Material v. Spiritual Pleasures

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"As you can imagine, I could have a field day deconstructing the information of this page on the strength of vedic information"

Please do so.

It might be more easier to just focus on the correct points

Point 1 - they have the right spelling of the word soma

"Ithink you mean epistemology - and since it innvolves making the senses very malleable and unreliable (which BTW is not advocated in the correct religious epistemology) the ontological conclusions are highly suspicious"

What do you call having "transcendent experiences"?

experiences beyond the parameters of the material senses and mind - of course this may seem similar to having one's brains sold to the gaa gaa god (LSD) but there is a whole body of work by staunch philosophers and practioners to determine the difference between what is divine and what is mere mundane madness

"Yes - because the accounts of seeing god (or rather, being god, which is the common "spiritual experience" of such foolishness) don't tally with previous accounts or scriptural evidence - much in the saem way that seeing atoms split etc also while under the influence also doesn't tally with the established scientific body of work"

How do you verify whether one experience of God is more apt than the other? Perhaps scriptural evidence is what is in error? That LSD is superior because it displays a true reality over the partial reality of scripture?

Ok well suppose one takes LSD and says that they are god - the natural question that arises is "Why does god have to take LSD just to realise he is god?"
And of course you are assuming that there is nobody who has seen god - like for instance suppose one is a physicist and is deeply familiar with the theory and practice because they work with such things practically every day - then a drug crazed person comes along with their nonsense in the name of physics - do you think the physicist can't smell the difference in half a second?

"Well if you lack knowledge in such situations a burgeoning sense of bravado could just as likely get you killed too - and even if you come out the hero time still kills you in the long run anyway unless you develop a type of knowledge that is uniquely available in the human form of life - the book was called Hitopadesa - kind of like a precurser to aesop's fables"

You admit that we ought to wash our hands, yet they get dirty. Do you not then agree it is better to live, even if you must die? Or should we simply kill ourselves now because "time kills us"?

Its just not apparent how martial arts is going to increase your life span since it innvolves a lot of variables that could just as easily make you die sooner (many martial artists are puffed up and go looking for fights - like for instance I have never had a broken bone or a bleeding nose or a collapsed lung or a severed hand - I can not say the same of many martial artists I have known)

"If all one is interested in in the name of exercise yoga is bodilyhealth it is not a bad option - even atheists do it too -lol -"

Yes. But were you thinking of anything else specifically?

Not specifically

"So he allows us to love him as if he were vulnerable? ”


Yes"

Why should we want to have this? THat sounds pretty wasteful and obnoxious!

On the contrary a grandparent does the same thing when they pretend to be a horse for their grandchild - at the very least the grandchild seems to like it - so does the grandparent too - if you think it is obnoxious it probably explains why you are in the material world to begin with

"Unfortunately we are lower than hogs, dogs and camels in terms of intelligence though - in other words our material advancements are mostly used for fulfilling lower than animal propensities-as for living thrice as long - you don't arrive at that estimation if you include abortions into the average age."

Abortions have been practiced for thousands of years.

But it is only recently that it has become a nationally endorsed activity probably numering in the millions world wide every year

Infanticide and herb-induced abortions are massively practiced amongst slews of primitive people.

I doubt such statements can said with authority

In fact, considering the relative lack of such killings of children outside of abortion, as well as the greater assurance that they will survive, I would put forth that we save more children now than ever, and indeed, live longer because of that.

Obviously you are not including places like china and america in your data collection

And in what way are our propensities lower than animals?

Rather than being simply satisfied with sleeping eating, mating and defending in simple natural ways (like animals) we have to dress these things up in the name of civilisation, by destroying the environment - in other words we inhibit our ability to approach the necessities of life by manufacturing millions of artificial needs. - at least an animal knows how to behave

"Then there is the absence of ice cream when one desires it or over eating ice cream - inother words all our material pleasures exist between two dualities that see us suffer because they all pertain to the body which is constantly threatened with weakness and non- existence"

Then simply take the middle path and avoid such extremes? And just take into consideration that without pain, there is no pleasure?

Lol - and that middle path is impossible to traverse without spiritual intelligence

"I cannot conceive of a circumstance where serving the genitals and senses will benefit you - I mean we feel hungry and thirsty for a reason - i don't denythat - but how much of what we feel the "need" to do is actually necessary for our continued material existence (eating because we require nutrition etc) and how much is because of impulse? How many times do you suppose your average man has passed semen before the age of 25 solely for the purpose of procreation?"

Why should we be so guided by the "natural ends" to the purposes? Food tastes good. Drink tastes good. Sex feels good. Why should these things be "only for the base material foundations for their existence", as you seem to suggest?

Because their excess creates problems - its the whole nature of the mode of passion - which makes it more elevated than ignorance but not on grade with goodness (nectar in the beginning, poison in the end)

We desire pleasure, we seek pleasure, we attain pleasure. What is the problem with this?

you miss out on the fourth - we get disgusted with our pleasure - like for instance how many people marry the person of their dreams just to find out later they are not the person of their dreams?

You say that God created us. Why then did he create these things pleasurable if we should not seek them?

They are just like artificial enjoyments - the living entity can only exist in an atmosphere of enjoyment, and the only atmosphere of enjoyment is the spiritual world - if we have walked out of that we are left with a shoddy imitation that maintains its charm as long as we maintain the determination to see it as charming (ie illusion)

"generally the way it works out that the winner gets the prize because she is more beautiful rather than the least ugliest (although maybe if they had a really low class line up they could theoretically discriminate on those grounds) - like they don't say "and the second least ugliest contestant is Miss Florida" or whatever"

I agree. She is considered to have a positive quality. But compared to the winner, she is indeed ugly.

No - she is considered slightly less beautiful -

"That is the inconceivable nature of a mothers causeless love - if you pooed your pants in public nobody else would be your friend what to speak of constant well wisher"

Depends on what I was giving them. Howard Hughes was nuts, but people still served him.

That uniqueness of the mother example is that she is not getting paid - that is why it is called unmotivated service

"Yes - but before you begin part of that goodness innvolves bestowing upon us free will, without which there is no question of pure love"

Well really, we -really- need to go back to free-will sometime...Butttt...

Okay, so assume he does give us free will. Evil is contrary to good, yes? And God assurely hates evil, that is, he is opposed to it?

God hates evil? Evil is absence of knowledge of god and goodness is knowledge of god - in that sense god hates evil by making all arrangement fro us to know him - our reluctance to co-operate is evil - but god lets it slide in the material world since we have an eternity to get our act together

"So because we have misused free will , ie decided to be seperate from god, we have the material world full of all its delights - in other words if you bite your own tongue, who else can you blame?"

A perfect entity cannot accept evil and remain good.

From god's perspective the only dysfunctional aspect of the material creation are the conditioned living entities, which is why the material world is the perfect arrangement for persons possessed of such sentiments

"The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness."

I would argue there is indeed a time for sense pleasure, too. Right now I am enjoying some pineapples and see no reason why this is an inferior pleasure.

The point of this verse is that you cannot really expect a person to renounce something until they have experience of something better - hence the way of spiritual advancement usually takes the path of god gradually becoming more apparent to the degree that one gives up inferior things along the way to enable progress - like for instance if you had offerred the pineapple to god before eating it, you could have enjoyed the pineapple and made spiritual advancement at the same time

"Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment."

Then devotional service cannot occur?

No - devotional service is the means to get free from the modes of nature - the point here is that you cannot say "I will do nothing" (Either spiritual or material) because it is impossible to do nothing - we are active by nature in a world which is active

"BG 3.6: One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender."

Is he not on "the right trakc" according to your beliefs?

No - you seem to think that a person who has given up on what the material world has to offer spends their time pining over the rememberances of material sense gratification - the point is that one moves on to better things, very quickly in fact, right in this life - just like th ehot pizza compared to the cold one - you don't think - "OH where is my beloved cold pizza" its more like "I can't believe I used to like eating that crap"

"well I propose that there are more intelligent ways to achieve and appreciate pleasure - this is sado masochism"

Oh? How?

Remove the suffering part of the pursuit of pleasure - this innvolves god however

"Well that brings us to the topic of transcendental pleasure, which is not subject to such dualistic definitions"

What is the nature of transcendental pleasure that it is so divorced from pain? And how can it be so?

BG 5,23
An intelligent person does not take part in the sources of misery, which are due to contact with the material senses. O son of Kuntī, such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and so the wise man does not delight in them.

- the material body is not used as the vehicle for enjoyment

"We conquer them? We are conquered by all of them.
This even contains the word ontology"

We are conquered by them? Why then do our technologies make a mockery out of Mother Earth?

Mockery? Obviously you are not talking about the green house effect, thinning ozone, acid rain, permanant smog, undrinkabale water, traffic that travels at a pace slower than walking, increased instances of Leukimea with micro wave exposure, cancer , aids etc etc

Reduce her to a pest to be dealt with barely at all? Why is sickness and age so easily diminished in our age?

Obviously you are not intimately familiar with the bodily problems of old people

"Well there are a few scientific snags there - the first one being a mechanistic reduction for consciousness ......"

Theoretically, we could even find ways to attach the soul to matter artifically, if such things exist to begin with.

Well I imagine that if they are able to locate the soul they might be in for a few surprises -lol

"If it was the same thing as doing it indefinitely you would have no problems if it was required that you do it indefinitely - actually the problem is that in a jaundiced state of sickness even sweet things taste bitter"

So basically, the system sustains itself by making it impossible to do it for five minutes in any normal sense, despite promising that five minutes is enough?

No - it is not dependant on constraints of time

CC Adi 8.16
If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

There are scriptural incidents of persons who became fully realised in many lifes and others in an instant - depends on how sincere you are



"

The holy name, character, pastimes and activities of Kṛṣṇa are all transcendentally sweet like sugar candy. Although the tongue of one afflicted by the jaundice of avidyā [ignorance] cannot taste anything sweet, it is wonderful that simply by carefully chanting these sweet names every day, a natural relish awakens within his tongue, and his disease is gradually destroyed at the root."

All habits change the character of man.

Yes

"

No - then it is not suddha bhakti (pure unmotivated devotional service)"

Then I argue such is impossible. As benefit from any action is -impossible- to forego. Even doing such an action entails benefit from it, as one has put value on doing it.

Brings us back to mom and the nappies in the laundry

"He can - but then it would be mundane cheese - all cheese comes from god since he is the source of all material and spiritual manifestations"

So God can only make "God Cheese, perfect for happiness" by making it obvious that it is from God?

Actually there is a way around this prasadam

"A worm is also delighting in its experience of its "castle" as well"

I see nothing wrong for a worm to delight in his natural pleasures.

If you understood that he had arrived at his castle by misusing the human form of life you may beg to differ

 

[Prince_James]

lightgigantic:

"Point 1 - they have the right spelling of the word soma"

What do you have to show that all the other points are incorrect?

"experiences beyond the parameters of the material senses and mind - of course this may seem similar to having one's brains sold to the gaa gaa god (LSD) but there is a whole body of work by staunch philosophers and practioners to determine the difference between what is divine and what is mere mundane madness"

Some LSD users have even claimed to have collective hallucinations, which gives minor credance to the fact that they are experiencing something legitimate (although I am extremely skeptical). Moreover, studies have even shown that deep meditation and prayer produce changes in the brain which could account for such "experiences" quite nicely.

And what is the whole body of work and how does it entirely invalidate LSD?

"Ok well suppose one takes LSD and says that they are god - the natural question that arises is "Why does god have to take LSD just to realise he is god?""

Why are we apparently divine souls stuck in a material universe because we "exercised our free will" for misery and somehow disconnected ourselves and arose from an infinite God of pure goodness?

"And of course you are assuming that there is nobody who has seen god - like for instance suppose one is a physicist and is deeply familiar with the theory and practice because they work with such things practically every day - then a drug crazed person comes along with their nonsense in the name of physics - do you think the physicist can't smell the difference in half a second?"

They smell the difference in matters of religion, too. Why don't you discredit religion, then?

"Its just not apparent how martial arts is going to increase your life span since it innvolves a lot of variables that could just as easily make you die sooner (many martial artists are puffed up and go looking for fights - like for instance I have never had a broken bone or a bleeding nose or a collapsed lung or a severed hand - I can not say the same of many martial artists I have known)"

If met with an enemy, knowing how to fight might mean life or death. That one might be more prone to injury due to having to fight (perhaps because one lives in a bad neighbourhood) is not because one know show to fight, but actually, shows that one is fighting well, in that one hasn't died.

"On the contrary a grandparent does the same thing when they pretend to be a horse for their grandchild - at the very least the grandchild seems to like it - so does the grandparent too - if you think it is obnoxious it probably explains why you are in the material world to begin with"

Yet the idea is that the delusion ought to be joyful. Yet how could this act be considered such forever?

"But it is only recently that it has become a nationally endorsed activity probably numering in the millions world wide every year"

Shamefully, yes.

"I doubt such statements can said with authority"

Christopher Columbus even reported such practices amongst the American Indians he met when he first reached the New World.

"Obviously you are not including places like china and america in your data collection"

China has had some terrible abortion things, as well as America (30 million in 30 years), but even with such death tolls, the average rate of life is far higher than ever before.

"Rather than being simply satisfied with sleeping eating, mating and defending in simple natural ways (like animals) we have to dress these things up in the name of civilisation, by destroying the environment - in other words we inhibit our ability to approach the necessities of life by manufacturing millions of artificial needs. - at least an animal knows how to behave "

Yet are not these needs greater ways to enjoy things?

"Lol - and that middle path is impossible to traverse without spiritual intelligence"

How? People can easily realize that pain and pleasure are cousins of one another in life.

"Because their excess creates problems - its the whole nature of the mode of passion - which makes it more elevated than ignorance but not on grade with goodness (nectar in the beginning, poison in the end)"

I agree that excess causes problems. But why not indulge in proper portion?

"you miss out on the fourth - we get disgusted with our pleasure - like for instance how many people marry the person of their dreams just to find out later they are not the person of their dreams?"

We can sometimes get disgusted by pleasure. But if such is the case, well, we just get something else.

"They are just like artificial enjoyments - the living entity can only exist in an atmosphere of enjoyment, and the only atmosphere of enjoyment is the spiritual world - if we have walked out of that we are left with a shoddy imitation that maintains its charm as long as we maintain the determination to see it as charming (ie illusion)"

How is it an artificial enjoyment? It is as real as anything else.

"No - she is considered slightly less beautiful -"

Less beautiful = Comparatively ugly.

A pile of dog excrement is less beautiful than a flowering tree by a lot.

