Mathematics of Horse Race Gambling

In translation, you got proven wrong in this thread so you feel compelled to troll on the same subject in a second thread . You extended your trolling from one thread to two threads.

Oh, Boy, you sure .. tailored .. that.

No Tach, in translation;

Tach - this thread is mainly about horse racing. To stay on topic and to not interfere with others I have opened a new thread, 'roulette'

Anything else is supertition (irrational belief) combined with your .. emm, imaginative tailoring.
 
Oh, Boy, you sure .. tailored .. that.

No Tach, in translation;

Tach - this thread is mainly about horse racing.


Got changed onward from post 10.


To stay on topic and to not interfere with others I have opened a new thread, 'roulette'

In other words, you extended your trolling from one thread to a second thread.


Anything else is supertition (irrational belief) combined with your .. emm, imaginative tailoring.

Yeah, "supertition"
 
Got changed onward from post 10.

In other words, you extended your trolling from one thread to a second thread.

Yeah, "supertition"

It doesn't matter that it got changed. More recently, posters were definitely changing the discussion back to horse racing.

Yeah, "supertition"

Oh, I do that occasionally. When you are faced with your utter absurdity of thinking you somehow divined the future, some minor release for you .. some irrelevency for you to focus on is no bad relief valve. I am not that unkind, you know.
 
thinking you somehow divined the future,

That is what you think. I can assure you that you think this way due to your inability to understand the explanations given to you repeatedly. I take it that you are much better at trolling than at comprehension.
 
That is what you think. I can assure you that you think this way due to your inability to understand the explanations given to you repeatedly. I take it that you are much better at trolling than at comprehension.

Indeed that's what I think. And it's the truth. You have given no explanation at all as to how you managed to tailor someones losing results to predict future events, which is what you assert.

I see you haven't denied any of my propositions in the roulette thread. I'm sure if there was any error in them you'd be in there boots and all. In the next day or so (time permitting) I will extract a summary of your comments and post them there, as this thread here is about horse racing and I don't want to go off topic, particulary as other posters have recently been discussing horse racing.

About your continued attempts at provication in calling me 'trolling' it's probably your guilt manifesting. Keep in mind it is you who has had a big black line through their name here recently, not me.

And grow up!

PS - this is my last post in this thread about roulette.
 
Indeed that's what I think.

Well, it is wrong, you'll have to stop trolling on the subject and live with it.


You have given no explanation at all as to how you managed to tailor someones losing results to predict future events, which is what you assert.

It is very simple, really, if you observe someone placing loosing bids for long runs (hint) and you place the opposite of their bid, you are bound to win for long runs. You repeatedly failed to comprehend this simple probability fact. Tell you what, you can try it too, beats your incessant trolling , you may even make some money, like I did. You will need to find someone with a laptop at the roulette table, though.

PS - this is my last post in this thread about roulette.

I hope you keep your promise.
 
Well, it is wrong, you'll have to stop trolling on the subject and live with it.




It is very simple, really, if you observe someone placing loosing bids for long runs (hint) and you place the opposite of their bid, you are bound to win for long runs. You can try it too, beats your incessant trolling , you may even make some money, like I did.


I hope you keep your promise.

To stay on topic with each respective thread, I will reply to your 'explanation' in the roulette thread. This may be in one days time as I have a 500klm drive in front of me.

PS - grow up!
 
To stay on topic with each respective thread, I will reply to your 'explanation' in the roulette thread. This may be in one days time as I have a 500klm drive in front of me.

PS - grow up!

Not interested in your trolling in multiple threads.
 
Lol .. I predicted THAT with a probability of .99

Never mind. Your .. ahem .. mathematical prowess won't be needed.

You mentioned that this was your last post trolling this thread. This was three posts ago, I take it that trolling is much easier for you than trying to understand explanations :D
 
You mentioned that this was your last post trolling this thread. This was three posts ago, I take it that trolling is much easier for you than trying to understand explanations :D

Sad ..

I said;
PS - this is my last post in this thread about roulette.

And the tailor tailored;
You mentioned that this was your last post trolling this thread. This was three posts ago ..
 
