their stars, to see if Chladni is not alive and well. and
with all that close matter in the forming rings, a lot of close gravity pulling would be going on. Do some engineers not contemplate to use a gravity "leash" "lasso" to pull asteroids out of dangerous orbits? space draglines via weak gravity without making contact?
 
interesting too, that the orbital plane of the Earth/Moon system is within 2 degrees normal to the axis of rotation of the sun. a fluid as she/he is .
 
Just bumping up this thread for the weekend warriors, that are not off to the cottage, the flying club, gone fishing, or bedding down for the sabbath, to show that Nebel's old brain is still stuck on zero contact connections, soft landings. and now
584 days*, that it shares with the " Jupiter's canceling velocities" thread.
risking to have it all bumped to the bilge, alternative or pseudo too.
* This, in one form or another, would make a neat orbital mechanics, kinetics exam question. imho.
 
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origin said:
No and No.
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Perhaps to the OP.
Venus is in retrograde rotation, that means that her dayside, facing Mercury, moves to what would be our sunup position, moving in the orbital direction at 6.5 km/hr. At the same time,
Mercury's equator , prograde rotates on his' nightside, facing Venus, moving at 11km/s also in the orbital direction. If not matching speeds, it is matching directions , which would be opposing in all other planet trios.
ng clutch.Venus, retrograde rotation on the nightside would recede backward from the orbit at 6.5 km/h, not a big deal when you are going forward at 35 km/sec, 126 000 kmh. but still,
Earth on the sunny side rotates backward from the orbital direction at 1670 km/hr, the same direction, but not synchronized with Venus' 6.5
Imaginary space drag, same direction movement yes, space synchronization no. ( Drag, force resulting from difference in velocities). Not a situation like on Jupiter, Saturn, where there is velocity synchronization to ~zero velocity at noon at the equator with respect to the ecliptic field.
The inner planets have orbital velocities 100 000 times greater than their rotation. Only outer gas giants achieve parity.
 
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