"That uniqueness of the mother example is that she is not getting paid - that is why it is called unmotivated service"

She is paid by the joy and value she has placed on her child.

"God hates evil? Evil is absence of knowledge of god and goodness is knowledge of god - in that sense god hates evil by making all arrangement fro us to know him - our reluctance to co-operate is evil - but god lets it slide in the material world since we have an eternity to get our act together"

If God is truly perfectly good, then allowing us ignorance - evil - is an act of evil itself, specifically as it is within his power to reveal to us the truth. Thus, GOd is not all good.

"
From god's perspective the only dysfunctional aspect of the material creation are the conditioned living entities, which is why the material world is the perfect arrangement for persons possessed of such sentiments"

Yet there is also evil to be found there. How can a perfect being tolerate such?

"The point of this verse is that you cannot really expect a person to renounce something until they have experience of something better - hence the way of spiritual advancement usually takes the path of god gradually becoming more apparent to the degree that one gives up inferior things along the way to enable progress - like for instance if you had offerred the pineapple to god before eating it, you could have enjoyed the pineapple and made spiritual advancement at the same time"

Yet God would have refused the pineapple as no such actions on his part would have occurred.

Let me do a bit of an experiment. I shall offer God ten seconds to take a sip of water, before I take his.

Lo and behold, the water did not go down! However am I to know whether he accepted or not?

"No - devotional service is the means to get free from the modes of nature - the point here is that you cannot say "I will do nothing" (Either spiritual or material) because it is impossible to do nothing - we are active by nature in a world which is active"

I agree. We cannot do nothing.

"No - you seem to think that a person who has given up on what the material world has to offer spends their time pining over the rememberances of material sense gratification - the point is that one moves on to better things, very quickly in fact, right in this life - just like th ehot pizza compared to the cold one - you don't think - "OH where is my beloved cold pizza" its more like "I can't believe I used to like eating that crap""

Why then do many priests fall into sex scandals? Sages turn corrupt? Et cetera, et cetera?

"Remove the suffering part of the pursuit of pleasure - this innvolves god however"

The slavery you have so far proposed seems like eternal suffering thus far!

"An intelligent person does not take part in the sources of misery, which are due to contact with the material senses. O son of Kuntī, such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and so the wise man does not delight in them."

What other pleasures can there be?

"Mockery? Obviously you are not talking about the green house effect, thinning ozone, acid rain, permanant smog, undrinkabale water, traffic that travels at a pace slower than walking, increased instances of Leukimea with micro wave exposure, cancer , aids etc etc"

All of which we are solving or have solved. Although admittedly, getting onto the Brooklyn Bridge was a pain in the rear end yesterday.

"Obviously you are not intimately familiar with the bodily problems of old people"

All of which are being solved.

"Well I imagine that if they are able to locate the soul they might be in for a few surprises -lol"

Such as?

"If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting."

So wait: You have to change your ways before you even become a devotee`? This is a system setting itself up to win, becase it is rigging the results!

"All habits change the character of man. ”


Yes"

Then it stands to reason that we could all become a dope fiend instead by doing the "Hare Heroin" ritual.

"Brings us back to mom and the nappies in the laundry"

Does she value and love her child?

"Actually there is a way around this prasadam "

How?

"If you understood that he had arrived at his castle by misusing the human form of life you may beg to differ"

Or he might have moved on up from being a monster in Hell, no?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"Point 1 - they have the right spelling of the word soma"

What do you have to show that all the other points are incorrect?

An absence of correlation to anything presnted in the vedas

"

Some LSD users have even claimed to have collective hallucinations, which gives minor credance to the fact that they are experiencing something legitimate (although I am extremely skeptical). Moreover, studies have even shown that deep meditation and prayer produce changes in the brain which could account for such "experiences" quite nicely.

Even if this is true its all mundane because it is just mental - we are talking about perceiving god, not whether one can perform such usless feats as reading minds etc

And what is the whole body of work and how does it entirely invalidate LSD?

Oner understands god by working on one's consciousness and making it more pure, not by sticking one's head down the hypothetical toilet

Why are we apparently divine souls stuck in a material universe because we "exercised our free will" for misery and somehow disconnected ourselves and arose from an infinite God of pure goodness?

You have given enough information in your question for the answer - it might make it easier to understand that we are not like god to begin with (unlimitedly supreme and infallible)

"And of course you are assuming that there is nobody who has seen god - like for instance suppose one is a physicist and is deeply familiar with the theory and practice because they work with such things practically every day - then a drug crazed person comes along with their nonsense in the name of physics - do you think the physicist can't smell the difference in half a second?"

They smell the difference in matters of religion, too. Why don't you discredit religion, then?

I do - I don't deny that there are bogus religions - I never said anything that goes by the name of religion is automatically bonafide - if you examined the epistemology thread you would see that

"On the contrary a grandparent does the same thing when they pretend to be a horse for their grandchild - at the very least the grandchild seems to like it - so does the grandparent too - if you think it is obnoxious it probably explains why you are in the material world to begin with"

Yet the idea is that the delusion ought to be joyful. Yet how could this act be considered such forever?

You would have to establish that love is in fact intrinsically delusional - its not like the child actually thinks they are riding a horse or that the grandparent actually thinks they are a horse - there is a whole subtle interplay which makes the exchange intensely valuable - in fact a person could hold those memories their entire life - why?

"But it is only recently that it has become a nationally endorsed activity probably numering in the millions world wide every year"

Shamefully, yes.

"I doubt such statements can said with authority"

Christopher Columbus even reported such practices amongst the American Indians he met when he first reached the New World.

But how many ? 2 in every 3?

"Obviously you are not including places like china and america in your data collection"

China has had some terrible abortion things, as well as America (30 million in 30 years), but even with such death tolls, the average rate of life is far higher than ever before.

I read somewhere (where???) that the average age (in cluding abortions) is somewhere around 45

"Rather than being simply satisfied with sleeping eating, mating and defending in simple natural ways (like animals) we have to dress these things up in the name of civilisation, by destroying the environment - in other words we inhibit our ability to approach the necessities of life by manufacturing millions of artificial needs. - at least an animal knows how to behave "

Yet are not these needs greater ways to enjoy things?

No because they innvolve greater suffering - like is it really more "advanced " to eat frozen food or fresh food? - Does food become more advanced if it is kept in a piece of advanced technology?

"Lol - and that middle path is impossible to traverse without spiritual intelligence"

How? People can easily realize that pain and pleasure are cousins of one another in life.

No doubt - but because they drive like idiots they smash from one side of the road to another

"Because their excess creates problems - its the whole nature of the mode of passion - which makes it more elevated than ignorance but not on grade with goodness (nectar in the beginning, poison in the end)"

I agree that excess causes problems. But why not indulge in proper portion?

Again - proper proportion means proper utilisation - proper utilisation requires that one have control of one's senses - and unless one has a higher tast there is no question of controlling the senses

"you miss out on the fourth - we get disgusted with our pleasure - like for instance how many people marry the person of their dreams just to find out later they are not the person of their dreams?"

We can sometimes get disgusted by pleasure. But if such is the case, well, we just get something else.

This is called bhoga (enjoyment) tyaga (renunciation) - it is the activity of materialistic culture and is just like a mad monkey jumping fromone fruitless treee to another

"They are just like artificial enjoyments - the living entity can only exist in an atmosphere of enjoyment, and the only atmosphere of enjoyment is the spiritual world - if we have walked out of that we are left with a shoddy imitation that maintains its charm as long as we maintain the determination to see it as charming (ie illusion)"

How is it an artificial enjoyment? It is as real as anything else.

But you cannot appreciate its enjoyment for extended periods - can you confidently name any sense pleasure you would like to have for eternity (like would you like to swim for eternity, even if it was eternally hot, would you like to kiss someone for eternity) - our pleasures in material life have to be regulated otherwise they become disgusting and repulsive

"No - she is considered slightly less beautiful -"

Less beautiful = Comparatively ugly.

I have never heard such women described as such - "hey she looks comparatively less ugly than that one don't you think?" - in other words your argument is completely rhetorical

A pile of dog excrement is less beautiful than a flowering tree by a lot.

There fore you see people decorate their gardens with a variety of trees - they even try to avoid placing dog stool around it just to give it a dualistic edge to make the trees more beautiful

"That uniqueness of the mother example is that she is not getting paid - that is why it is called unmotivated service"

She is paid by the joy and value she has placed on her child.

Exactly - the revenue from acts of pure love are pure love

"God hates evil? Evil is absence of knowledge of god and goodness is knowledge of god - in that sense god hates evil by making all arrangement fro us to know him - our reluctance to co-operate is evil - but god lets it slide in the material world since we have an eternity to get our act together"

If God is truly perfectly good, then allowing us ignorance - evil - is an act of evil itself, specifically as it is within his power to reveal to us the truth. Thus, GOd is not all good.

But he does reveal the truth - can't say you have never heard of a scripture - and if you are too apathetic or disinterested to apply whats in it who's fault is that ? If I tell you "don't cross the road - there is no need and its dangerous" but you cross the road and get hit who's fault is it?

"
From god's perspective the only dysfunctional aspect of the material creation are the conditioned living entities, which is why the material world is the perfect arrangement for persons possessed of such sentiments"

Yet there is also evil to be found there. How can a perfect being tolerate such?

Nope - there's no evil except ignorance of god - everything else "good" "evil" is just relative to situation - like it may be evil if your house gets robbed but it would be pretty good for the thief

"The point of this verse is that you cannot really expect a person to renounce something until they have experience of something better - hence the way of spiritual advancement usually takes the path of god gradually becoming more apparent to the degree that one gives up inferior things along the way to enable progress - like for instance if you had offerred the pineapple to god before eating it, you could have enjoyed the pineapple and made spiritual advancement at the same time"

Yet God would have refused the pineapple as no such actions on his part would have occurred.

You don't know how god accept things - he accepts the love with which the offering is made - he is not so cruel as to eat your pineapple and leave you with nothing (which would probably be what would happen if you offerrred it to anyone except your mother)

Let me do a bit of an experiment. I shall offer God ten seconds to take a sip of water, before I take his.

Lo and behold, the water did not go down! However am I to know whether he accepted or not?

This
http://brahmasamhita.com/5/32/en
explains how god can take things just by seeing, hearing, etc
You don't understand that god is not reciprocating with your glass of water but your consciousness

"No - you seem to think that a person who has given up on what the material world has to offer spends their time pining over the rememberances of material sense gratification - the point is that one moves on to better things, very quickly in fact, right in this life - just like th ehot pizza compared to the cold one - you don't think - "OH where is my beloved cold pizza" its more like "I can't believe I used to like eating that crap""

Why then do many priests fall into sex scandals? Sages turn corrupt? Et cetera, et cetera?

Because of offenses - which are distinct from sins - a sin is an offense but an offense may not be necessarily a sin - offenses inhibit spiritual knowledge (offenses to other devotees, offenses to god, offenses to scripture - and the most dangerous one of all - offenses to god's name) - or alternatively they just never had a taste of spiritual life to begin with and it was all a bluff

"Remove the suffering part of the pursuit of pleasure - this innvolves god however"

The slavery you have so far proposed seems like eternal suffering thus far!

Don't worry - you are probably just imagning god is just like you

"An intelligent person does not take part in the sources of misery, which are due to contact with the material senses. O son of Kuntī, such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and so the wise man does not delight in them."

What other pleasures can there be?

As much as I hate to use the word platonic, I think platonic pleasure is the closest thing I can say for your understanding

"Mockery? Obviously you are not talking about the green house effect, thinning ozone, acid rain, permanant smog, undrinkabale water, traffic that travels at a pace slower than walking, increased instances of Leukimea with micro wave exposure, cancer , aids etc etc"

All of which we are solving or have solved. Although admittedly, getting onto the Brooklyn Bridge was a pain in the rear end yesterday.

Solving? More like screwing up more - recently they had an agreement to reduce green house emissions by 20% - unfortunately they also decided to establish new power stations in the next 20 years that will see an increase in emmisions by 40% - 2 step forwards and one step back - and get this - now that the polar caps in the sth pole are melthing and revealing land mining companies ar egetting excited at the prospect of mining them for oil - every cloud (even a smog one) has a silver lining I guess

"Obviously you are not intimately familiar with the bodily problems of old people"

All of which are being solved.

solved ? They aren't even being paid for what to speak of solved?

"Well I imagine that if they are able to locate the soul they might be in for a few surprises -lol"

Such as?

How it does not display material qualities

So wait: You have to change your ways before you even become a devotee`? This is a system setting itself up to win, becase it is rigging the results!

The point is that sincerity is qualified by actions rather than words

"All habits change the character of man. ”


Yes"

Then it stands to reason that we could all become a dope fiend instead by doing the "Hare Heroin" ritual.

I'll leave it up to you if thats what you want to try

"Brings us back to mom and the nappies in the laundry"

Does she value and love her child?

definitely

"Actually there is a way around this prasadam "

How?

You can eat stuff that is related to god even though you are damn sure you want to have nothing to do with god - kind of like holy water in the form of cheese (or whatever else you find palatable, provided it is vegetarian)

"If you understood that he had arrived at his castle by misusing the human form of life you may beg to differ"

Or he might have moved on up from being a monster in Hell, no?

So his picture is looking worse - not only did he become a worm by being a messed up human but he also became a messed up resident of hell as well before that

 

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

"An absence of correlation to anything presnted in the vedas"

It quotes them and attempts to everything to it.

"Even if this is true its all mundane because it is just mental - we are talking about perceiving god, not whether one can perform such usless feats as reading minds etc"

All experiences are mental. Even "transcendental" experiences. LSD provides such "mental experiences" which vindicate God to many.

"Oner understands god by working on one's consciousness and making it more pure, not by sticking one's head down the hypothetical toilet "

Many associate LSD experiences with becoming more "spiritual".

"You have given enough information in your question for the answer - it might make it easier to understand that we are not like god to begin with (unlimitedly supreme and infallible)"

If we emerged from God, how can we not share in his essence? Moreover, I was rhetorically asking such a question.

"I do - I don't deny that there are bogus religions - I never said anything that goes by the name of religion is automatically bonafide - if you examined the epistemology thread you would see that"

It is good that you allow this. However, you claim that "transcendental experiences" validate religion and many on LSD claim to have those. You claim that is also one of the ways we can judge religion, by the "epistemology making the ontology". How can you then say it is -invalid-?

"You would have to establish that love is in fact intrinsically delusional - its not like the child actually thinks they are riding a horse or that the grandparent actually thinks they are a horse - there is a whole subtle interplay which makes the exchange intensely valuable - in fact a person could hold those memories their entire life - why?"

