Material v. Spiritual Pleasures

[Satyr]

Well I could give you a rubber hand, but would that be the same? And will any hand do?

I wonder why a plastic one is not as good as a flesh one.
But I shouldn’t ask such uncomfortable questions.

Let us just say one has spirit animating it.

You overestimate, my dear.

You jump the gun, dear.
Over-thinking is relative.
Your vastly superior emotional reasoning would demand a higher level of thinking to become ‘over-thinking’ than mine.
You are a master at non-escapism.
You are in touch with the whole, with the spirit of being.
You feel it.

 

[S.A.M.]

I wonder why a plastic one is not as good as a flesh one.
But I shouldn’t ask such uncomfortable questions.

Let us just say one has spirit animating it.

So any hand will do?

You jump the gun, dear.
Over-thinking is relative.
Your vastly superior emotional reasoning would demand a higher level of thinking to become ‘over-thinking’ than mine.
You are a master at non-escapism.
You are in touch with the whole, with the spirit of being.
You feel it.

Several thoughts come to mind, but all involve your nether regions and are thus unprintable.

 

[Prince_James]

Perplexity:

"It is thus perceived because of the notorious falure to imagine the totality of the eventual demise of the self,
that "you can't take it with you", so to speak.

A Buddhist hopes to achieve Nirvana, which might be defined as a pure view of the reality,
by achieving that feat of the imagination, hence all the talk of "no self" and "attachment"

To have no self, is to have no "pure view" or any view at all. What is view without a viewer? Or to put it in a Buddhist context:

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

"When somebody appears to play the part of the victim, deliberately, and seems to put an awful lot of work toward that end,
it is often because of a terrifying power that they know they possess, but refuse to acknowledge for fear of the responsibility."

The "Dialectic of the Master and the Slave", as it were?

Though I would argue myself that a slavish person is not fearful of their power, but do not realize it. That is to say, the true slave does not only think he has no power, but does not think he has the capacity to. It is a double-defeat, one might say.

 

[SkinWalker]

LightGigantic and I have been debating whether it can be said that the material or spiritual pleasures are superior.

There are perceived 'spiritual' experiences, of this there is no doubt. They've been shown to exist by neuroscience. But these experiences are the result of chemicals and electrical activity in the brain just as all aesthetic experiences are.

The gambling addict can be said to have a psychological addiction, but this addiction is really just a chemical one after all when the act of gambling is analyzed and dopamine is shown to be delivered to the limbic system. The same can be said about sex and other pleasurable experiences.

For religious experiences, several recent studies have revealed the material nature of "spirituality."

"Spiritual experiences," even full blown delusions, are therefore just cognitive functions of the material world. "God" and "religion" are, by all available evidence, just chemical and electrical activity in the individual's brain.

 

[lightgigantic]

They are all going to die, but they go for the gold anyway.

I put it down to temporal myopia

--- Ron.

LOL

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

Many people take drugs and natural hallucinogens to produce same "experiences of God". Are we expected to believe them?

You are not expected to but you can if you want

Similarly, how are we expected to believe that one "knows" any of this, because one feels it?

Thats an epistemological question .... which brings us the question of the correct epistemology for perceiving god

Indeed a bit of austerity can be "poison at first, nectar at the end", but I'd actually claim that my "brick wall punching" is of that type. Though I originally bruised my hands, it is not an enjoyable experience of conquering and strengthening, as well as giving me the practical benefit of making my hands less likely to come to harm, by the strengthening of the bone and tissue from striking. It is actually a technique developed by Okinawan karate

Nope - its all tama guna (ignorance) - even if you develop fists of steel it doesn't actually protect your body because you will still get old (possibly with complex arthritic pain in your finger joints from punching brick walls as a youth) and die. Poison in the beginning and poison in the end.

So we are expected to be the mother, and God the child, in the analogy?

It wasn't an analogy to illustrate the archetype roles, it was an analogy to illustrate the phenomena of exchange - its not like the mother gets paid according to how nicely she looks after her child

So there is comparative ugliness in the spiritual world?

Nope

Why shouldn't love be as it is in the material world? If love is very important, why would one not put conditions upon it?

Because we are selfish (ie material - hae a concept of self that pertains to the material body)

Similarly, if God changed, would not we not love God?

God doesn't change - his form is eternal - actual the original form of the living entioty is also eternal too

Suppose that instead of being as great as you claim, he was a horrible despot, that did terrible things, and caused his worshippers and followers immeasurable pain for his sick enjoyment? Would we be told to love God?

Luckily god is not like that - sounds like a boss I used have though

Moreover, why would one love God in such a way?

Why do we love? Why can't we stop loving even if we want to?

A person wants to drink some juice. They get that juice, drink it, and then sigh in pleasure. In what way were their desires deflected?

Then they have to go to work and are so busy that they cannot drink juice.
Or a virus of "mad orange" disease threatens the supplies of juice wholesalers etc etc

Fulfilling our desires is completely dependant on time place and circumstance, all of which are way out of our hand

At the very least you would have trouble fulfilling your desire to drink juice somewhere in the middle of western australia

Perhaps you are taking an overally pessimistic view of life?

Its realistic - some of our desires some of the time but never all of our desires all of the time - even Freud and other such paragons of "If it feels good do it" acknowledges this - actually no matter which philosophy you advocate, the truth is that the material world is not the sphere of enjoyment, where you have to settle for quite a lot less than what you want

And if we did not have some barriers in life, however would we grow strong and powerful, which themselves are extremely pleasurable to become?

Yes - this is why people take drugs - seeing god is only a side effect

So wait. If we do a little bit of devotion - and I'd like you to quantify how much is a little bit - we get all this? So why then are people spending their whole lives, instead of five minutes of devoted effort?