I think Jennifer meant he didn't get to the betting window to place his bet on time in the first place, given the short notice from the 'scheme co-ordinator' message about which horse to bet on. So that 'untrustworthy' participant need only present the 'betting stake' (minus any winnings/profit' he made, of course!....because he WAS able to get to the betting window on time, but told a fib in order to keep the winnings for himself. Is that what you meant, Jennifer?). :)

Exactly
 
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigorish They take a cut on both the winners and losers.

Good article. When I was a student, for some spare bucks, I once got a job as a bookies 'penciler'. All I did was write down the bets as taken by the bookmaker, as they were made.

But I observed that the bookmakers objective, was to 'make the book', ie, to balance the book in his favour so that he had an edge no matter the outcome. I was amazed - enthralled even, as to how the old guy (in his 70's) had everything in his head and constantly twiddled the knobs on his display board, to adjust the odds relative to the betting coming in. IE, if he had taken too much on the favourite he would wind it out to 'out of the money' so no one was interested in it.

How the guy managed to do this with a dozen horses in a race, effectivley and in real time was amazing. But he did, and he had 2 rollers, a helicopter, etc.
 
I'm interested

Anyone have an interest in horse racing? If even for the mathematics behind it?

I'm very interested in the mathematics of horseracing--especially the mathematics of the pari-mutual system, whether horse or not.

I have a question which is driving me crazy--it's strictly mathematical & has me totally stumped. I'm a non-scientist, non-mathematican.

Can you help?
 
pari-mutuel mathematics

jjjj
At the end of this post, the correct methodology is described for winning money versus a parimutuel system. It follows a methodology for beating a hand book. It is not likely to result in finding a winning system, but is the best known approach to the problem short of fixing races.

If anyone has specific questions, I might be able to provide answers. Sorry for the use of some jargon, the meanings of which I think should be obvious from context.

As a teenager, a friend & I had a lot of luck the first time we went to a race track. We won about $2000 in 4-5 days & thought we knew what we were doing.

In about a week, we had lost it all & were never ahead again. I never became addicted, only going to a track on rare occasions hen friends wanted to go. My friend who was from a wealthy family lost millions over his life time, never realizing that our initial winnings were due to luck, not skill at handicapping horses.

I know a lot about handicapping horses, calculating payoffs, the track take, et cetera. I was involved in writing the first programs for calculating payoffs, which is not difficult but a bit more complex than most people imagine. I prefer Blackjack, which I have played a lot over a period of 50 or so years.

Until the late 1950's, payoffs were computed by men who had a knack for doing arithmetic very fast. I forget the numbers, but there is some estimate that many thousands of dollars are not bet on the next race for every minute that payoffs are delayed. Track owners want to pay off the winners as soon as possible, in order to increase the handle on the next race.

In theory, a parimutuel system is beatable. The odds are determined by the way people at the track bet. If most of them lose their minds & bet on hopeless horses, a knowledgeable person can win money by betting at good odds on horses who are likely to win.

In practice, there are not enough stupid bettors to result in odds skewed enough to allow a good handicapper to beat the track take. There are touts, tip sheets, & other sources of advice to help the really stupid bettors.

When I first went to the track, the take was about 17% counting breakage. It rose to 22% & I have no idea whether it is higher or lower now. You can get an indication of the track take by computing 1/(odds +1) for each horse & adding up the fractions. Then subtract one. The result indicates the take. Example using a 4-horse race
  • Assume odds on the horses are on the horses are 1 to 1, 2 to 1, 3 to 1 & 4 to 1.

  • Compute booking percentages as 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5

  • Approximate booking percentages: .50, .33, .25, .20, totaling 1.28

  • If you bet on all 4 horses using ratios of the above, you would bet $50, $33, $25 & $20, totaling $128

  • No matter which horse won, you would receive $100 & be out $28.
100/128 = .78, indicating that you would get back about 78% of the money you bet. This approximates the average loss to the overall betting public at the track.

At society horse shows & races, there used to be hand books instead of a parimutuel machine. Old time bookies would give you a slip of paper showing that you had bet say $10 at 3 to 1 on horse number three. You would be paid off at those odds no matter what final odds were assigned to the horse. As more bets were made, the bookie would adjust the odds to balance the book. I do not think that there are any old time bookies in United States, but they might exist in the UK.