Indeed they could. It is a joyous little distraction. Yet at the same time, it is not something anyone with a sane mind would want to do for eternity, specifically if there is nothing whatsoever to gain from it at all. Playing "horsie" with God forever is a sure fire way to find oneself in a Hell.

"But how many ? 2 in every 3?"

It was common enough for him to witness routinely.

"I read somewhere (where???) that the average age (in cluding abortions) is somewhere around 45"

I'd have to look that up. But considering the average age in America is 75...

"No because they innvolve greater suffering - like is it really more "advanced " to eat frozen food or fresh food? - Does food become more advanced if it is kept in a piece of advanced technology?"

In so much as it has conquered nature? Yes. In so much that it tastes worse? No. In so much as this might change? Yes.

"No doubt - but because they drive like idiots they smash from one side of the road to another"

Why not enjoy the pleasure and accept the pain? This seems rational to me.

"Again - proper proportion means proper utilisation - proper utilisation requires that one have control of one's senses - and unless one has a higher tast there is no question of controlling the senses"

One needn't have God for this. One could simply say it is unmanly, or unbefitting a superior person, et cetera, et cetera.

"This is called bhoga (enjoyment) tyaga (renunciation) - it is the activity of materialistic culture and is just like a mad monkey jumping fromone fruitless treee to another"

You take what one needs and then moves on. How is this mad?

"But you cannot appreciate its enjoyment for extended periods - can you confidently name any sense pleasure you would like to have for eternity (like would you like to swim for eternity, even if it was eternally hot, would you like to kiss someone for eternity) - our pleasures in material life have to be regulated otherwise they become disgusting and repulsive"

I would like to enjoy the opportunity for such pleasures for eternity, but no, I will agree with you that no specific pleasure I can think of could be eternally desired.

"I have never heard such women described as such - "hey she looks comparatively less ugly than that one don't you think?" - in other words your argument is completely rhetorical"

The description might not be used, but the idea is there.

"There fore you see people decorate their gardens with a variety of trees - they even try to avoid placing dog stool around it just to give it a dualistic edge to make the trees more beautiful"

Some people are wont to appear with less attractive people for that effect, though.

"Exactly - the revenue from acts of pure love are pure love"

Which makes it selfish, like all other things.

"But he does reveal the truth - can't say you have never heard of a scripture - and if you are too apathetic or disinterested to apply whats in it who's fault is that ? If I tell you "don't cross the road - there is no need and its dangerous" but you cross the road and get hit who's fault is it?"

If you created the road, its dangers, and had the power to forcefully stop me - you.

Moreover, an imperfect effort for a perfectly good being does not cut it.

"Nope - there's no evil except ignorance of god - everything else "good" "evil" is just relative to situation - like it may be evil if your house gets robbed but it would be pretty good for the thief"

There is plenty ignorance of God in the material world. It is thus an eternal rebuke against God.

"You don't know how god accept things - he accepts the love with which the offering is made - he is not so cruel as to eat your pineapple and leave you with nothing (which would probably be what would happen if you offerrred it to anyone except your mother)"

And how do I know this?

"This
http://brahmasamhita.com/5/32/en
explains how god can take things just by seeing, hearing, etc
You don't understand that god is not reciprocating with your glass of water but your consciousness"

This is rather like proving there exists an invisible, intangible man, by saying he answers by being silent.

"Because of offenses - which are distinct from sins - a sin is an offense but an offense may not be necessarily a sin - offenses inhibit spiritual knowledge (offenses to other devotees, offenses to god, offenses to scripture - and the most dangerous one of all - offenses to god's name) - or alternatively they just never had a taste of spiritual life to begin with and it was all a bluff

Yet you claimed that people do not seek after cold pizza once they have hot pizza. Why then would the priest want to have sex with some woman or man?

"As much as I hate to use the word platonic, I think platonic pleasure is the closest thing I can say for your understanding"

The idea of Platonic pleasures do not seem very pleasurable at all. They seem "serenely contemplative", perhaps. But they do not share in any of the intensity or of the variety of pleasures distinctly material. Moreover, they do not seem to be any less "repugnant if pursued for eternity".

"Solving? More like screwing up more - recently they had an agreement to reduce green house emissions by 20% - unfortunately they also decided to establish new power stations in the next 20 years that will see an increase in emmisions by 40% - 2 step forwards and one step back - and get this - now that the polar caps in the sth pole are melthing and revealing land mining companies ar egetting excited at the prospect of mining them for oil - every cloud (even a smog one) has a silver lining I guess"

They will be solved in time, and if not, oh well, we shall simply find other things to do.

"solved ? They aren't even being paid for what to speak of solved?"

There are plenty of surgeries and medicines that prop up for such.

"How it does not display material qualities"

Then they'd simply use its immaterial qualities for their usages.

"The point is that sincerity is qualified by actions rather than words"

Actions in accord with a system that must be accepted before it works and then works because it rigs the results.

"I'll leave it up to you if thats what you want to try"

With heroin, at least one is assured of ecstasy. One could even say that heroin shares a quality that God does not have. If you quit it, you are in monsterous pain!

"definitely"

Then the mother is gaining a selfish benefit (which is fine).

"You can eat stuff that is related to god even though you are damn sure you want to have nothing to do with god - kind of like holy water in the form of cheese (or whatever else you find palatable, provided it is vegetarian)"

And then you get some benefit out of this?

"So his picture is looking worse - not only did he become a worm by being a messed up human but he also became a messed up resident of hell as well before that "

Depends if by "messed up" you mean "elevated from". Animals are supposed to be greater than denizens of Hell, no?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince_James

It quotes them and attempts to everything to it.

The quotes were not extensive - the conclusions were ridiculous - and besides, before you venture onto topics of soma, its production and utilisation, you have to be familiar with a whole range of topics (such as Bhuloka, Bhuvaloka, Swaloka, Mahaloka, Janaloka, Tapaloka, devas, amrta etcetc) otherwise its just a waste of time

"Even if this is true its all mundane because it is just mental - we are talking about perceiving god, not whether one can perform such usless feats as reading minds etc"

All experiences are mental. Even "transcendental" experiences. LSD provides such "mental experiences" which vindicate God to many.

If a transcendental experience was mental it would not be transcendental

"Oner understands god by working on one's consciousness and making it more pure, not by sticking one's head down the hypothetical toilet "

Many associate LSD experiences with becoming more "spiritual".

lol - no doubt if you examine what they mean by "spiritual" it usually means not working so hard and having more recreational sex - hence the toilet analogy

"You have given enough information in your question for the answer - it might make it easier to understand that we are not like god to begin with (unlimitedly supreme and infallible)"

If we emerged from God, how can we not share in his essence? Moreover, I was rhetorically asking such a question.

Explains why you are satisfied with a rhetorical answer I guess

"I do - I don't deny that there are bogus religions - I never said anything that goes by the name of religion is automatically bonafide - if you examined the epistemology thread you would see that"

It is good that you allow this. However, you claim that "transcendental experiences" validate religion and many on LSD claim to have those. You claim that is also one of the ways we can judge religion, by the "epistemology making the ontology". How can you then say it is -invalid-?

Quite simply it violates the epistemology - the process is not confirmed by scripture (knowing god entails surrendering to him- not taking a tab), the process is transcendental (is a chemical transcendental), the realisations or ontological conclusions tally with scriptural descriptions - it get backs to the physicist - if someone said they saw the atoms split while on LSD the whole thing doesn't make sense from beginning to end from an educated physicists point of view - same with religion

"You would have to establish that love is in fact intrinsically delusional - its not like the child actually thinks they are riding a horse or that the grandparent actually thinks they are a horse - there is a whole subtle interplay which makes the exchange intensely valuable - in fact a person could hold those memories their entire life - why?"

Indeed they could. It is a joyous little distraction. Yet at the same time, it is not something anyone with a sane mind would want to do for eternity, specifically if there is nothing whatsoever to gain from it at all. Playing "horsie" with God forever is a sure fire way to find oneself in a Hell.

It was meant to indicate the dynamic that variety operates on in the spiritual world - in fact this is the same variety that the material world operates on - its not like people spend 10 hours a day at some ridiculous job seperated from loved ones because its what they want - on the contrary it is their intense longing for their loved ones that enables them to tolerate the rigours of their occupations

"But how many ? 2 in every 3?"

It was common enough for him to witness routinely.

"routinely" is a bit vague don't you think - and even then its only one civilisation in one part of the world - its not like the red indians influenced the world with their culture

"No because they innvolve greater suffering - like is it really more "advanced " to eat frozen food or fresh food? - Does food become more advanced if it is kept in a piece of advanced technology?"

In so much as it has conquered nature? Yes.

It hasn't even done that - just requires a little earthquake to disturb your electricity supply and your freezer is useless

"No doubt - but because they drive like idiots they smash from one side of the road to another"

Why not enjoy the pleasure and accept the pain? This seems rational to me.

Safe choice since in the material world you don't have any other option -lol

"Again - proper proportion means proper utilisation - proper utilisation requires that one have control of one's senses - and unless one has a higher tast there is no question of controlling the senses"

One needn't have God for this. One could simply say it is unmanly, or unbefitting a superior person, et cetera, et cetera.

But this a fallible conviction because the senses are so strong and impetuous that they can overtake the mind of a man of discrimination

"This is called bhoga (enjoyment) tyaga (renunciation) - it is the activity of materialistic culture and is just like a mad monkey jumping fromone fruitless treee to another"

You take what one needs and then moves on. How is this mad?

Because one madly acquires something with the view to enjoy it, but upon acquiring it realises it doesn't match one's liking and thus discards it - it is mad because it never stabilises on the platform of satisfaction - it is not so much what one needs but what one feels one needs due to unnecessary wants - its a waste of time because time is valuable and better spent in other endeavours

I would like to enjoy the opportunity for such pleasures for eternity, but no, I will agree with you that no specific pleasure I can think of could be eternally desired.

This is why material enjoyment is inferior

"There fore you see people decorate their gardens with a variety of trees - they even try to avoid placing dog stool around it just to give it a dualistic edge to make the trees more beautiful"

Some people are wont to appear with less attractive people for that effect, though.

then its merely a type of glamour in the guise of anti glamour - thesis to antithesis abck to thesis - the grunge fashion trend of the nineties was a classic but by no means unique example

"Exactly - the revenue from acts of pure love are pure love"

Which makes it selfish, like all other things.

except that pure love can not exist in the atmosphere of selfishness

"But he does reveal the truth - can't say you have never heard of a scripture - and if you are too apathetic or disinterested to apply whats in it who's fault is that ? If I tell you "don't cross the road - there is no need and its dangerous" but you cross the road and get hit who's fault is it?"

If you created the road, its dangers, and had the power to forcefully stop me - you.

so its the government's fault that people are in jail since they built the jail?

Moreover, an imperfect effort for a perfectly good being does not cut it.

Nothing wrong with his effort - your effort doesn't come up so well under scrutiny though - actually this is the type of uselessness advocated by pathetic strains of christianity "Oh god I am so helpless - until you take control of my life I have no other option but to live like a hog" - a 10th class person is not a suitable candidate for god's mercy

"Nope - there's no evil except ignorance of god - everything else "good" "evil" is just relative to situation - like it may be evil if your house gets robbed but it would be pretty good for the thief"

There is plenty ignorance of God in the material world. It is thus an eternal rebuke against God.

So god does his part to dismiss that ignorance - and we do our part to maintain it - hence life in the material world continues for plenty of people

"You don't know how god accept things - he accepts the love with which the

offering is made - he is not so cruel as to eat your pineapple and leave you with nothing (which would probably be what would happen if you offerrred it to anyone except your mother)"

And how do I know this?

offer th e pineapple to your mother and see for your self

"This
http://brahmasamhita.com/5/32/en
explains how god can take things just by seeing, hearing, etc
You don't understand that god is not reciprocating with your glass of water but your consciousness"

This is rather like proving there exists an invisible, intangible man, by saying he answers by being silent.

Only because you don't apply the process

"Because of offenses - which are distinct from sins - a sin is an offense but an offense may not be necessarily a sin - offenses inhibit spiritual knowledge (offenses to other devotees, offenses to god, offenses to scripture - and the most dangerous one of all - offenses to god's name) - or alternatively they just never had a taste of spiritual life to begin with and it was all a bluff

Yet you claimed that people do not seek after cold pizza once they have hot pizza. Why then would the priest want to have sex with some woman or man?

Because they never ate the hot pizza inthe first place or due to the nature of offenses that taste is covered, just as our taste of th spiritual world was covered when we emerged in the material world to enable us to delight in cold pizza.

"As much as I hate to use the word platonic, I think platonic pleasure is the closest thing I can say for your understanding"

The idea of Platonic pleasures do not seem very pleasurable at all. They seem "serenely contemplative", perhaps.

Thats why I was reluctant to use the word because you would see it merely as a mental ideal rather than a tangible item

But they do not share in any of the intensity or of the variety of pleasures distinctly material. Moreover, they do not seem to be any less "repugnant if pursued for eternity".

The point is that they are actually composed of a superior quality - its just like a cake is the platonic reality and the reflection of the cake in a mirror is the reality of the material world - looks like the real thing but it has no taste

"Solving? More like screwing up more - recently they had an agreement to reduce green house emissions by 20% - unfortunately they also decided to establish new power stations in the next 20 years that will see an increase in emmisions by 40% - 2 step forwards and one step back - and get this - now that the polar caps in the sth pole are melthing and revealing land mining companies ar egetting excited at the prospect of mining them for oil - every cloud (even a smog one) has a silver lining I guess"

They will be solved in time, and if not, oh well, we shall simply find other things to do.

I think it was einatein who said the intelligence that goes in to solving our problems has to be greater than the intelligence that went in to creating them

"solved ? They aren't even being paid for what to speak of solved?"

There are plenty of surgeries and medicines that prop up for such.

But people still die nonetheless - the only difference is that they die after spending more money

"How it does not display material qualities"

Then they'd simply use its immaterial qualities for their usages.

Lol - that's all I can say -Lol

"The point is that sincerity is qualified by actions rather than words"

Actions in accord with a system that must be accepted before it works and then works because it rigs the results.

If you sincerely want to get a glass of water it won't work if you approach a lawn mower, no matter how sincere you are

"I'll leave it up to you if thats what you want to try"

With heroin, at least one is assured of ecstasy.

Lol - by all means be my guest

"definitely"

Then the mother is gaining a selfish benefit (which is fine).