I guess because they cannot muster enough sincerity to make 5 minutes worth of devotion potent

"Such happiness is automatically obtained without endeavor, just as we obtain distress"

Cannot this be said for devotional service, also? For if all actions are determined by our karma, then does it not stand to reason that even our devotional actions would be, too?

The proper existential condition for the performance of devotional service to the Lord is explained BG 18.54
One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.

whereas there are numerous descriptions of karma (which is pertient to conditioned life) such as 15.7

The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

"IN the same way that a fire makes us warm by its natural constutional position"

And if we don't find happiness in him, why does he not let us find happiness in other things?

In the same way that a fire doesn't "allow" us to reamin warm when we leave its shelter to take shelter of something else that is not fire

"How many times did you have to touch a hot iron before you worked out not to touch it anymore? "

Only once. But evidently, at the very least, I, and everyone here, have chosen to break away from God and we did not immediatly recoil from life, and in fact, has lingered here for perhaps millions, or even billions, of years. Similarly, that God was not worth staying with instead of seeking material pleasures...

Not everyone, the material manifestation is quite samll compared to the spiritual manifestation, just like the jail is quite small compared to the city in which it is housed.
And if a person wants to stay there it tends to indicate they have grown used to cold pizza I guess

 

[Carcano]

So to start off, LightGigantic, what is the exact nature of the pleasures we might expect in the hereafter if we pursue them?

Pleasure isn't the same as happiness. Even the most unhappy people can experience pleasure.

And spirituality is not about some 'other' place...a hereafter. Its potential is here, now, after and forever.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Theoryofrelativity:

Once again, I must remark: Intriguing!

And please, do not let me overally worry or concern you, but do you think that this could in anyway indicate a bad thing? Like for instance, he asks you whether you or happy or not afterwards, yes? Could this be because he is not sure? That he cannot determine such things? That is the only concern I have, that he is perhaps showing signs of being curious because he cannot honestly infer, cannot draw the conclusions, and this could indicate something wrong with him as it were.

Again, please do not let me worry you. I just want to put it out into the open, so you might tell me if I am completelyu wrong.

?

Because of his age ie 2.5 it is unusual to be that interested in others feeelings at all, for example developmentally, children generally do not 'play with other children' rather they play along side them until theya re 3+ and sharing is also a later development. Facial expressions and meanings etc is something they teach in nursery and first yr of school. It is his 'interest' that is intriguing for his age, my daughter aged 4 is just not intrested, if I were to cry, she would not be destracted from her play, but he would. It is an early interest and hence unusual, but he is kind, caring and sharing also. The facial thing is just part of his overall concern for others.

 

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

"You are not expected to but you can if you want"

Do you give these hallucinogenic drugs spiritual validity?

"Thats an epistemological question .... which brings us the question of the correct epistemology for perceiving god"

So if one feels God, it works, hence it is right?

"Nope - its all tama guna (ignorance) - even if you develop fists of steel it doesn't actually protect your body because you will still get old (possibly with complex arthritic pain in your finger joints from punching brick walls as a youth) and die. Poison in the beginning and poison in the end."

I may die, but I will also have lived.

Is not this all a man can ask for?

Similarly, vigorous physical activity is supposed to make one less likely to grow old negatively. Am I not then seeking a good end in that?

"It wasn't an analogy to illustrate the archetype roles, it was an analogy to illustrate the phenomena of exchange - its not like the mother gets paid according to how nicely she looks after her child"

Yet which would we be? The child or the mother?

"Nope"

One thing is more beautiful than the other. In what way is this not comparatively ugly?

"Because we are selfish (ie material - hae a concept of self that pertains to the material body)"

WHy should we not be? All our actions can be but such.

"God doesn't change - his form is eternal - actual the original form of the living entioty is also eternal too"

Yet, but suppose God did change. Would we not cease to love him?

"Luckily god is not like that - sounds like a boss I used have though"

I am not so certain. Considering the world as it is, one could indeed speak of God as a miserable demiurge.

"Why do we love? Why can't we stop loving even if we want to?

You cannot stop loving? I find it relatively easy.

"Then they have to go to work and are so busy that they cannot drink juice.
Or a virus of "mad orange" disease threatens the supplies of juice wholesalers etc etc"

Yet they still get the juice.

"Fulfilling our desires is completely dependant on time place and circumstance, all of which are way out of our hand"

What of will? Creating circumstances? Taking what is present?

"At the very least you would have trouble fulfilling your desire to drink juice somewhere in the middle of western australia"

Unless I was in Perth, where I would simply go to the corner store.

"Its realistic - some of our desires some of the time but never all of our desires all of the time - even Freud and other such paragons of "If it feels good do it" acknowledges this - actually no matter which philosophy you advocate, the truth is that the material world is not the sphere of enjoyment, where you have to settle for quite a lot less than what you want"

Perhaps the pleasure is in simply striving? I myself find such challenges intensely rewarding.

'Yes - this is why people take drugs - seeing god is only a side effect"

That there are barriers and some people aren't strong enough to meet them?

"I guess because they cannot muster enough sincerity to make 5 minutes worth of devotion potent "

How might one do this?

"The proper existential condition for the performance of devotional service to the Lord is explained BG 18.54..."

Yet is not our pursuit of such conditioned by karma?

"In the same way that a fire doesn't "allow" us to reamin warm when we leave its shelter to take shelter of something else that is not fire"

Yet you said God wished for us to be happy, did you not? And that he allows us to leave him, no? And it is certainly in his power to make us happy with other things, is it not?

"Not everyone, the material manifestation is quite samll compared to the spiritual manifestation, just like the jail is quite small compared to the city in which it is housed.
And if a person wants to stay there it tends to indicate they have grown used to cold pizza I guess "

So there are billions more spirits which are with God? Or just not in the "prison" of Earth?