When I was in college, there were bookies who ran hand books at these society events for nostalgia, not to make money. They had no idea of which horses were the best. In a 5-horse race, they would usually start out giving 3 to 1 odds on each horse (total booking percentages: 1.25) & adjust as the bets indicated which horses should have higher or lower odds.

Some of my college friends knew horse owners & could give advice on which horses should be favored. I would make early bets on the better horses & later bet on the other horses at high odds (as the bookie dropped the odds on the better horses, the odds on the other horses would rise).

The above allowed me to win a small amount of money 3-4 times a year. What I did was called Dutching the book. The term was due to a Dutchman who made money off of hand bookies circa 1900-1930.

I did not invent the above system on my own. I happened to be the friend of a childless bookie in the neighborhood where I grew up. I ran errands for him & he told me a lot about the gambling industry. I felt closer to him than to some of my uncles & he was very fond of me. We kept in touch until he died when I was about 40 years old.

Most attempts to beat a parimutuel system are based on attempts to handicap horses & decide which horse is going to win. Some handicapping systems advise betting on more than one horse in a race. In the latter case, ratios of booking percentages (see above) should be used to determine how much to beat on each horse. The emphasis on trying to determine a winner is an incorrect approach to the problem. Another bad idea is to make Place or Show bets (will describe why if asked).

The correct methodology for beating a parimutuel system is to use a computer to analyze past performance data & compare with the known results of past races. If you can determine an algorithm which accurately estimates the probability of a horse winning, you have the basis for a winning methodology. For example consider the following imaginary situation, using the above 4-horse race.
  • Your supposedly accurate algorithm is supplies the following probabilities (assume bets of $1.00).

  • Horse 1: odds 1 to 1 & probability of winning is .40, resulting in a return of $80 for one hundred $1.00 bets. Net loss:$20.00

  • Horse 2: odds 2 to 1 & probability of winning is .30, resulting in a return of $90 for one hundred $1.00 bets. Net loss:$10.00

  • Horse 3: odds 3 to 1 & probability of winning is .28, resulting in a return of $112 for one hundred $1.00 bets. Net gain:$12.00

  • Horse 4: odds 4 to 1 & probability of winning is .02, resulting in a return of $10 for one hundred $1.00 bets. Net loss:$90.00
Horses 1 & 2 are more likely to win, but will result in net losses over 100 bets. Horse 3 is less likely to win, but will result in a gain over 100 bets.

There are many types of races: Maiden (virgin) races, Claiming races, Allowance races, Handicap races, Stakes races, Stakes races with added purse money, and I am not sure what other types. Within each type there are different ratings. For example: A horse entered in a Claiming race can be bought for the Claiming price. A horse can be bought for $1000 in a low rated race, while I think there are races with claiming prices of as much as $100,000

BTW: A Maiden race is for horses who have never won. Nobody in their right mind attempts to pick a winner from a bunch of losers, but there are many who bet on such races.

The quest for a winning methodology attempts to find some type of race for which accurate probabilities of winning can be determined for at least a few of the horses. Given accurate probabilities, one then checks the parimutuel display to determine if some horse’s payoff will show a profit in the long run (EG: Horse 3 in the above hypothetical example).

I think it is possible, but unlikely, that a suitable algorithm can be found. It is futile to attempt to find an algorithm applicable to all (or even many) different types/classes of races. It is probably futile to attempt to find more than a few algorithms, each applicable to a particular type/class of race.

BTW: The history of my teenage friend indicates that there is some rationale behind the belief in beginner’s luck. Suppose you pick (for example) 100 individuals who try gambling for the first time. Perhaps 1 or 2 will win big, 20 will win some money & the rest will break even or lose. Those who initially win (especially the ones who won big) are more likely to become regular gamblers, while those who lose the first time they try are less likely to become regulars. Hence, a group of regular gamblers is likely to include many who were winners the first time they gambled.

Can any mathematicians help me with questions I have about the pari-mutual system
 
I composed a lengthy WordPerfecr document, which I had to convert to MS Word (WP files not accepted here)

I hope the format converted okay
 
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