First you have to establish that love and value is selfish - perhaps you can establish that in english because th eenglish language is so crude - but when you start talking about asakti (a feeling of voidness in the absence of the beloved article) , bhava (Reluctance to engage the essence of one's emmotions in anything but the beloved article) and prema (This cannot be described) , selfishness is not on the scene - the mother is not a pure example - the mother is the closest thing one can come to example of in the material world

"You can eat stuff that is related to god even though you are damn sure you want to have nothing to do with god - kind of like holy water in the form of cheese (or whatever else you find palatable, provided it is vegetarian)"

And then you get some benefit out of this?

Yes - but it is the slow path , which seems to be the one you are adamant on advocating

"So his picture is looking worse - not only did he become a worm by being a messed up human but he also became a messed up resident of hell as well before that "

Depends if by "messed up" you mean "elevated from". Animals are supposed to be greater than denizens of Hell, no

they are still considered less than humans, in the sense its more difficult for a worm to approach the absolute truth

 

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

"The quotes were not extensive - the conclusions were ridiculous - and besides, before you venture onto topics of soma, its production and utilisation, you have to be familiar with a whole range of topics (such as Bhuloka, Bhuvaloka, Swaloka, Mahaloka, Janaloka, Tapaloka, devas, amrta etcetc) otherwise its just a waste of time"

Perhaps you ought to have an "expert" re-write the article then. Apparently it is well accepted.

"If a transcendental experience was mental it would not be transcendental

So you do not experience transcendental things through the mind?

"lol - no doubt if you examine what they mean by "spiritual" it usually means not working so hard and having more recreational sex - hence the toilet analogy"

Actually, most people I have known who have used it, remark a greater feeling of compassion and interconnectedness, greater pursuit of spiritual things, a more spiritual worldview, et cetera.

"Quite simply it violates the epistemology - the process is not confirmed by scripture (knowing god entails surrendering to him- not taking a tab)"

Psychedelic substances are used religiously the world over.

"d by scripture (knowing god entails surrendering to him- not taking a tab), the process is transcendental (is a chemical transcendental)"

Evidence suggests that chemical interactions are partially to blame for "transcendental experiences".

"the realisations or ontological conclusions tally with scriptural descriptions"

Actually, the guys who I know who have taken LSD, are pretty close to Hinduism. In fact, I've had arguments pretty much the same as I have with you with them, even to the point where one of them remarked that I sounded like an LaVeyian Satanist.

"It was meant to indicate the dynamic that variety operates on in the spiritual world - in fact this is the same variety that the material world operates on - its not like people spend 10 hours a day at some ridiculous job seperated from loved ones because its what they want - on the contrary it is their intense longing for their loved ones that enables them to tolerate the rigours of their occupations "

So what: Our love of God would make being a slave of him tolerable?

""routinely" is a bit vague don't you think - and even then its only one civilisation in one part of the world - its not like the red indians influenced the world with their culture"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

People have been murdering their children since time immemorial.

"It hasn't even done that - just requires a little earthquake to disturb your electricity supply and your freezer is useless"

Eventually even Earthquakes will be predicted and mitigated.

"Safe choice since in the material world you don't have any other option -lol"

Yep.

"But this a fallible conviction because the senses are so strong and impetuous that they can overtake the mind of a man of discrimination"

They overtake the mind of a "Godly man" just as easily.

"Because one madly acquires something with the view to enjoy it, but upon acquiring it realises it doesn't match one's liking and thus discards it - it is mad because it never stabilises on the platform of satisfaction - it is not so much what one needs but what one feels one needs due to unnecessary wants - its a waste of time because time is valuable and better spent in other endeavours"

What other endeavours are there?

Satisfaction can be attained, but only for a relatively brief time. So it is. We go onto something else and enjoy that. There is no end to satisfaction, only the satisfaction of particular things.

"This is why material enjoyment is inferior

On the contrary, I say it is superior because of this. Variety is the spice of life. If we were not compelled to do more, how close to rocks we would be!

"then its merely a type of glamour in the guise of anti glamour - thesis to antithesis abck to thesis - the grunge fashion trend of the nineties was a classic but by no means unique example"

Yes, it is a pretty backwards way of displaying beauty. But you know what Oscar Wilde said, "And, after all, what is a fashion? From the artistic point of view, it is usually a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months."

"except that pure love can not exist in the atmosphere of selfishness"

Love = A value. Attainment of love = An attainment of value. Value = Selfish. Thus, love = selfish.

Like all things. And this is not bad, either.

"so its the government's fault that people are in jail since they built the jail?"

If they also devised every other aspect of the crime and were in the power to stop it, yes.

"Nothing wrong with his effort - your effort doesn't come up so well under scrutiny though - actually this is the type of uselessness advocated by pathetic strains of christianity "Oh god I am so helpless - until you take control of my life I have no other option but to live like a hog" - a 10th class person is not a suitable candidate for god's mercy"

You admit that God has the power to do as he wills, yes? That he can make any outcome he could ever desire, yes?

"So god does his part to dismiss that ignorance - and we do our part to maintain it - hence life in the material world continues for plenty of people'

God cannot fail. Nor make a half-assed attempt.

"offer th e pineapple to your mother and see for your self"

I'll try next time.

"Only because you don't apply the process"

The process which makes me believe in the invisible, intangible man, that answers by being silent.

"Because they never ate the hot pizza inthe first place or due to the nature of offenses that taste is covered, just as our taste of th spiritual world was covered when we emerged in the material world to enable us to delight in cold pizza."

So basically you are claiming that anyone which disproves your system is actually flawed.

How conveinent.

"Thats why I was reluctant to use the word because you would see it merely as a mental ideal rather than a tangible item"

So you claim that we'd have a "tangible item" of pleasures in this spiritual realm that seems, in actuality, devoid of pleasures?

"The point is that they are actually composed of a superior quality - its just like a cake is the platonic reality and the reflection of the cake in a mirror is the reality of the material world - looks like the real thing but it has no taste"

What "superior quality" would these pleasures have to remain un-repugnant if pursued eternally as the only obsession?

"I think it was einatein who said the intelligence that goes in to solving our problems has to be greater than the intelligence that went in to creating them"

Which it is, as we grow by leaps and bounds intellectually as a species.

"But people still die nonetheless - the only difference is that they die after spending more money"

This may one day change.

"If you sincerely want to get a glass of water it won't work if you approach a lawn mower, no matter how sincere you are"

Indeed. But if you claim that such sincerity can work for five minutes then give all these reasons why this sincerity couldn't work in five minutes...

"First you have to establish that love and value is selfish - perhaps you can establish that in english because th eenglish language is so crude - but when you start talking about asakti (a feeling of voidness in the absence of the beloved article) , bhava (Reluctance to engage the essence of one's emmotions in anything but the beloved article) and prema (This cannot be described) , selfishness is not on the scene - the mother is not a pure example - the mother is the closest thing one can come to example of in the material world"

I can give you an extensive argument if you'd like.

"Yes - but it is the slow path , which seems to be the one you are adamant on advocating"

So we get magical God points from eating God food? And why must it be vegetarian?

Does not God love Texans and their obsession with beef?


"they are still considered less than humans, in the sense its more difficult for a worm to approach the absolute truth "

Yes, but they certainly are better than demonic entities in Hell, no?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince james

"The quotes were not extensive - the conclusions were ridiculous - and besides, before you venture onto topics of soma, its production and utilisation, you have to be familiar with a whole range of topics (such as Bhuloka, Bhuvaloka, Swaloka, Mahaloka, Janaloka, Tapaloka, devas, amrta etcetc) otherwise its just a waste of time"

Perhaps you ought to have an "expert" re-write the article then. Apparently it is well accepted.

- but in the end soma is just a material thing anyway - its not transcendental

"lol - no doubt if you examine what they mean by "spiritual" it usually means not working so hard and having more recreational sex - hence the toilet analogy"

Actually, most people I have known who have used it, remark a greater feeling of compassion and interconnectedness, greater pursuit of spiritual things, a more spiritual worldview, et cetera.

- hence less work and more sex - thats the bottom line of it - despite all the hype about noble human values nothing practical eventuates - there is a whole "science" of developing these qualities and requires a lot more than a romantic notion

"Quite simply it violates the epistemology - the process is not confirmed by scripture (knowing god entails surrendering to him- not taking a tab)"

Psychedelic substances are used religiously the world over.

Then they are religions in the mode of ignorance, or in the case of the propaganda of T. Leary and co, religion in the mode of economic development

"d by scripture (knowing god entails surrendering to him- not taking a tab), the process is transcendental (is a chemical transcendental)"

Evidence suggests that chemical interactions are partially to blame for "transcendental experiences".

I find that hard to believe since there is no clear understanding how even normal mundane consciousness is a materially assessable phenomena, what to speak of transcendental - and further what constitutes an actual transcendental experience (is loosing consciousness in a puddle of vomit transcendental?)

"the realisations or ontological conclusions tally with scriptural descriptions"

Actually, the guys who I know who have taken LSD, are pretty close to Hinduism.

Except when it comes to taking LSD, since there is no scriptural reference to that - in fact there are numerous referenecs prohibiting it, or suggesting it is only valid for those who are addicted to ignorant modes of living

In fact, I've had arguments pretty much the same as I have with you with them, even to the point where one of them remarked that I sounded like an LaVeyian Satanist.

They have no foundation of scriptural knowledge - to understand scripture one must be a brahman (socialised around principles in goodness) - the moment one takes intoxication one is automaically a sudra (ignorance), or less than a sudra

"It was meant to indicate the dynamic that variety operates on in the spiritual world - in fact this is the same variety that the material world operates on - its not like people spend 10 hours a day at some ridiculous job seperated from loved ones because its what they want - on the contrary it is their intense longing for their loved ones that enables them to tolerate the rigours of their occupations "

So what: Our love of God would make being a slave of him tolerable?

If love of a mundane person makes being a slave tolerable, what to speak of god? The benefits of being a slave of god is that you are not a slave to wicked persons (Even if you are a slave to your own material senses you still have a wicked master)

""routinely" is a bit vague don't you think - and even then its only one civilisation in one part of the world - its not like the red indians influenced the world with their culture"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

People have been murdering their children since time immemorial.

What I am saying is that even a fool could surmise that abortion is increasing in industrial society -

"It hasn't even done that - just requires a little earthquake to disturb your electricity supply and your freezer is useless"

Eventually even Earthquakes will be predicted and mitigated.

Obviously you have a lot of faith in science - lol

"But this a fallible conviction because the senses are so strong and impetuous that they can overtake the mind of a man of discrimination"

They overtake the mind of a "Godly man" just as easily.

On the contrary - they don't

"Because one madly acquires something with the view to enjoy it, but upon acquiring it realises it doesn't match one's liking and thus discards it - it is mad because it never stabilises on the platform of satisfaction - it is not so much what one needs but what one feels one needs due to unnecessary wants - its a waste of time because time is valuable and better spent in other endeavours"

What other endeavours are there?

spiritual endeavours - in other words rather than focusing on what "I" want to be happy, one focuses on what god wants, and lo and behold one experiences a more substantial level of happiness

Satisfaction can be attained, but only for a relatively brief time. So it is. We go onto something else and enjoy that. There is no end to satisfaction, only the satisfaction of particular things.

This is why people are tortured by their desires in material life

"This is why material enjoyment is inferior

On the contrary, I say it is superior because of this. Variety is the spice of life. If we were not compelled to do more, how close to rocks we would be!

But this variety is available in a platonic form minus the inherant faults of suffering - how is sweet rice with sand superior to sweet rice without sand?

"so its the government's fault that people are in jail since they built the jail?"

If they also devised every other aspect of the crime and were in the power to stop it, yes.

But god didn't demand that one perform sinful activity - we did - for instance is it the manufacturer of a hamer's fault if a person beats themself over he head with it?

"Nothing wrong with his effort - your effort doesn't come up so well under scrutiny though - actually this is the type of uselessness advocated by pathetic strains of christianity "Oh god I am so helpless - until you take control of my life I have no other option but to live like a hog" - a 10th class person is not a suitable candidate for god's mercy"

You admit that God has the power to do as he wills, yes? That he can make any outcome he could ever desire, yes?

And his desire is that we properly utilise our desire, which is what the mateial world is teaching 24 hours a day - if you over eat the wrong food at the wrong time - immediately stomach trouble and you fast for three days - a little this way or that way and we get delivered a harsh result - all in the name of teaching us self control -

"So god does his part to dismiss that ignorance - and we do our part to maintain it - hence life in the material world continues for plenty of people'

God cannot fail. Nor make a half-assed attempt.

god has an etenity to be successful

"Only because you don't apply the process"

The process which makes me believe in the invisible, intangible man, that answers by being silent.

No - the process that innvolves contolling one's senses from inferior engagements

"Because they never ate the hot pizza inthe first place or due to the nature of offenses that taste is covered, just as our taste of th spiritual world was covered when we emerged in the material world to enable us to delight in cold pizza."

So basically you are claiming that anyone which disproves your system is actually flawed.

How conveinent.

If a person fails at harvard what would you think?

"Thats why I was reluctant to use the word because you would see it merely as a mental ideal rather than a tangible item"

So you claim that we'd have a "tangible item" of pleasures in this spiritual realm that seems, in actuality, devoid of pleasures?

actually the material world is devoid of pleasures - teh only tangible pleasures exist in the spiritual world - all we have in the material world is a feeling of - "Hey I am not sufering at the moment - that must mean I am happy"

"The point is that they are actually composed of a superior quality - its just like a cake is the platonic reality and the reflection of the cake in a mirror is the reality of the material world - looks like the real thing but it has no taste"

What "superior quality" would these pleasures have to remain un-repugnant if pursued eternally as the only obsession?

They are contingent on the direct experience of god - unlike material pleasures

"I think it was einatein who said the intelligence that goes in to solving our problems has to be greater than the intelligence that went in to creating them"

Which it is, as we grow by leaps and bounds intellectually as a species.

In other words our stupidity increases on par with our intelligence

"But people still die nonetheless - the only difference is that they die after spending more money"

This may one day change.

lol - one day also may never come

"If you sincerely want to get a glass of water it won't work if you approach a lawn mower, no matter how sincere you are"

Indeed. But if you claim that such sincerity can work for five minutes then give all these reasons why this sincerity couldn't work in five minutes...

lol - well first you have to undersatnd what sincerity in relation to aproaching god means - its possible to be so insincere taht one cannot conceive of sincerity

"First you have to establish that love and value is selfish - perhaps you can establish that in english because th eenglish language is so crude - but when you start talking about asakti (a feeling of voidness in the absence of the beloved article) , bhava (Reluctance to engage the essence of one's emmotions in anything but the beloved article) and prema (This cannot be described) , selfishness is not on the scene - the mother is not a pure example - the mother is the closest thing one can come to example of in the material world"

I can give you an extensive argument if you'd like.