Carcano :

"Pleasure isn't the same as happiness. Even the most unhappy people can experience pleasure."

What do you see as the difference?

"And spirituality is not about some 'other' place...a hereafter. Its potential is here, now, after and forever. "

How do you figure?

Theoryofrelativity:

Ah! Now I see more clearly. It is part of an overall framework of "altruism" (I hate the term due to its connotations, but cannot think of anything else), yes?

That is indeed rather intriguing that your son should develop such. It does strike me as uniquely special and fascinating.

Tell me, what are his other interests?

 

[Prince_James]

Perplexity:

"Unconjecturable. (another important Buddhist principle)

The challenge of the question is to find a nice way to tell your master to fuck off and stop kidding."

I would argue instead that it is to point out the inherent false premise of the question and the fact that it demonstrates the truth of such things as "no self, no senser".

Perhaps even more completely, another famous koan does this, too:

If a tree falls in the wood, but no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

"The not yet realized slave is easy to indentify by the lack of the going on about it endlessly"

Going on about their situation?

"I find it more useful to think in terms of the Drama Triangle."

Drama Triangle? I am not familiar?

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Theoryofrelativity:

Ah! Now I see more clearly. It is part of an overall framework of "altruism" (I hate the term due to its connotations, but cannot think of anything else), yes?

That is indeed rather intriguing that your son should develop such. It does strike me as uniquely special and fascinating.

Tell me, what are his other interests?

exactly right, he demonstrates a natural 'altruistic tendancy' rather than it being nurtured into him.

His other interests are pretty normal, kicking a ball around, drawing, jumping, crashing into things. He has very deep brown eyes and a lovely expressive face. He can get away with all manner of wrong doing due to his cheeky smile. His speech is quite advanced for his age, but other than that pretty normal.

 

[Prince_James]

TheoryOfRelativity:

Your son sounds absolutely adorable aside from being very intriguing! Quite the treasure!

Your mentioning that he has developed an advanced speech skill is most interesting, though. This may itself be linked to the desire for knowledge of the states of others, as speech itself is primarily a means whereby we attain to knowledge about the world around us indirectly.

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"You are not expected to but you can if you want"

Do you give these hallucinogenic drugs spiritual validity?

No - do you?

"Thats an epistemological question .... which brings us the question of the correct epistemology for perceiving god"

So if one feels God, it works, hence it is right?

No - I don't think I mentioned anywehere in the opener of the epistemology thread words to that effect

"Nope - its all tama guna (ignorance) - even if you develop fists of steel it doesn't actually protect your body because you will still get old (possibly with complex arthritic pain in your finger joints from punching brick walls as a youth) and die. Poison in the beginning and poison in the end."

I may die, but I will also have lived.

But you would have lived like a fool by punching brick walls

Is not this all a man can ask for?

He could try asking for a better engagement than punching brick walls

Similarly, vigorous physical activity is supposed to make one less likely to grow old negatively. Am I not then seeking a good end in that?

Brick wall punching aerobics? - considering that madness of contemporary society maybe there is a demograph for it

Fitness is one thing - there are many instructions for keeping healthy in the mode of goodness, and also indications whether one is doing it in passion or ignorance too.

"It wasn't an analogy to illustrate the archetype roles, it was an analogy to illustrate the phenomena of exchange - its not like the mother gets paid according to how nicely she looks after her child"

Yet which would we be? The child or the mother?

The mothers love is indicative of the nature of spiritual love (unmotivated - although its only an indication since close inspection can also reveal material motivations)
In terms of relationship between the living entity and god (whether the living entity is in ignorance or liberated) the baby is the example - ie completely dependant on the other for support and maintenance

"Nope"

One thing is more beautiful than the other. In what way is this not comparatively ugly?

Are all the women who lose at the miss america contest finals ugly?

"Because we are selfish (ie material - hae a concept of self that pertains to the material body)"

WHy should we not be? All our actions can be but such.

According to material vision -yes

"God doesn't change - his form is eternal - actual the original form of the living entioty is also eternal too"

Yet, but suppose God did change. Would we not cease to love him?

No - because one would be loving a material identity by such a change in definition (its just like asking is it possible to see with a light bulb that emits darkness)

"Luckily god is not like that - sounds like a boss I used have though"

I am not so certain.

Considerin g you don't even think god exists its understandable

Considering the world as it is, one could indeed speak of God as a miserable demiurge.

Depends why we are here in the first place - you can't say that the king is a jerk because the prisioners in his jails are not completely satisfied with the environment

"Why do we love? Why can't we stop loving even if we want to?

You cannot stop loving? I find it relatively easy.

lol - brave words of a bachelor - Whats the divorce rate at the moment?

"Then they have to go to work and are so busy that they cannot drink juice.
Or a virus of "mad orange" disease threatens the supplies of juice wholesalers etc etc"

Yet they still get the juice.

Whether you will fulfill your desire by drinking it is another thing

"Fulfilling our desires is completely dependant on time place and circumstance, all of which are way out of our hand"

What of will? Creating circumstances? Taking what is present?

And if the circumstances don't enable it to be present despite the will?

"At the very least you would have trouble fulfilling your desire to drink juice somewhere in the middle of western australia"

Unless I was in Perth, where I would simply go to the corner store.

Perth is on the coast - I am talking nothing 1000km in any direction

"Its realistic - some of our desires some of the time but never all of our desires all of the time - even Freud and other such paragons of "If it feels good do it" acknowledges this - actually no matter which philosophy you advocate, the truth is that the material world is not the sphere of enjoyment, where you have to settle for quite a lot less than what you want"

Perhaps the pleasure is in simply striving? I myself find such challenges intensely rewarding.