If a person cannot fel happy if their object of love does not exist (inother words they are wling to sacrifice their very life for the sake of the beloved), how is that selfish, since the very concept of self can potentially be extinguished in the process of love?

"they are still considered less than humans, in the sense its more difficult for a worm to approach the absolute truth "

Yes, but they certainly are better than demonic entities in Hell, no?

And still doing a damn sight worse then a human being, which is what they were before they screwed up whole sale

 

[Prince_James]

lightgigantic:

"- but in the end soma is just a material thing anyway - its not transcendental"

It seemingly is supposed to be, according to the Vedas.

"- hence less work and more sex - thats the bottom line of it - despite all the hype about noble human values nothing practical eventuates - there is a whole "science" of developing these qualities and requires a lot more than a romantic notion"

They do have a lot of sex (and I do mean -a lot- of sex) but actually, that isn't what they mean. They mean things more "concretely" spiritual, as it were.

"Then they are religions in the mode of ignorance, or in the case of the propaganda of T. Leary and co, religion in the mode of economic development"

Perhaps. I do not make such broad generalizations of practices transcending cultures and continents.

"I find that hard to believe since there is no clear understanding how even normal mundane consciousness is a materially assessable phenomena, what to speak of transcendental - and further what constitutes an actual transcendental experience (is loosing consciousness in a puddle of vomit transcendental?)"

We actually have much knowledge about how chemicals affect the mind and the "spirit". Or are you claiming we can't induce highs and such?

"Except when it comes to taking LSD, since there is no scriptural reference to that - in fact there are numerous referenecs prohibiting it, or suggesting it is only valid for those who are addicted to ignorant modes of living"

Such as?

"They have no foundation of scriptural knowledge - to understand scripture one must be a brahman (socialised around principles in goodness) - the moment one takes intoxication one is automaically a sudra (ignorance), or less than a sudra"

And if this intoxication doesn't deprive one of one's senses, but enhances them evidently?

"If love of a mundane person makes being a slave tolerable, what to speak of god? The benefits of being a slave of god is that you are not a slave to wicked persons (Even if you are a slave to your own material senses you still have a wicked master)"

Few people would want to be a slave in a true sense: Deprived of their will and utterly subsistant on that person. This is what one would be with God.

"What I am saying is that even a fool could surmise that abortion is increasing in industrial society - "

I am not so sure, when it has been practiced so extensively in the past.

"Obviously you have a lot of faith in science - lol"

Perhaps.

"On the contrary - they don't"

Priests...

"spiritual endeavours - in other words rather than focusing on what "I" want to be happy, one focuses on what god wants, and lo and behold one experiences a more substantial level of happiness"

It is easy to say what God wants when he isn't there to say it. It is also easy to find value in a system that makes one find value in it and, when one attains it, one is pleased just like in anything.

"This is why people are tortured by their desires in material life"

Only weak people are tortured. Most thrive underneath it. Some thrive immensely.

If you are suffering, mayhaps you have to find better pleasures to pursue.

"But this variety is available in a platonic form minus the inherant faults of suffering - how is sweet rice with sand superior to sweet rice without sand?"

I fail to see how it is available when one is subjected to a slavery forever and ever, where one's pleasures are supposed to be found in the love of a God which "lets you serve him as it makes one happy". You've also failed to show how we can have many of our pleasures in this life there. Specifically challenge, conquering, and competition.

"But god didn't demand that one perform sinful activity - we did - for instance is it the manufacturer of a hamer's fault if a person beats themself over he head with it?"

The difference is where the hammer producer cannot stop it, God can.

"And his desire is that we properly utilise our desire, which is what the mateial world is teaching 24 hours a day - if you over eat the wrong food at the wrong time - immediately stomach trouble and you fast for three days - a little this way or that way and we get delivered a harsh result - all in the name of teaching us self control - "

Self control is absurd when there is no reason for it. What reason could we have for self-control if in the "transcendental realm", self control is meaningless? Similarly, that he has chosen to focus on something besides goodness, he is not perfectly good.

"god has an etenity to be successful"

Omnipotence never needs such.

"No - the process that innvolves contolling one's senses from inferior engagements"

Which lets one imagine invisible, intangible, silent men.

"If a person fails at harvard what would you think?"

That they failed the classes and/or annoyed the administration.

"actually the material world is devoid of pleasures - teh only tangible pleasures exist in the spiritual world - all we have in the material world is a feeling of - "Hey I am not sufering at the moment - that must mean I am happy""

You have never experienced a positive pleasure?

"They are contingent on the direct experience of god - unlike material pleasures"

What about this would be unrepugnant? Apparently we found it repugnantly enough to move away from it.

"In other words our stupidity increases on par with our intelligence"

Only in the sense that we create a lot of problems we have to solve. Such is the way of things.

"lol - one day also may never come"

Then oh well. All good things come to an end.

"lol - well first you have to undersatnd what sincerity in relation to aproaching god means - its possible to be so insincere taht one cannot conceive of sincerity"

WHat, pray tell, does it then mean?

"If a person cannot fel happy if their object of love does not exist (inother words they are wling to sacrifice their very life for the sake of the beloved), how is that selfish, since the very concept of self can potentially be extinguished in the process of love?"

Because even if one dies, one has attained the value in that moment of death. In essence: One has placed a value atop of the self's life, in order to attain a value one feels is even greater to the pursuit of happiness. That one might die immediatly after it - or really, in the process - does not matter. It retains a self-based focus, as one is attaining the value.

"And still doing a damn sight worse then a human being, which is what they were before they screwed up whole sale "

Could not they have been born monsters in Hell first?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"- hence less work and more sex - thats the bottom line of it - despite all the hype about noble human values nothing practical eventuates - there is a whole "science" of developing these qualities and requires a lot more than a romantic notion"

They do have a lot of sex (and I do mean -a lot- of sex) but actually, that isn't what they mean. They mean things more "concretely" spiritual, as it were.

You can judge a tee by its fruits - their understanding of spiritual is just a label for the pursuit of temporary delights that don't even grant lasting material happiness, what to speak of spiritual happiness

"I find that hard to believe since there is no clear understanding how even normal mundane consciousness is a materially assessable phenomena, what to speak of transcendental - and further what constitutes an actual transcendental experience (is loosing consciousness in a puddle of vomit transcendental?)"

We actually have much knowledge about how chemicals affect the mind and the "spirit". Or are you claiming we can't induce highs and such?

we may have a few ideas about dopamine and other chemicals that bear an effect on our mood, but there is no material presentation for consciousness itself - in other words why dopamine would affect the brain and not a lump of matter composed of the same material elements as the brain cannot be ultimately explained

"Except when it comes to taking LSD, since there is no scriptural reference to that - in fact there are numerous referenecs prohibiting it, or suggesting it is only valid for those who are addicted to ignorant modes of living"

Such as?

http://nectarofinstruction.com/1/en

"They have no foundation of scriptural knowledge - to understand scripture one must be a brahman (socialised around principles in goodness) - the moment one takes intoxication one is automaically a sudra (ignorance), or less than a sudra"

And if this intoxication doesn't deprive one of one's senses, but enhances them evidently?

Enhances their senses? Would you consent to being a passenger in the car driven by such persons with enhanced senses?

"If love of a mundane person makes being a slave tolerable, what to speak of god? The benefits of being a slave of god is that you are not a slave to wicked persons (Even if you are a slave to your own material senses you still have a wicked master)"

Few people would want to be a slave in a true sense: Deprived of their will and utterly subsistant on that person. This is what one would be with God.

They don't realise they are - or perhaps they do when they have a mid-life crisis

"What I am saying is that even a fool could surmise that abortion is increasing in industrial society - "

I am not so sure, when it has been practiced so extensively in the past.

Lol- but there is no "extensive" evidence for that - in fact if you examine simple cultures (agricultual based societies living outside the main stream of western influence) that are existing at present it seems to suggest the opposite

"spiritual endeavours - in other words rather than focusing on what "I" want to be happy, one focuses on what god wants, and lo and behold one experiences a more substantial level of happiness"

It is easy to say what God wants when he isn't there to say it.

Then that wouldn't be what god wants - the evidence would be that one experiences a type of happiness like that of the material variety

It is also easy to find value in a system that makes one find value in it and, when one attains it, one is pleased just like in anything.

So we are left with a picture where everyone thinks something is great but still the unanswered question is what things are actually greater than others -

"This is why people are tortured by their desires in material life"

Only weak people are tortured. Most thrive underneath it. Some thrive immensely.

Thats the nature of the mode of passion - nectar in the begiining - poison in the end - and to be constantly enthused in such an atmosphere is foolishnes

If you are suffering, mayhaps you have to find better pleasures to pursue.

which brings us to the topic of how spiritual pleasures are superior

"But this variety is available in a platonic form minus the inherant faults of suffering - how is sweet rice with sand superior to sweet rice without sand?"

I fail to see how it is available when one is subjected to a slavery forever and ever,

You fail to see that one is subject to slavery for ever and ever in material life too - like for instance the very moment you accept family life you become a slave of your wife, a slave of your children and most importantly a slave of your boss to keep the whole show on the road

where one's pleasures are supposed to be found in the love of a God which "lets you serve him as it makes one happy". You've also failed to show how we can have many of our pleasures in this life there. Specifically challenge, conquering, and competition.

I've already explained that - its all there minus the tall poppy syndrome of material life

"But god didn't demand that one perform sinful activity - we did - for instance is it the manufacturer of a hamer's fault if a person beats themself over he head with it?"

The difference is where the hammer producer cannot stop it, God can.

Then you would be dead matter and not conscious with free will - its just like undercover agents will wait until a person commits a crime before convicting them - yes they could have stopped them but the point is that the criminal has behavioural tendencies that are driving the problems - and that is what the material world does - it addresses th ebehavioural problems of the living entity by teaching them that their activities are stupid - otherwise god would be spending an eternity wrestling hammers out of our hands

"And his desire is that we properly utilise our desire, which is what the mateial world is teaching 24 hours a day - if you over eat the wrong food at the wrong time - immediately stomach trouble and you fast for three days - a little this way or that way and we get delivered a harsh result - all in the name of teaching us self control - "

Self control is absurd when there is no reason for it.

The reason is to enable one to come to the platform of practicing spiritual life

What reason could we have for self-control if in the "transcendental realm", self control is meaningless?

Its just lke a dseased person cannot eat normal fods while they are sick - therefore they are required to be self controlled - in the same way self control is practiced rigidly for as long as one is aflicted by the sickness of material existence

Similarly, that he has chosen to focus on something besides goodness, he is not perfectly good.

self control is not good? Like there's nothing intrinsically good about the idea of not eating 4kg of deep fried potato?

"god has an etenity to be successful"

Omnipotence never needs such.

thats the point - we ar e not omnipotent - its an eternity for us, not for god

"No - the process that innvolves contolling one's senses from inferior engagements"

Which lets one imagine invisible, intangible, silent men.

No - in enables one to disregard imagined, invisible material desires

"If a person fails at harvard what would you think?"

That they failed the classes and/or annoyed the administration.

Inotherwords it says nothing about the validity of the knowledge being offerred - it just means they didn't pass the grade for whatever reason

"actually the material world is devoid of pleasures - teh only tangible pleasures exist in the spiritual world - all we have in the material world is a feeling of - "Hey I am not sufering at the moment - that must mean I am happy""

You have never experienced a positive pleasure?

Such pleasures only have significance in the presence of looming distress - by your own admission, it is impossible for you to conceive of pleasure without pain - this is the enfeebling result of material consciousness

"They are contingent on the direct experience of god - unlike material pleasures"

What about this would be unrepugnant?

Not necessarily repungent - we just had a better idea - and because we are fallible our "better ideas" can also be fallible

"In other words our stupidity increases on par with our intelligence"

Only in the sense that we create a lot of problems we have to solve. Such is the way of things.

... such is material life .. such is why it is inferior

"lol - one day also may never come"

Then oh well. All good things come to an end.

another doctrine of material consciousness -lol

"lol - well first you have to undersatnd what sincerity in relation to aproaching god means - its possible to be so insincere taht one cannot conceive of sincerity"

WHat, pray tell, does it then mean?

like one may only be sincerely interested in money - but one hears that can make more money in a situation if they are sincere about not being interested inmoney - its just like shoddy hotels that spare no expense to give the impression that they spared no expense on interior decoration

"If a person cannot fel happy if their object of love does not exist (inother words they are wling to sacrifice their very life for the sake of the beloved), how is that selfish, since the very concept of self can potentially be extinguished in the process of love?"

Because even if one dies, one has attained the value in that moment of death. In essence: One has placed a value atop of the self's life, in order to attain a value one feels is even greater to the pursuit of happiness. That one might die immediatly after it - or really, in the process - does not matter. It retains a self-based focus, as one is attaining the value.

exactly - the object of love is greater than the value of the self - hence the love is selfless

"And still doing a damn sight worse then a human being, which is what they were before they screwed up whole sale "

Could not they have been born monsters in Hell first?

still is quite a down grade from existence in the spiritual world

 

[lightgigantic]

Perplexity

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
we may have a few ideas about dopamine and other chemicals that bear an effect on our mood, but there is no material presentation for consciousness itself - in other words why dopamine would affect the brain and not a lump of matter composed of the same material elements as the brain cannot be ultimately explained ”



I am not going to let you get away with that.

How do you know in advance what might be ultimately explained?

Ultimately explained at the moment of course - Sometimes there is type of thinking that it is understood that science can present consciousness in terms of neurons and electrons that gives rise to statements lke

We actually have much knowledge about how chemicals affect the mind and the "spirit".

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Enhances their senses? Would you consent to being a passenger in the car driven by such persons with enhanced senses? ”



I am wondering if that is intended to be a serious question, or meant to infer that the senses are invariably not enhanced.

The LSD experience is akin to an attempt to watch several TV programs at the same time:
While not conducive to the best performance with regard to one particular program, that would not be to say that there is not something else to be learned from the experience.

Then you seem to suggest that the senses are not infact enhanced but muddled

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
They don't realise they are [slaves] or perhaps they do when they have a mid-life crisis ”



There was a time when I would encumber myself with any number of weighty principles to have to haul around as if to hope to prove it all to anybody fool enough to entertain me, and it took me quite some time to get around to questioning to what extent the baggage belonged to me, or was it rather dumped on my back by previous influences.

It was when my mother died that much of it fell away, and when one does then get around to a more genuine attempt to start from scratch, only then does one appreciate the impossibility of the project.

--- Ron.

The worst is not as long as we can say "this is the worst" - King Lear

 

[lightgigantic]

perplexity

Hallucinogens like LSD overload the senses, they open the floodgates, so to speak, or not to speak as the case may be.

The problem is that everything seems to flow in like a sewer

It may be possible to use that constructively to explore the boundaries of human perception, but on a casual basis "muddled" is a fair description.

I guess that depends on the criteria you apply to determine the effective use of the word "constructive"
- or alternatively given how deconstructive contemporary society is, I guess it can make anything appear constructive

It is possible with LSD to hallucinate as an act of will: think something and behold it immediately appears.
That may be profoundly educative with regard to the extent that we do this anyway for the rest of our lives,


but it is also profoundly tricky when it comes to reconstructing a sense of reality to proceed with toward the end of the trip.
Nothing is ever so real again as it was before the trip.

--- Ron

which is why I would argue that such things are only of value to the extent that they enable us to really begin understanding the nature of reality - by and of themselves they are a waste of time

 

[Prince_James]

lightgigantic:

"You can judge a tee by its fruits - their understanding of spiritual is just a label for the pursuit of temporary delights that don't even grant lasting material happiness, what to speak of spiritual happiness"

Actually, I do not believe they pursue any of their sexual activities for spiritual enlightenment. THey are simply married and very much in love and she and him love to screw.

"we may have a few ideas about dopamine and other chemicals that bear an effect on our mood, but there is no material presentation for consciousness itself - in other words why dopamine would affect the brain and not a lump of matter composed of the same material elements as the brain cannot be ultimately explained"

But it does impact the mind, which shows at the very least that we can tamper with consciousness to a certain extent.

"http://nectarofinstruction.com/1/en"

I see nothing here which forbids the taking of LSD, but for maybe one thing in regards to intoxication. But if it is not a means of intoxication, but of spiritual awakening, this would not stand to reason that it is forbidden.

"Enhances their senses? Would you consent to being a passenger in the car driven by such persons with enhanced senses?"

Actually, they routinely drive cars and trucks under the influence of LSD, and never have had an accident.

"They don't realise they are - or perhaps they do when they have a mid-life crisis"

Then they must recitfy that slavery in the here and now, instead of affirming it in the afterlife.

"Lol- but there is no "extensive" evidence for that - in fact if you examine simple cultures (agricultual based societies living outside the main stream of western influence) that are existing at present it seems to suggest the opposite"

According to the article, you are very wrong.

"Then that wouldn't be what god wants - the evidence would be that one experiences a type of happiness like that of the material variety"

One can convince oneself to be happy with anything.

"So we are left with a picture where everyone thinks something is great but still the unanswered question is what things are actually greater than others -"

And what criterion would we use to judge this?

"Thats the nature of the mode of passion - nectar in the begiining - poison in the end - and to be constantly enthused in such an atmosphere is foolishnes"

I would say nectar all the way through.

"which brings us to the topic of how spiritual pleasures are superior"

Anything which makes one a slave is inferior.

"You fail to see that one is subject to slavery for ever and ever in material life too - like for instance the very moment you accept family life you become a slave of your wife, a slave of your children and most importantly a slave of your boss to keep the whole show on the road"

I can leave my wife, abandon my children, and tell my boss to bugger off. I cannot do the same to God if I pursue a spiritual path, and indeed, whereas my wife can die, my children can die, my boss can die, God cannot, so even if I choose to remain loyal until as such time where no loyalty would be lost, I have not that chance with God.

"I've already explained that - its all there minus the tall poppy syndrome of material life"

You did not explain it. You are saying we can have competition, but then without competition. How then is it competition?

"Then you would be dead matter and not conscious with free will - its just like undercover agents will wait until a person commits a crime before convicting them - yes they could have stopped them but the point is that the criminal has behavioural tendencies that are driving the problems - and that is what the material world does - it addresses th ebehavioural problems of the living entity by teaching them that their activities are stupid - otherwise god would be spending an eternity wrestling hammers out of our hands"

God could simply instruct us perfectly in the spiritual world and we'd understand it. Moreover, God is perfectly good, again, and has free will...

"The reason is to enable one to come to the platform of practicing spiritual life"

Which is unnecessary in the spiritual realm if everything is perfect and wonderful.

"Its just lke a dseased person cannot eat normal fods while they are sick - therefore they are required to be self controlled - in the same way self control is practiced rigidly for as long as one is aflicted by the sickness of material existence"

And then afterwards?

"self control is not good? Like there's nothing intrinsically good about the idea of not eating 4kg of deep fried potato?"

When self control is meaningless because God could make things which require no self control? Yes. SElf control is not good.

"thats the point - we ar e not omnipotent - its an eternity for us, not for god"

God is omnipotent and can get the job done for us.

"No - in enables one to disregard imagined, invisible material desires"

To replace them with invisible, intangible men, which remain silent.

"Inotherwords it says nothing about the validity of the knowledge being offerred - it just means they didn't pass the grade for whatever reason"

If Harvard only had failures, I'd blame Harvard. Considering the history of religion...

"Such pleasures only have significance in the presence of looming distress - by your own admission, it is impossible for you to conceive of pleasure without pain - this is the enfeebling result of material consciousness"

Some pleasures depend on pain, others do not. One need not feel pain to laugh at a funny joke, but suffering must exist in a general sense.

"Not necessarily repungent - we just had a better idea - and because we are fallible our "better ideas" can also be fallible"

No. I meant what would make "spiritual pleasures" unrepugnant for us over an eternal timescale?

"... such is material life .. such is why it is inferior"

The mistakes let us grow and overcome them.

"like one may only be sincerely interested in money - but one hears that can make more money in a situation if they are sincere about not being interested inmoney - its just like shoddy hotels that spare no expense to give the impression that they spared no expense on interior decoration"

So you have to be utterly passionate regardless of time and effort to be "sincere about God"?

"exactly - the object of love is greater than the value of the self - hence the love is selfless"

Not at all. The self is ultimately valued more than the other, because it is not in the pursuit of other that the action is done, but the attainment of value which can -only- be appreciated by teh self. In essence, one is attempting to fullfill an ecstasy so profound as to make life meaningless, to put it otherwise.

"still is quite a down grade from existence in the spiritual world "

If the spirit world is supposed to be the top, yes.

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"You can judge a tee by its fruits - their understanding of spiritual is just a label for the pursuit of temporary delights that don't even grant lasting material happiness, what to speak of spiritual happiness"

Actually, I do not believe they pursue any of their sexual activities for spiritual enlightenment. THey are simply married and very much in love and she and him love to screw.

Certainly a unique and original premise for a relationship

I see nothing here which forbids the taking of LSD, but for maybe one thing in regards to intoxication. But if it is not a means of intoxication, but of spiritual awakening, this would not stand to reason that it is forbidden.

When you use words like spiritual awakening it menas that you are aware of the phenomena to qualify a "spiritual thing" from a non spiritual thing -

"Enhances their senses? Would you consent to being a passenger in the car driven by such persons with enhanced senses?"

Actually, they routinely drive cars and trucks under the influence of LSD, and never have had an accident.

Then they are foolish

"They don't realise they are - or perhaps they do when they have a mid-life crisis"

Then they must recitfy that slavery in the here and now, instead of affirming it in the afterlife.

Thats the point - they don't - hence the mid life crisis

"Then that wouldn't be what god wants - the evidence would be that one experiences a type of happiness like that of the material variety"

One can convince oneself to be happy with anything.

Which brings us to the q of what things are a superior cause for happiness

"So we are left with a picture where everyone thinks something is great but still the unanswered question is what things are actually greater than others -"

And what criterion would we use to judge this?

which innolves more contingent factors of suffering is inferior

"which brings us to the topic of how spiritual pleasures are superior"

Anything which makes one a slave is inferior.

Then you haven't established how material pleasure frees one from slavery when it quite obviously leads to many masters who are far from merciful

"You fail to see that one is subject to slavery for ever and ever in material life too - like for instance the very moment you accept family life you become a slave of your wife, a slave of your children and most importantly a slave of your boss to keep the whole show on the road"

I can leave my wife, abandon my children, and tell my boss to bugger off. I cannot do the same to God if I pursue a spiritual path, and indeed, whereas my wife can die, my children can die, my boss can die, God cannot, so even if I choose to remain loyal until as such time where no loyalty would be lost, I have not that chance with God.

So if you tell your wife to bugger off you wouldn't find another wife - and if you had to tell them to bugger off in the first place it would indicate an inferior happiness - no accounts of saints telling god to bugger off - on the contrary they seem quite happy

"Then you would be dead matter and not conscious with free will - its just like undercover agents will wait until a person commits a crime before convicting them - yes they could have stopped them but the point is that the criminal has behavioural tendencies that are driving the problems - and that is what the material world does - it addresses th ebehavioural problems of the living entity by teaching them that their activities are stupid - otherwise god would be spending an eternity wrestling hammers out of our hands"

God could simply instruct us perfectly in the spiritual world and we'd understand it. Moreover, God is perfectly good, again, and has free will...

instruction requires free will - what do you require to understand? Scriptural quotes in neon lights?

"The reason is to enable one to come to the platform of practicing spiritual life"

Which is unnecessary in the spiritual realm if everything is perfect and wonderful.

which is why we operate a little differently in the material world - inother words its not like living entities in the spiritual world spend all their time pouring over scripture - they already socialised around the principles of eternal life and have only one business - enjoyment (whichis not subject to the inebritities of the material variety)

"Its just lke a dseased person cannot eat normal fods while they are sick - therefore they are required to be self controlled - in the same way self control is practiced rigidly for as long as one is aflicted by the sickness of material existence"

And then afterwards?

No more sickness - perfect health in this case means being compleetly socialised around the principles of hot pizza

"self control is not good? Like there's nothing intrinsically good about the idea of not eating 4kg of deep fried potato?"

When self control is meaningless because God could make things which require no self control? Yes. SElf control is not good.

If our self is not the same as god's self then to a greater or lesser extent we require self control - at least if we are concerned about the environment that our actions will force us to reside in

"thats the point - we ar e not omnipotent - its an eternity for us, not for god"

God is omnipotent and can get the job done for us.

Then we would be dull matter - certain responsibilities come with free will that are just simply unavoidable

"No - in enables one to disregard imagined, invisible material desires"

To replace them with invisible, intangible men, which remain silent.

if they appear imagined and silent it is probably because you have never seriously applied any spiritual principles to begin with -

"Inotherwords it says nothing about the validity of the knowledge being offerred - it just means they didn't pass the grade for whatever reason"

If Harvard only had failures, I'd blame Harvard. Considering the history of religion...

Then your history of religion is slighted - in fact I doubt you even no how to determine a spiritual success from a failure - but on the whole you are right - gross materialism takes the forefront of life in kali yuga - even in the name of religion

"Such pleasures only have significance in the presence of looming distress - by your own admission, it is impossible for you to conceive of pleasure without pain - this is the enfeebling result of material consciousness"

Some pleasures depend on pain, others do not. One need not feel pain to laugh at a funny joke, but suffering must exist in a general sense.

then that is your foolishness - if you are suffering in the material world it indicates that you don't know how to enjoy properly - just like you require salt but if you bring the entire ocean it is not beneficial

"Not necessarily repungent - we just had a better idea - and because we are fallible our "better ideas" can also be fallible"

No. I meant what would make "spiritual pleasures" unrepugnant for us over an eternal timescale?

well first you have to understand the difference between a material pleasure and a spiritual one - at teh moment you are just imagning that because you like to drink coke that the view of eternally drinking coke does not sound good

"... such is material life .. such is why it is inferior"

The mistakes let us grow and overcome them.

so weher does that growing lead to - if its just more suffering how is it growth?

"like one may only be sincerely interested in money - but one hears that can make more money in a situation if they are sincere about not being interested inmoney - its just like shoddy hotels that spare no expense to give the impression that they spared no expense on interior decoration"

So you have to be utterly passionate regardless of time and effort to be "sincere about God"?

what else would you consider sincere to mean?

 

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

"Certainly a unique and original premise for a relationship"

Sex is only one aspect of their relationship. But you know, they enjoy it.

"When you use words like spiritual awakening it menas that you are aware of the phenomena to qualify a "spiritual thing" from a non spiritual thing -"

Apparently they are. They were both religious prior to it. And the man, at the very least, has adopted a very Bhagavad Gita notion of apathy to concerns which do not interact with the soul.

"Then they are foolish "

He claims it makes him drive -better-. Of course, I have never been in a car with them. But I'd consider going for at least a mile under safe conditions and in a position where I might wrest control from him, in order to satisfy to myself that he is capable of such driving.

"Thats the point - they don't - hence the mid life crisis'

Indeed. But seeking a slavery in the afterlife won't make things better.

"Which brings us to the q of what things are a superior cause for happiness"

"which innolves more contingent factors of suffering is inferior"

What about contingent factors of pleasure?

As I would argue that the thing most suffered for is the sweetest, so long as the suffering is not eternal, and the reward can be gained. Consider, that when building one's muscles, usage of a heavier weight, though it hurts more to use, makes bigger, better muscles.

"Then you haven't established how material pleasure frees one from slavery when it quite obviously leads to many masters who are far from merciful"

Material pleasures retain a control found in the self. Spiritual pleasures demand mastery of the self by God.

"So if you tell your wife to bugger off you wouldn't find another wife - and if you had to tell them to bugger off in the first place it would indicate an inferior happiness - no accounts of saints telling god to bugger off - on the contrary they seem quite happy"

Many religionists have left their religion. INdeed, even priests have. However, I do agree that if you had a wife which you could leave, your wife was, at least at that time, not something which was proper to invest happiness in having.

"instruction requires free will - what do you require to understand? Scriptural quotes in neon lights?"

I instruct the keyboard to do my bidding and it does so without a will. Indeed, it works perfectly.

"which is why we operate a little differently in the material world - inother words its not like living entities in the spiritual world spend all their time pouring over scripture - they already socialised around the principles of eternal life and have only one business - enjoyment (whichis not subject to the inebritities of the material variety)"

What I was refering to is that, no one could "mess up the spiritual world" or "not enjoy it" were it perfect. One would need no instruction in any material world.

"No more sickness - perfect health in this case means being compleetly socialised around the principles of hot pizza"

Yet we abandoned that hot pizza once before. Why won't we again?