Yes that is the prominant philosophy of materialism - reach for the highs but jump over the lows - problem is that the highs are not really high and we are not so successful jumping over the lows

'Yes - this is why people take drugs - seeing god is only a side effect"

That there are barriers and some people aren't strong enough to meet them?

Well death is a pretty strong barrier - so is old age and disease - as far as I know these things have a 100% success rate for manifesting in everyone's life - and the succes rate hasn''t fluctuated since time immemorial

"I guess because they cannot muster enough sincerity to make 5 minutes worth of devotion potent "

How might one do this?

Lol - how is one sincere? By being sincere of course?
In other words if you begin from the outset that you will only do 5 minutes worth than you are not sincere - so how can one expect a result obtained from sincerity from such an insincere orientation?

"The proper existential condition for the performance of devotional service to the Lord is explained BG 18.54..."

Yet is not our pursuit of such conditioned by karma?

No - its clearly stated other wise - karma pertains to the three gunas (goodness, passion and ignorance) and devotional service is transcendental to these three gunas

"In the same way that a fire doesn't "allow" us to reamin warm when we leave its shelter to take shelter of something else that is not fire"

Yet you said God wished for us to be happy, did you not? And that he allows us to leave him, no? And it is certainly in his power to make us happy with other things, is it not?

The only thing that can make us happy is the direct association of god - if we don't want that and insist on looking for anything and everything else that might fit the bill then what should be done?
You could say he could force us - but that would extinguish our free will..
Hence the eg of th e fire

So there are billions more spirits which are with God?

Yes - more than billions actually

 

[Prince_James]

lightgigantic:

"No - do you?"

Then I fail to see how you can claim that "experiences" can verify God?

"No - I don't think I mentioned anywehere in the opener of the epistemology thread words to that effect"

What is 5b, then? "b) the unmediated apprehension of transcendence, as coveyed through scripture."

"But you would have lived like a fool by punching brick walls"

If my hands do not break when I pummel someone attempting to kill me or to kill someone else, perhaps you will think otherwise.

"He could try asking for a better engagement than punching brick walls"

I also like to put golf balls into a cup for putting practice.

"Brick wall punching aerobics? - considering that madness of contemporary society maybe there is a demograph for it"

Again: It has historical precedence in a health and combat focused system, I.E., Okinawan karate.

"Fitness is one thing - there are many instructions for keeping healthy in the mode of goodness, and also indications whether one is doing it in passion or ignorance too."

Oh?

"The mothers love is indicative of the nature of spiritual love (unmotivated - although its only an indication since close inspection can also reveal material motivations)"

So we would be hopelessly enamoured of God and want to tend to him?

"In terms of relationship between the living entity and god (whether the living entity is in ignorance or liberated) the baby is the example - ie completely dependant on the other for support and maintenance"

SO you are saying we'd be reduced to infantsin this spiritual reality? That we'd lose any power and independence and be completely within the realm of the control of another being? Perhaps even to the point of supplantation of our wills entirely?

"Are all the women who lose at the miss america contest finals ugly?"

Comparatively, yes. Otherwise they'd have won.

"According to material vision -yes"

How can one sacrifice the self if the attainment of any goal, even selflessness, is beneficial and value-affirming?

"No - because one would be loving a material identity by such a change in definition (its just like asking is it possible to see with a light bulb that emits darkness)"

I'll drop this line of reasoning, as yes, if we are speaking of an unchanging entity, it is silly.

"Depends why we are here in the first place - you can't say that the king is a jerk because the prisioners in his jails are not completely satisfied with the environment"

But we can say the king is a jerk if he has unjustly imprisoned said prisoners.

"lol - brave words of a bachelor - Whats the divorce rate at the moment?"

Ha ha. Yes.

"Whether you will fulfill your desire by drinking it is another thing"

If my desire is to drink juice, then drinking juice meets that desire. I might want more juice afterwards, but I satisfied "consume juice".

"And if the circumstances don't enable it to be present despite the will?"

Few circumstances do not admit to human ingenuity to solve them at least in part. We have built cities in deserts. In fact, cities where one can lose one's fortune and contract a venereal disease in the desert, even.

But yes, we can fail. Such is the game.

"Perth is on the coast - I am talking nothing 1000km in any direction"

I could have brought a juice pack.

Mmm, Mott's.

But no, you are correct. There are times where it would be more difficult.

"Yes that is the prominant philosophy of materialism - reach for the highs but jump over the lows - problem is that the highs are not really high and we are not so successful jumping over the lows"

How are the highs not highs? And if we stumble over a few lows, what's so bad about that?

"Well death is a pretty strong barrier - so is old age and disease - as far as I know these things have a 100% success rate for manifesting in everyone's life - and the succes rate hasn''t fluctuated since time immemorial"

Some people think we might soon be able to live functionally forever, unless we're killed by a freak accident.

"Lol - how is one sincere? By being sincere of course?
In other words if you begin from the outset that you will only do 5 minutes worth than you are not sincere - so how can one expect a result obtained from sincerity from such an insincere orientation?"

So basically, it's a system rigged so you have to do more in order to get this "five minutes worth", as that doesn't "count" as sincere?

"No - its clearly stated other wise - karma pertains to the three gunas (goodness, passion and ignorance) and devotional service is transcendental to these three gunas"

So the patch towards devotional service is not directed by karma at all? We can just start?

"The only thing that can make us happy is the direct association of god - if we don't want that and insist on looking for anything and everything else that might fit the bill then what should be done?
You could say he could force us - but that would extinguish our free will..
Hence the eg of th e fire"

So God cannot make us happy by his power? He cannot make "cheese" as powerful as he in making people happy?