"If our self is not the same as god's self then to a greater or lesser extent we require self control - at least if we are concerned about the environment that our actions will force us to reside in"

It is within God's power to make our self as capable as he desires.

"Then we would be dull matter - certain responsibilities come with free will that are just simply unavoidable"

Then God is not wholly good, as he places our "free will" above his duty to goodness.

"if they appear imagined and silent it is probably because you have never seriously applied any spiritual principles to begin with -"

Or that the epistemology violates the ontology.

"Then your history of religion is slighted - in fact I doubt you even no how to determine a spiritual success from a failure - but on the whole you are right - gross materialism takes the forefront of life in kali yuga - even in the name of religion"

What would you define as spiritual success?

"then that is your foolishness - if you are suffering in the material world it indicates that you don't know how to enjoy properly - just like you require salt but if you bring the entire ocean it is not beneficial"

Yet the suffering can often lead to greater enjoyment, therefore fullfilling a good role.

"well first you have to understand the difference between a material pleasure and a spiritual one - at teh moment you are just imagning that because you like to drink coke that the view of eternally drinking coke does not sound good"

What is the difference?

"so weher does that growing lead to - if its just more suffering how is it growth?"

No, it is greater joy. The attainment of power, of strength, of wisdom...

"what else would you consider sincere to mean?"

So therefore the system is rigged to disallow your "five minutes of sincerity".

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"Certainly a unique and original premise for a relationship"

Sex is only one aspect of their relationship. But you know, they enjoy it.

funny that

"When you use words like spiritual awakening it menas that you are aware of the phenomena to qualify a "spiritual thing" from a non spiritual thing -"

Apparently they are. They were both religious prior to it. And the man, at the very least, has adopted a very Bhagavad Gita notion of apathy to concerns which do not interact with the soul.

so I guess when krishna says that the soul accepts many different bodies and a sober person should not be bewildered by the change he thinks that spiritual discipline innvolves developing tolerance to the disturbances caused by changing one's sexual partners?

"Then they are foolish "

He claims it makes him drive -better-. Of course, I have never been in a car with them.

I was almost going to add that if you drive as a passenger with him you are more foolish
.....

But I'd consider going for at least a mile under safe conditions and in a position where I might wrest control from him, in order to satisfy to myself that he is capable of such driving.

...... but I guess I can add that here

"Thats the point - they don't - hence the mid life crisis'

Indeed. But seeking a slavery in the afterlife won't make things better.

well considering that the notion of being a master is the exact dynamic that the material world operates on to make us a slave the future doesn't look to promising either ....
BG 7.5
Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.

Besides - at no point do we have the option of not being a slave
BG 4.31
O best of the Kuru dynasty, without sacrifice one can never live happily on this planet or in this life: what then of the next?

Its just a question who you want to sacrifice for - your material body, which ultimately is maggot food, or transcendence/god??

"Which brings us to the q of what things are a superior cause for happiness"

"which innolves more contingent factors of suffering is inferior"

What about contingent factors of pleasure?

well if you are talking about pleasures that pertain to the material body you have a few contingencies builtin there that are far from pleasurable

As I would argue that the thing most suffered for is the sweetest, so long as the suffering is not eternal, and the reward can be gained. Consider, that when building one's muscles, usage of a heavier weight, though it hurts more to use, makes bigger, better muscles.

But then also consider how that yourmuscles, no matter how big you build them, will transform into flab with the appearance of old age - in other words its not clear what reward you have actually gained

"Then you haven't established how material pleasure frees one from slavery when it quite obviously leads to many masters who are far from merciful"

Material pleasures retain a control found in the self. Spiritual pleasures demand mastery of the self by God.

Actually the converse is true
SB 11.13.32: While awake the living entity enjoys with all of his senses the fleeting characteristics of the material body and mind; while dreaming he enjoys similar experiences within the mind; and in deep dreamless sleep all such experiences merge into ignorance. By remembering and contemplating the succession of wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep, the living entity can understand that he is one throughout the three stages of consciousness and is transcendental. Thus, he becomes the lord of the senses.

"So if you tell your wife to bugger off you wouldn't find another wife - and if you had to tell them to bugger off in the first place it would indicate an inferior happiness - no accounts of saints telling god to bugger off - on the contrary they seem quite happy"

Many religionists have left their religion. INdeed, even priests have. However, I do agree that if you had a wife which you could leave, your wife was, at least at that time, not something which was proper to invest happiness in having.

There is a distinction between a priest and a saintly person - and the problem about finding happinessin things that you can escape and avoid by telling them to bugger off is that they also have the sameoption too (IOW they can tell you to bugger off)

"instruction requires free will - what do you require to understand? Scriptural quotes in neon lights?"

I instruct the keyboard to do my bidding and it does so without a will. Indeed, it works perfectly.

How about when you are instructing conscious living entities?

Even God gives you the choice to do whatever you want after receiving instructions

Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.
BG 18.63

"which is why we operate a little differently in the material world - inother words its not like living entities in the spiritual world spend all their time pouring over scripture - they already socialised around the principles of eternal life and have only one business - enjoyment (whichis not subject to the inebritities of the material variety)"

What I was refering to is that, no one could "mess up the spiritual world" or "not enjoy it" were it perfect. One would need no instruction in any material world

Really? Just try and drive your car on the wrong side of the street to get first hand experience of the degree of instruction required for this world.

"No more sickness - perfect health in this case means being compleetly socialised around the principles of hot pizza"

Yet we abandoned that hot pizza once before. Why won't we again?

Depends on your level of determination

BG 8.15: After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

BG 4.9: One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

"If our self is not the same as god's self then to a greater or lesser extent we require self control - at least if we are concerned about the environment that our actions will force us to reside in"

It is within God's power to make our self as capable as he desires.

Just goes to show how much stubborn we are to remain incapable

"Then we would be dull matter - certain responsibilities come with free will that are just simply unavoidable"

Then God is not wholly good, as he places our "free will" above his duty to goodness.

On the contrary - we place our free will above the constitutional position of god as superior

If you cannot even accept god's instructions how to be happy in the material world howon earth do you expect to qualify for the spiritual one??

BG 3.10: In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Viṣṇu, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajña [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily and achieving liberation."

"if they appear imagined and silent it is probably because you have never seriously applied any spiritual principles to begin with -"

Or that the epistemology violates the ontology.

so you admit that you applied the incorrect epistemology - maybe you could start by revealing something of it and we can seeif it is the correct one

"Then your history of religion is slighted - in fact I doubt you even know how to determine a spiritual success from a failure - but on the whole you are right - gross materialism takes the forefront of life in kali yuga - even in the name of religion"

What would you define as spiritual success?

BG 18.55: One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

"then that is your foolishness - if you are suffering in the material world it indicates that you don't know how to enjoy properly - just like you require salt but if you bring the entire ocean it is not beneficial"

Yet the suffering can often lead to greater enjoyment, therefore fullfilling a good role.

Suffering indicates ignorance

BG 18.36: O best of the Bhāratas, now please hear from Me about the three kinds of happiness by which the conditioned soul enjoys, and by which he sometimes comes to the end of all distress.

BG 18.37: That which in the beginning may be just like poison but at the end is just like nectar and which awakens one to self-realization is said to be happiness in the mode of goodness.

BG 18.38: That happiness which is derived from contact of the senses with their objects and which appears like nectar at first but poison at the end is said to be of the nature of passion.

BG 18.39: And that happiness which is blind to self-realization, which is delusion from beginning to end and which arises from sleep, laziness and illusion is said to be of the nature of ignorance.

BG 18.40: There is no being existing, either here or among the demigods in the higher planetary systems, which is freed from these three modes born of material nature.

"well first you have to understand the difference between a material pleasure and a spiritual one - at teh moment you are just imagning that because you like to drink coke that the view of eternally drinking coke does not sound good"

What is the difference?

One innvolves seasonal visits of happiness and distress that can only be overcome by tolerance

BG 2.14 O son of Kuntī, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed.

and the other innvolves complete detachment from such bodily things due to the clear perception of transcendence

BG 5.21: Such a liberated person is not attracted to material sense pleasure but is always in trance, enjoying the pleasure within. In this way the self-realized person enjoys unlimited happiness, for he concentrates on the Supreme.

This is more than mere renunciation of material pleasures

BG 5.6: Merely renouncing all activities yet not engaging in the devotional service of the Lord cannot make one happy. But a thoughtful person engaged in devotional service can achieve the Supreme without delay.

They operate out of two different paradigms - one is suffering and the other is happiness

SB 10.14.58: For those who have accepted the boat of the lotus feet of the Lord, who is the shelter of the cosmic manifestation and is famous as Murāri, the enemy of the Mura demon, the ocean of the material world is like the water contained in a calf's hoof-print. Their goal is paraḿ padam, Vaikuṇṭha, the place where there are no material miseries, not the place where there is danger at every step.

"so weher does that growing lead to - if its just more suffering how is it growth?"

No, it is greater joy. The attainment of power, of strength, of wisdom...

power strength and wisdomin the medium of birth and death? ....Intriguing

BG 8.16: From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.

"what else would you consider sincere to mean?"

So therefore the system is rigged to disallow your "five minutes of sincerity".

not if you areactually sincere for 5minutes - but thats the point - if attempt to rustle up whatever sincerity you can for 5minutes worth itindicates you don't have any sincerity to muster up in the first place

 

[Prince_James]

lightgigantic:

"so I guess when krishna says that the soul accepts many different bodies and a sober person should not be bewildered by the change he thinks that spiritual discipline innvolves developing tolerance to the disturbances caused by changing one's sexual partners?"

Actually, no. As far as I know, he and she have only had sex with one other person besides eachother. And no, it was not me, so I cannot vouch for that.

"...... but I guess I can add that here"

I like experiments.

"well considering that the notion of being a master is the exact dynamic that the material world operates on to make us a slave the future doesn't look to promising either ...."

A slave only to those who can't control themselves.

"Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature."

So wait - Krishna is us now?

"Its just a question who you want to sacrifice for - your material body, which ultimately is maggot food, or transcendence/god??"

I'd prefer the material world where at least I have myself.

"well if you are talking about pleasures that pertain to the material body you have a few contingencies builtin there that are far from pleasurable"

Such as?

"But then also consider how that yourmuscles, no matter how big you build them, will transform into flab with the appearance of old age - in other words its not clear what reward you have actually gained"

Temporary rewards are rewards nonetheless.

"SB 11.13.32: While awake the living entity enjoys with all of his senses the fleeting characteristics of the material body and mind; while dreaming he enjoys similar experiences within the mind; and in deep dreamless sleep all such experiences merge into ignorance. By remembering and contemplating the succession of wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep, the living entity can understand that he is one throughout the three stages of consciousness and is transcendental. Thus, he becomes the lord of the senses."

So by realizing that one doesn't diminish in either state, one is "transcendental"? Then it stands to reason that even a child is transcendental.

"There is a distinction between a priest and a saintly person - and the problem about finding happinessin things that you can escape and avoid by telling them to bugger off is that they also have the sameoption too (IOW they can tell you to bugger off)"

Indeed. There is risk, but the risk can make it sweeter, also. A gamble is fun precisely because one stands to reason that one can lose.

"How about when you are instructing conscious living entities?

Even God gives you the choice to do whatever you want after receiving instructions"

Then his focus isn't on perfect goodness and thus he has a flaw. Or, he is not God.

"Really? Just try and drive your car on the wrong side of the street to get first hand experience of the degree of instruction required for this world."

And needing to know how to not drive on the wrong side of the road is needed in the spirit realm?

"BG 8.15: After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

Yet we left him before, so clearly God is lying.

"Just goes to show how much stubborn we are to remain incapable "

Our stubborness ought to be as as an ant's to one's boot.

"On the contrary - we place our free will above the constitutional position of god as superior

If you cannot even accept god's instructions how to be happy in the material world howon earth do you expect to qualify for the spiritual one??"

Not a problem for an omnipotent God.

"so you admit that you applied the incorrect epistemology - maybe you could start by revealing something of it and we can seeif it is the correct one"

No, I was actually admitting that the system itself does not work. THat is to say, that it is not truthful. That it was not I, but the system itself, which isn't working.

"BG 18.55: One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God. "

So basically, you define spiritual success as "working within the system until one believes in it"?

"Suffering indicates ignorance"

Or perhaps just deprivation of what one wants?

"One innvolves seasonal visits of happiness and distress that can only be overcome by tolerance

and the other innvolves complete detachment from such bodily things due to the clear perception of transcendence"

These spiritual pleasures seem rather poor, then.

"power strength and wisdomin the medium of birth and death? ....Intriguing"

In so much as it is a game where one can win, lose, and win and lose again, most definitely.

"not if you areactually sincere for 5minutes - but thats the point - if attempt to rustle up whatever sincerity you can for 5minutes worth itindicates you don't have any sincerity to muster up in the first place"

Meaning what you purpose is simply arduous and continuous service until you get "something".

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince james

"well considering that the notion of being a master is the exact dynamic that the material world operates on to make us a slave the future doesn't look to promising either ...."

A slave only to those who can't control themselves.

Which is exactly what we are in the material world

BG 15.7
The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

"Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature."

So wait - Krishna is us now?

no - he is the source - he is talking about his seperated energies

"Its just a question who you want to sacrifice for - your material body, which ultimately is maggot food, or transcendence/god??"

I'd prefer the material world where at least I have myself.

But thats the point - you don't
All you have is a temporary body which will inevitably and anytime before then get diminished by the time factor -

When you compare that to the eternal identity offered in spiritual life it certainly appears to be quite literally the booby prize

"well if you are talking about pleasures that pertain to the material body you have a few contingencies builtin there that are far from pleasurable"

Such as?

Death old age disease, - the very objects of attachment being transformed into aversion - sufferings caused by other living entities, sufferings caused by natural pphenomena and even if you somehow manage to avoid all this sufferings caused by one's own body and mind - in short there is danger at every step - spiritual life on the other hand .....

SB 10.14.58
For those who have accepted the boat of the lotus feet of the Lord, who is the shelter of the cosmic manifestation and is famous as Murāri, the ocean of the material world is like the water contained in a calf's hoof-print. Their goal is paraḿ padam, Vaikuṇṭha, the place where there are no material miseries, not the place where there is danger at every step.

"But then also consider how that yourmuscles, no matter how big you build them, will transform into flab with the appearance of old age - in other words its not clear what reward you have actually gained"

Temporary rewards are rewards nonetheless.

Yes - the rewards of the less intelligent

"SB 11.13.32: While awake the living entity enjoys with all of his senses the fleeting characteristics of the material body and mind; while dreaming he enjoys similar experiences within the mind; and in deep dreamless sleep all such experiences merge into ignorance. By remembering and contemplating the succession of wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep, the living entity can understand that he is one throughout the three stages of consciousness and is transcendental. Thus, he becomes the lord of the senses."

So by realizing that one doesn't diminish in either state, one is "transcendental"? Then it stands to reason that even a child is transcendental.

The very nature of consciousness is transcendental- whether one is aware of that transcendental quality or not is what determines whether one is in ignorance or not - but I can see that you don't actually understand what the text is saying - The point I was mostly focusing on here is that for a person to be their own master they must actually be able to control their senses - otherwise they are the servant of their senses - which is the epitamy of animal life

"There is a distinction between a priest and a saintly person - and the problem about finding happinessin things that you can escape and avoid by telling them to bugger off is that they also have the sameoption too (IOW they can tell you to bugger off)"

Indeed. There is risk, but the risk can make it sweeter, also. A gamble is fun precisely because one stands to reason that one can lose.

Well given that eventually you will be told to bugger off, either by a disgruntled lover or in the form of death itself as either you or they are kicked out of their body, it seems that the risks are decked against you - since time immemorial people have been losing at the rate of 100% - what is amazing about the whole deal is how people foolishly think they are on the brink of immanent success

"How about when you are instructing conscious living entities?

Even God gives you the choice to do whatever you want after receiving instructions"

Then his focus isn't on perfect goodness and thus he has a flaw. Or, he is not God.

You have establish how us being stabilised on a platform of ignorance and god coming on the scene to rectify the effects of our ignorance but not the cause of our ignorance makes him more good - on the contrary it seems to make him less good - and it also makes us seem like imbeciles that are not toilet trained too

"Really? Just try and drive your car on the wrong side of the street to get first hand experience of the degree of instruction required for this world."

And needing to know how to not drive on the wrong side of the road is needed in the spirit realm?

Ignorance is not present in the spiritual world because perfect living entities are not socialised around ignorance

CC Madhya 24.40: "When one is attracted to Kṛṣṇa on the transcendental platform, there is no longer any logical argument on the basis of revealed scripture, nor are there considerations of such conclusions. This is His transcendental quality that is the essence of all transcendental sweetness.

SB 11.20.9
As long as one is not satiated by fruitive activity and has not awakened his taste for devotional service by śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23] one has to act according to the regulative principles of the Vedic injunctions.

"BG 8.15: After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

Yet we left him before, so clearly God is lying.

Once again - how many times did you have to touch a hot iron before you decided not to do it again?

"On the contrary - we place our free will above the constitutional position of god as superior

If you cannot even accept god's instructions how to be happy in the material world howon earth do you expect to qualify for the spiritual one??"

Not a problem for an omnipotent God.

Its not god's problem - it is ours - its not like he is diminished by living entities temporarily enagged in activities of nescience

"so you admit that you applied the incorrect epistemology - maybe you could start by revealing something of it and we can seeif it is the correct one"

No, I was actually admitting that the system itself does not work. THat is to say, that it is not truthful. That it was not I, but the system itself, which isn't working.

and what system is that exactly?

"Suffering indicates ignorance"

Or perhaps just deprivation of what one wants?

So if you are suffering it is probably because you are wanting the wrong things - which is ignorance

"One innvolves seasonal visits of happiness and distress that can only be overcome by tolerance

and the other innvolves complete detachment from such bodily things due to the clear perception of transcendence"

These spiritual pleasures seem rather poor, then.

Probably because you have a poor fund of knowledge - once again - cold pizza is certainly delightful to a person who knows nothing but cold pizza

CC Madhya 19.165: "'As long as there is not the slightest fragrance of pure love of Kṛṣṇa, which is the perfect medicinal herb for controlling Lord Kṛṣṇa within the heart, the opulences of the material perfections known as the siddhis, the brahminical perfections [satya, śama, titikṣā and so on], the trance of the yogīs and the monistic bliss of Brahman all seem wonderful for men.

"power strength and wisdomin the medium of birth and death? ....Intriguing"

In so much as it is a game where one can win, lose, and win and lose again, most definitely.

I thought death was always quite absolute in its dealings - seems like the only option material offers is short time loser or long term loser - either way - loser

"not if you areactually sincere for 5minutes - but thats the point - if attempt to rustle up whatever sincerity you can for 5minutes worth itindicates you don't have any sincerity to muster up in the first place"

Meaning what you purpose is simply arduous and continuous service until you get "something".

arduous no doubt for one who insists on maintaining themselves on the platform of nescience

When an inquisitive person comes to understand this knowledge, he has nothing further to know. After all, one who has drunk the most palatable nectar cannot remain thirsty.

SB 11.29.33: Through analytic knowledge, ritualistic work, mystic yoga, mundane business and political rule, people seek to advance in religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and liberation. But because you are My devotee, whatever men can accomplish in these multifarious ways you will very easily find within Me.

SB 11.29.34: A person who gives up all fruitive activities and offers himself entirely unto Me, eagerly desiring to render service unto Me, achieves liberation from birth and death and is promoted to the status of sharing My own opulences.

 

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

"Which is exactly what we are in the material world"

I can control myself. Any reasonable person can. In fact, we conquer it.

"no - he is the source - he is talking about his seperated energies"

So wait. He calls us "another one of his superior energies", and then you imply this means we're distinct from him?

"But thats the point - you don't
All you have is a temporary body which will inevitably and anytime before then get diminished by the time factor -

When you compare that to the eternal identity offered in spiritual life it certainly appears to be quite literally the booby prize"

A variable identity that is still "me" in the material life and which never entails even a moment of slavery that is not outside of my control of bucking against, is better than an eternity as as a supplicant of a cosmic despot.

"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

Let time strip my body. Let karma make me an animal. So be it. I will strive and thrive and do as I will.

"Death old age disease, - the very objects of attachment being transformed into aversion - sufferings caused by other living entities, sufferings caused by natural pphenomena and even if you somehow manage to avoid all this sufferings caused by one's own body and mind - in short there is danger at every step - spiritual life on the other hand ....."

All can be overcome, sidestepped, and conquered.

"Yes - the rewards of the less intelligent"

When there are no other rewards worth pursuing, who is the fool?

"The very nature of consciousness is transcendental- whether one is aware of that transcendental quality or not is what determines whether one is in ignorance or not - but I can see that you don't actually understand what the text is saying - The point I was mostly focusing on here is that for a person to be their own master they must actually be able to control their senses - otherwise they are the servant of their senses - which is the epitamy of animal life"

How are we not in control of our senses? We use them for information, not the other way around.

"Well given that eventually you will be told to bugger off, either by a disgruntled lover or in the form of death itself as either you or they are kicked out of their body, it seems that the risks are decked against you - since time immemorial people have been losing at the rate of 100% - what is amazing about the whole deal is how people foolishly think they are on the brink of immanent success"

Yet they win inside it, and according to you, we get to play the game eternally. If we never truly die...

"You have establish how us being stabilised on a platform of ignorance and god coming on the scene to rectify the effects of our ignorance but not the cause of our ignorance makes him more good - on the contrary it seems to make him less good - and it also makes us seem like imbeciles that are not toilet trained too"

God can erase the cause of our ignorance.

"Ignorance is not present in the spiritual world because perfect living entities are not socialised around ignorance"

Which could have just been made by God to be so in everything.

"Once again - how many times did you have to touch a hot iron before you decided not to do it again?"

Once, but presumably, I would never have had to touch it if God was so great.

"Its not god's problem - it is ours - its not like he is diminished by living entities temporarily enagged in activities of nescience"

He most certainly is. His goodness is diminished. He is shown not to be perfectly good.

"and what system is that exactly?"

The system of the spirit.

"So if you are suffering it is probably because you are wanting the wrong things - which is ignorance"

All value seeks out goodness. How then can we search for the wrong thing?

"Probably because you have a poor fund of knowledge - once again - cold pizza is certainly delightful to a person who knows nothing but cold pizza"

No, only because one would be deprived all of value.

"I thought death was always quite absolute in its dealings - seems like the only option material offers is short time loser or long term loser - either way - loser"

We die, but according to you, we are reborn. Is one a "loser" for drinking water, because one's cup runs dry eventually?

"SB 11.29.34: A person who gives up all fruitive activities and offers himself entirely unto Me, eagerly desiring to render service unto Me, achieves liberation from birth and death and is promoted to the status of sharing My own opulences. "

So wait, wait, wait. Now we get to have all power and such?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"Which is exactly what we are in the material world"

I can control myself. Any reasonable person can. In fact, we conquer it.

On the contrary it is highly doubtful that you cancontrol yourself - like forinstance if your mind is angry I bet you would be angry in action - the same with lust, envy, greed etc etc

As for conquering nature that is a joke - Death still doesn't seem to budge from the 100% level

"no - he is the source - he is talking about his seperated energies"

So wait. He calls us "another one of his superior energies", and then you imply this means we're distinct from him?

SEPERATED energy - just like if you have your voice recorded it is seperate from you even though you are the source of it

"But thats the point - you don't
All you have is a temporary body which will inevitably and anytime before then get diminished by the time factor -

When you compare that to the eternal identity offered in spiritual life it certainly appears to be quite literally the booby prize"

A variable identity that is still "me" in the material life and which never entails even a moment of slavery that is not outside of my control of bucking against, is better than an eternity as as a supplicant of a cosmic despot.

On the contrary you are controlled every minute of the day by the needs and requirements of your body, real or imagined, what to speak about the real and imagined requirements of every other living entity you encounter - the prison bars are invisible so you don't even realize you are a slave and have been a slave since day one.

"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

lol - you are not even reigning though - there are practically millions of universes and each of these millions of universes there are millions of planets and on one planet of one particular universe there are millionsof living entities and of them there are humans that also number in the millions and in one country there are millions of cities and in one such house of one such street in one such cities in one such countries on one such planet in one such universe there is one such human being who thinks they are reigning .....

Let time strip my body. Let karma make me an animal. So be it. I will strive and thrive and do as I will.

yep - carry that chain and ball like a man - at least for as long as old age doesn't make its appearance and you still have the human form of life ....

"Death old age disease, - the very objects of attachment being transformed into aversion - sufferings caused by other living entities, sufferings caused by natural pphenomena and even if you somehow manage to avoid all this sufferings caused by one's own body and mind - in short there is danger at every step - spiritual life on the other hand ....."

All can be overcome, sidestepped, and conquered.

I haven't checked the WHO statistics recently but I think the success rate of side stepping old age disease and death still stands at 0%

"Yes - the rewards of the less intelligent"

When there are no other rewards worth pursuing, who is the fool?

Well if all you have is cold pizza to munch on I guess you just have to keep chewing

"The very nature of consciousness is transcendental- whether one is aware of that transcendental quality or not is what determines whether one is in ignorance or not - but I can see that you don't actually understand what the text is saying - The point I was mostly focusing on here is that for a person to be their own master they must actually be able to control their senses - otherwise they are the servant of their senses - which is the epitamy of animal life"

How are we not in control of our senses? We use them for information, not the other way around.

On the contrary we see a beautiful woman and think "I wish I could have her" or a powerful position and think "I wish I could occupy it" - its what we do with the information that causes all the problems, thus it often works out in over 99% of cases that a person is actually a slave of their tongue, and a slave of all their other senses

"Well given that eventually you will be told to bugger off, either by a disgruntled lover or in the form of death itself as either you or they are kicked out of their body, it seems that the risks are decked against you - since time immemorial people have been losing at the rate of 100% - what is amazing about the whole deal is how people foolishly think they are on the brink of immanent success"

Yet they win inside it, and according to you, we get to play the game eternally. If we never truly die...

Win on the inside? What do you mean - if your prize gets taken away from you you are the loser

"You have establish how us being stabilised on a platform of ignorance and god coming on the scene to rectify the effects of our ignorance but not the cause of our ignorance makes him more good - on the contrary it seems to make him less good - and it also makes us seem like imbeciles that are not toilet trained too"

God can erase the cause of our ignorance.

And he does that

"Ignorance is not present in the spiritual world because perfect living entities are not socialised around ignorance"

Which could have just been made by God to be so in everything.

except that we require another "option" in order for free will to be dynamic

"Once again - how many times did you have to touch a hot iron before you decided not to do it again?"

Once, but presumably, I would never have had to touch it if God was so great.

just goes to show how greatly stupid we are -its not like he advised us - in fact he openly declares coming to the material world isnot in our best interests

"Its not god's problem - it is ours - its not like he is diminished by living entities temporarily enagged in activities of nescience"

He most certainly is. His goodness is diminished. He is shown not to be perfectly good.

His goodness is his ability to wean us off bad habits - just likeif a prisioner goes tojail for a serious crime like rape its not merely a question of "Oh sorry your honour I wasn't aware it was against the law" - its a case of a serious infringement of the status quo and the change of heart has to come from the person not the legislation - although one may be "legislated" to reside in the prison of material existence until such a change of heart manifests

"and what system is that exactly?"

The system of the spirit.

and what is the system of the spirit?

"So if you are suffering it is probably because you are wanting the wrong things - which is ignorance"

All value seeks out goodness. How then can we search for the wrong thing?

Because you can look the the right thing in the wrong place

"Probably because you have a poor fund of knowledge - once again - cold pizza is certainly delightful to a person who knows nothing but cold pizza"

No, only because one would be deprived all of value.

Since by your own admission you have no entrance to the pleasures of spirituallife I think you will have to entertain it merely as a mental idea - just because the only value you know is cold pizza doesn't mean that the values of hot pizza doesn't exist - on the contrary if you had tasted hot pizza we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place since it would be self evident that spiritual pleasures are superior to material ones

"I thought death was always quite absolute in its dealings - seems like the only option material offers is short time loser or long term loser - either way - loser"

We die, but according to you, we are reborn. Is one a "loser" for drinking water, because one's cup runs dry eventually?

considering the other option where your cup is eternally full -yes
and even taking birth means you have to go through the whole struggle of living in the womb etc etc just to try and re-establish what you lost in the last lifetime - in short its the activities of a loser

"SB 11.29.34: A person who gives up all fruitive activities and offers himself entirely unto Me, eagerly desiring to render service unto Me, achieves liberation from birth and death and is promoted to the status of sharing My own opulences. "

So wait, wait, wait. Now we get to have all power and such?

yes - but not in the sense that we become omnipotent like god - just that we are reinstated with the same qualities of eternity, knowledge and bliss- but if one is attracted to the power more than god one will never be able to climb out of nescience because one will be attacted by the external energy (power etc) of god