"Yes - more than billions actually "

So how come there are quadtrillions of beings just on Earth?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

lightgigantic:

"No - do you?"

Then I fail to see how you can claim that "experiences" can verify God?

Either you are not taking enough drugs (since you want to adocate that taking drugs enables one to see god) or you are not applying the correct epistemology

"No - I don't think I mentioned anywehere in the opener of the epistemology thread words to that effect"

What is 5b, then? "b) the unmediated apprehension of transcendence, as coveyed through scripture."

That means that you come to the stage of directly perceiving what is written in scripture regarding transcendence - just like one may come to the stage of directly perceiving what is written in a physics book - doesn't innvolve faith , it innvolves application

"But you would have lived like a fool by punching brick walls"

If my hands do not break when I pummel someone attempting to kill me or to kill someone else, perhaps you will think otherwise.

What is the nature of your lifestyle that you devote your time to punching brickwalls to be prepared for such situations?

"He could try asking for a better engagement than punching brick walls"

I also like to put golf balls into a cup for putting practice.

So besides punching brick walls and engineering the trajectory for balls to go into holes - is there any other meaningful engagements in life?

"Brick wall punching aerobics? - considering that madness of contemporary society maybe there is a demograph for it"

Again: It has historical precedence in a health and combat focused system, I.E., Okinawan karate.

And I guess you have to determine whether the variables that surround the discipline of martial arts are still valid - like for instance if you were serious about avoiding getting attacked by unknown parties you would invest in firearms (which is more likely how you stand to be killed) - if you were serious about avoiding getting attacked by known parties you would invest in a good lawyer.
Either way, with or without karate, guns or lawyers you still stand to die in material life at any moment so in the long run your attempt to make your self invincible is a complete waste of time

"Fitness is one thing - there are many instructions for keeping healthy in the mode of goodness, and also indications whether one is doing it in passion or ignorance too."

Oh?

To begin with if one thinks that th e purpose of health is for any reason other to keep the body and soul together for further self realisation, it is in the mode of passion (developing attachment to the vigour of youth makes for greater mental distress when old age appears) or ignorance (ultimately the body will die so you haven't really protected your life)

"The mothers love is indicative of the nature of spiritual love (unmotivated - although its only an indication since close inspection can also reveal material motivations)"

So we would be hopelessly enamoured of God and want to tend to him?

Something like that

"In terms of relationship between the living entity and god (whether the living entity is in ignorance or liberated) the baby is the example - ie completely dependant on the other for support and maintenance"

SO you are saying we'd be reduced to infantsin this spiritual reality?

In case you haven't noticed - we already are - we are completely dependant on the material world to provide us with such bare necessities like water oxegyn etc

That we'd lose any power and independence and be completely within the realm of the control of another being?

Because you are in illusion you cannot see that you already are

Perhaps even to the point of supplantation of our wills entirely?

I can see you are in need of a big wake up call

"Are all the women who lose at the miss america contest finals ugly?"

Comparatively, yes. Otherwise they'd have won.

Then why would such losers put this information on their resumes?
In otherwords losing the miss america contest still seems to carry some prestige

"According to material vision -yes"

How can one sacrifice the self if the attainment of any goal, even selflessness, is beneficial and value-affirming?

Back to the mother and the baby eg
Love conquers all

"No - because one would be loving a material identity by such a change in definition (its just like asking is it possible to see with a light bulb that emits darkness)"

I'll drop this line of reasoning, as yes, if we are speaking of an unchanging entity, it is silly.

the point is that your redefinition of god is an absurdity

"Depends why we are here in the first place - you can't say that the king is a jerk because the prisioners in his jails are not completely satisfied with the environment"

But we can say the king is a jerk if he has unjustly imprisoned said prisoners.

So why do you think you are unjustly being punished?

"Whether you will fulfill your desire by drinking it is another thing"

If my desire is to drink juice, then drinking juice meets that desire. I might want more juice afterwards, but I satisfied "consume juice".

You missed the point - if you had the knowledge that the juice was poisoned your desire would be frustrated due to the application of good intelligence - the absence of good intelligence is something else ....

"And if the circumstances don't enable it to be present despite the will?"

Few circumstances do not admit to human ingenuity to solve them at least in part. We have built cities in deserts. In fact, cities where one can lose one's fortune and contract a venereal disease in the desert, even.

You seem to be indicating more frustrated desires in the material world -lol

But yes, we can fail. Such is the game.

"Perth is on the coast - I am talking nothing 1000km in any direction"

I could have brought a juice pack.

Mmm, Mott's.

But no, you are correct. There are times where it would be more difficult.

Hence the conclusion is that satisfying material desire in the material world is never a case of everywhere all the time - even if you are a die hard freudian

"Yes that is the prominant philosophy of materialism - reach for the highs but jump over the lows - problem is that the highs are not really high and we are not so successful jumping over the lows"

How are the highs not highs?

Because by your own admission they are punctuated by misery

And if we stumble over a few lows, what's so bad about that?

It indicates failure - ie the frustration of one's desires

"Well death is a pretty strong barrier - so is old age and disease - as far as I know these things have a 100% success rate for manifesting in everyone's life - and the succes rate hasn''t fluctuated since time immemorial"

Some people think we might soon be able to live functionally forever, unless we're killed by a freak accident.

Nevertheless they will still die - death has such equal vision it doesn't regard what you think - same with old age and disease - they don't discriminate

"Lol - how is one sincere? By being sincere of course?
In other words if you begin from the outset that you will only do 5 minutes worth than you are not sincere - so how can one expect a result obtained from sincerity from such an insincere orientation?"

So basically, it's a system rigged so you have to do more in order to get this "five minutes worth", as that doesn't "count" as sincere?

If you are sincere about drinking a glass of water, which one can do in about 10 seconds, does that mean that if you encounter problems (ie your glass is empty) doesn't sincerity require that you go to the kitchen to get a refill, even though that will exceed the ten second estimation?

"No - its clearly stated other wise - karma pertains to the three gunas (goodness, passion and ignorance) and devotional service is transcendental to these three gunas"

So the patch towards devotional service is not directed by karma at all? We can just start?

Yes

"The only thing that can make us happy is the direct association of god - if we don't want that and insist on looking for anything and everything else that might fit the bill then what should be done?
You could say he could force us - but that would extinguish our free will..
Hence the eg of th e fire"

So God cannot make us happy by his power?

Yes - but that power is his internal potency - if we reject that, we reject the opportunity to be happy

He cannot make "cheese" as powerful as he in making people happy?

Yes he can - but we would reject that cheese for the same reason that we rejected god

"Yes - more than billions actually "

So how come there are quadtrillions of beings just on Earth?

Because there are quadtrillions more in the spiritual world

 

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

"Either you are not taking enough drugs (since you want to adocate that taking drugs enables one to see god) or you are not applying the correct epistemology"

Funny, I just realized something: Your religion does support drug use for God. Soma. The hallucinogen.

But remember: LSD users often claim to have had that person experience with God.

"That means that you come to the stage of directly perceiving what is written in scripture regarding transcendence - just like one may come to the stage of directly perceiving what is written in a physics book - doesn't innvolve faith , it innvolves application"

So if someone directly perceives God, they have knowledge of God which can be trusted?

See above with drugs.

"What is the nature of your lifestyle that you devote your time to punching brickwalls to be prepared for such situations?"

Actually, I live in a remarkably safe neighbourhood filled with lesbians, WASPS, and Liberal Jews. I just like to be prepared and I enjoy activities which increase my strength.

"So besides punching brick walls and engineering the trajectory for balls to go into holes - is there any other meaningful engagements in life?"

Plenty. Those are just two of my most frivolous hobbies.

I am more often occupied in reading.

"And I guess you have to determine whether the variables that surround the discipline of martial arts are still valid - like for instance if you were serious about avoiding getting attacked by unknown parties you would invest in firearms (which is more likely how you stand to be killed) - if you were serious about avoiding getting attacked by known parties you would invest in a good lawyer."

New York has restrictive firearms laws, as well as crazy anti-gun nuts that would prosecute me if I ever had to shoot someone.

"Either way, with or without karate, guns or lawyers you still stand to die in material life at any moment so in the long run your attempt to make your self invincible is a complete waste of time"

My hands will get dirty again, should I not wash them after eating or using the bathroom?

"To begin with if one thinks that th e purpose of health is for any reason other to keep the body and soul together for further self realisation, it is in the mode of passion (developing attachment to the vigour of youth makes for greater mental distress when old age appears) or ignorance (ultimately the body will die so you haven't really protected your life)"

So what sort of exercise is this? Yoga?

"Something like that"

But God could not need our love. A mother loves her child at least in part because of its vulnerability.

"In case you haven't noticed - we already are - we are completely dependant on the material world to provide us with such bare necessities like water oxegyn etc"

Only in the sense that we cannot engineer (yet) our necessities for us. But what we can, we rape from a cruel nature. To subjugate ourselves willing to a cosmic entity of any sort, however, seems like utter and dire Hell.

However, let us also go back to what this would fully entail. Describe the supposed state of the self in regards to this base servitude?

"Because you are in illusion you cannot see that you already are"

I take what I need from life, much to the chagrin of the universe. We all do.

"I can see you are in need of a big wake up call"

You think that we have no control over our one will?

"Then why would such losers put this information on their resumes?
In otherwords losing the miss america contest still seems to carry some prestige"

Yes, as one is only supposed to be uglier than a handful of women, but more beautiful than all others.

"Back to the mother and the baby eg
Love conquers all"

Yet the mother gains that attainment of love. Not selfless at all, but profoundly selfish, like all things.

"the point is that your redefinition of god is an absurdity"

Him as an all-good being is far more absurd, when it is clear that such theodicy cannot make a coherent worldview.

"So why do you think you are unjustly being punished?"

Epicurus' Riddle:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

"You missed the point - if you had the knowledge that the juice was poisoned your desire would be frustrated due to the application of good intelligence - the absence of good intelligence is something else ...."

Indeed, but then I'd simply get other juice. Or I would choose to simply drink water or wine.

"You seem to be indicating more frustrated desires in the material world -lol"

Ha ha.

"Hence the conclusion is that satisfying material desire in the material world is never a case of everywhere all the time - even if you are a die hard freudian"

I agree. There are times when one's desires will be frustrated.

Such is the way of the world.

It is the overcoming of one's frustration-obstacles that is the mark of the superior man of drive and ingenuity.

"Because by your own admission they are punctuated by misery"

So? The highs are not themselves tainted by the misery. Moreover, one could even say the misery makes them better.

Have you never drank a nice cold glass of water after being outside in the scorching sun? How much mroe enjoyable is it, no?

Misery can be a gourmet spice par excellence.

"It indicates failure - ie the frustration of one's desires"

So? One has failed. One goes on.

In fact, what is more an ultimate failure than making yourself the mindless slave of a God for eternity?

"Nevertheless they will still die - death has such equal vision it doesn't regard what you think - same with old age and disease - they don't discriminate"

They will still die? Not necessarily. If what some transhumanists say, we could live forever. Litterally.

"If you are sincere about drinking a glass of water, which one can do in about 10 seconds, does that mean that if you encounter problems (ie your glass is empty) doesn't sincerity require that you go to the kitchen to get a refill, even though that will exceed the ten second estimation?"

If the idea was to "drink water for ten seconds only", then no. Sincerity of that action does not depend on whether one intends to drink after that, or to take up more of the drink if it exceeds that.

"Yes"

Why is devotional service so unique in that it does not have karmic foundations?

"Yes - but that power is his internal potency - if we reject that, we reject the opportunity to be happy"

He cannot mask it? Or give the necessary potency to something else?

"Yes he can - but we would reject that cheese for the same reason that we rejected god"

If our strivings were towards cheese in the first place, why would we?

"Because there are quadtrillions more in the spiritual world"

How do you know that God is not alone but for a few spirits of some sages?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"Either you are not taking enough drugs (since you want to adocate that taking drugs enables one to see god) or you are not applying the correct epistemology"

Funny, I just realized something: Your religion does support drug use for God. Soma. The hallucinogen.

The only evidence that soma is a narcotic is in the books of pseudo intellectual hippies who desire to mystify their vices - at the very least there is no vedic evidence for such claims

But remember: LSD users often claim to have had that person experience with God.

They also claim to be seeing atoms splitting as well or the other side of the planet by staring face down in a mud puddle - what's your point?

"That means that you come to the stage of directly perceiving what is written in scripture regarding transcendence - just like one may come to the stage of directly perceiving what is written in a physics book - doesn't innvolve faith , it innvolves application"

So if someone directly perceives God, they have knowledge of God which can be trusted?

See above with drugs.

Just as there are other means to qualify whether one has actually seen atoms split and th eother side of the planet there are also other means to qualify whether one has seen god - its all there in the epistemology thread

"So besides punching brick walls and engineering the trajectory for balls to go into holes - is there any other meaningful engagements in life?"

Plenty. Those are just two of my most frivolous hobbies.

I am more often occupied in reading.

I humbly offer that you have more to gain by reading than your two favourite frivolous occupations

"Either way, with or without karate, guns or lawyers you still stand to die in material life at any moment so in the long run your attempt to make your self invincible is a complete waste of time"

My hands will get dirty again, should I not wash them after eating or using the bathroom?

BY all means yes you should - after all there is a strong liklihood of you requiring clean hands in daily life - the same can not be said of martial arts and the like if your sole view for endeavouring in that way is to maintain your life - there is one scripture (name escapes me but I will remember it later) about a king who had sons that were compleet fools, so he utilised the skill sof one brahmin to make them worthy subjects for the throne - the introductory premise for the brahmins conversation was that knowledge can protect one more than martial skills

"To begin with if one thinks that th e purpose of health is for any reason other to keep the body and soul together for further self realisation, it is in the mode of passion (developing attachment to the vigour of youth makes for greater mental distress when old age appears) or ignorance (ultimately the body will die so you haven't really protected your life)"

So what sort of exercise is this? Yoga?

Yoga means connection - in other words the perfection of yoga culminates in copnnecting to god - any other idea is a deviation - Krsna says explicitly that the best of yogis is one who thinks of him, not the one who can tie themselves up like a pretzell

"Something like that"

But God could not need our love. A mother loves her child at least in part because of its vulnerability.

Therefore god is magnanimous just like the mother

"In case you haven't noticed - we already are - we are completely dependant on the material world to provide us with such bare necessities like water oxegyn etc"

Only in the sense that we cannot engineer (yet) our necessities for us.

lol - I've noticed - and just see how many environmental problems have arisen out of our engineering - we seem to be making things worse than better

But what we can, we rape from a cruel nature. To subjugate ourselves willing to a cosmic entity of any sort, however, seems like utter and dire Hell.

lol - in case you haven't noticed, we have already arrived

However, let us also go back to what this would fully entail. Describe the supposed state of the self in regards to this base servitude?

Spontaneous servive is performed by the living entity towards god - because that service is done with love, god reciprocates with the quality of love - if the service is done with a material desire, god also reciprocates with that by granting results in the material energy (since taht is our desire) - the problem is that the material energy makes us miserable

"I can see you are in need of a big wake up call"

You think that we have no control over our one will?

We do - but to be in control of the self is the perfection of spiritual discipline - over 99% of the tine peopel think they are making decisions in life but they are just mindless servants of the senses or genitals

"Then why would such losers put this information on their resumes?
In otherwords losing the miss america contest still seems to carry some prestige"

Yes, as one is only supposed to be uglier than a handful of women, but more beautiful than all others.

It still has merit since no woman would put info on her resume to declar e how ugly she is

"Back to the mother and the baby eg
Love conquers all"

Yet the mother gains that attainment of love. Not selfless at all, but profoundly selfish, like all things.

Actually the mother gains pooey nappies and constant disturbances to her sleep and other daily functions

"the point is that your redefinition of god is an absurdity"

Him as an all-good being is far more absurd, when it is clear that such theodicy cannot make a coherent worldview.

Again - you asume that the mateial world, which is like a prison, should be like heaven if there is a good god - if you have an absurd world view as a premise I can understand why you cannot properly entertain the notion of god

"So why do you think you are unjustly being punished?"

Epicurus' Riddle:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

Notice how he conveniently leaves out the question of the living entities free will

"Hence the conclusion is that satisfying material desire in the material world is never a case of everywhere all the time - even if you are a die hard freudian"

I agree. There are times when one's desires will be frustrated.

Such is the way of the world.

It is the overcoming of one's frustration-obstacles that is the mark of the superior man of drive and ingenuity.

Hence life (particularly the human form) is meant for austerity to cultivate this quality of forbearance - rather than sense pleasure, which is the helpless state of animals - and while punching brick walls is one way to develop tolerance, the real work of developing tolerance is developing tolerance in regard to one's material desires

BG 2.70 A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires — that enter like rivers into the ocean, which is ever being filled but is always still — can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires.

"Because by your own admission they are punctuated by misery"

So? The highs are not themselves tainted by the misery. Moreover, one could even say the misery makes them better.

Yes misery loves company -lol

Have you never drank a nice cold glass of water after being outside in the scorching sun? How much mroe enjoyable is it, no?

Do you out in the hot sun solely for th e purpose of enjoying teh water after wards? Like would go to get a glass of water and then stop and think "Hey why don't I run around the house 20 times in the peak of this summer sun and then have a drink of water."

Misery can be a gourmet spice par excellence.

Only if one has the culinary palate of a fool

"It indicates failure - ie the frustration of one's desires"

So? One has failed. One goes on.

There's nothing with suffering - in fact its inevitable in material life- its only when it becomes needless suffering that it is seriously problematic

In fact, what is more an ultimate failure than making yourself the mindless slave of a God for eternity?

Making yourself a mindless servant of god's material energy which innvolves constant concomitant factors of birth, death, old age and disease and sufferings inflicted by one's own body and mind, the bodies of other living entities and forces of nature like rain and earthquakes in a medium of developing extreme attachment to similar fallible and transiet articles and entities

"Nevertheless they will still die - death has such equal vision it doesn't regard what you think - same with old age and disease - they don't discriminate"

They will still die? Not necessarily. If what some transhumanists say, we could live forever. Litterally.

They can say whatever they want but they will still die - death doesn't care whether you are a transhumanist or not

"If you are sincere about drinking a glass of water, which one can do in about 10 seconds, does that mean that if you encounter problems (ie your glass is empty) doesn't sincerity require that you go to the kitchen to get a refill, even though that will exceed the ten second estimation?"

If the idea was to "drink water for ten seconds only", then no. Sincerity of that action does not depend on whether one intends to drink after that, or to take up more of the drink if it exceeds that.

Therefore you don't find descriptions of the glories of performing devotional service to god with the initial mindset of doing it all in 5 minutes

"Yes"

Why is devotional service so unique in that it does not have karmic foundations?

Karma involves operating out of the principle that I am the enjoyer, and beneficiary of all sacrifices and devotional service operates out of the principle that god is the enjoyer etc - in one case one is working for one's own aggrandizement, in the other one is working for god - for instance suppose a person gives in charity because they think that they have worked so hard for this money and they are being magnanimous by giving it away - that is karma (albeit good karma) - on the other hand a person who gives away charity thinking that one's wealth is actually the property of god and that it was personaly bestowed upon them as a caretaker rather tyan owner and therefore the money should be used to further god's desires - that is devotional service, which offers a transcendental result beyond mere good karma - this is the distinction betwen mundane morality and actual religion

"Yes - but that power is his internal potency - if we reject that, we reject the opportunity to be happy"

He cannot mask it? Or give the necessary potency to something else?

this is answered in the next response

"Yes he can - but we would reject that cheese for the same reason that we rejected god"

If our strivings were towards cheese in the first place, why would we?

Because more than being cheese this would be the cheese of god - just like a person who suffers from severe animosity towards another may not accept their money, even though they are ordinarily quite receptive to financial donations

"Because there are quadtrillions more in the spiritual world"

How do you know that God is not alone but for a few spirits of some sages?

Not all descriptions in scripture are normative - on the contrary how do you know he isn't?

 

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

"The only evidence that soma is a narcotic is in the books of pseudo intellectual hippies who desire to mystify their vices - at the very least there is no vedic evidence for such claims"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma

Even if not a hallucinogen, it is a plant-based drug.

"They also claim to be seeing atoms splitting as well or the other side of the planet by staring face down in a mud puddle - what's your point?"

By your definition, if their ontology works...

"Just as there are other means to qualify whether one has actually seen atoms split and th eother side of the planet there are also other means to qualify whether one has seen god - its all there in the epistemology thread"

So you are claiming now that you can invalidate LSD experiences, but not meditational experiences?

"I humbly offer that you have more to gain by reading than your two favourite frivolous occupations"

I agree, that is why I read significantly each day.

"BY all means yes you should - after all there is a strong liklihood of you requiring clean hands in daily life - the same can not be said of martial arts and the like if your sole view for endeavouring in that way is to maintain your life - there is one scripture (name escapes me but I will remember it later) about a king who had sons that were compleet fools, so he utilised the skill sof one brahmin to make them worthy subjects for the throne - the introductory premise for the brahmins conversation was that knowledge can protect one more than martial skills"

Indeed it can. But is it ever good to lack anything? And if faced with a gun, would certain knowledges not become useless whereas martial knowledge would be useful?

"Yoga means connection - in other words the perfection of yoga culminates in copnnecting to god - any other idea is a deviation - Krsna says explicitly that the best of yogis is one who thinks of him, not the one who can tie themselves up like a pretzell"

Yet in terms of exercising, are you suggesting yoga? Or what?

"Therefore god is magnanimous just like the mother"

So he allows us to love him as if he were vulnerable?

"lol - I've noticed - and just see how many environmental problems have arisen out of our engineering - we seem to be making things worse than better"

We have enviromental problems, but we live thrice as long and thrice as better, can travel the world in hours when it could have taken years beforehand...

We are unto the Gods in power.

"Spontaneous servive is performed by the living entity towards god - because that service is done with love, god reciprocates with the quality of love - if the service is done with a material desire, god also reciprocates with that by granting results in the material energy (since taht is our desire) - the problem is that the material energy makes us miserable"

Have you ever had a nice bowl of icecream? Did that make you miserable at the time?

"We do - but to be in control of the self is the perfection of spiritual discipline - over 99% of the tine peopel think they are making decisions in life but they are just mindless servants of the senses or genitals"

If following the senses and genitals is of benefit to them, are they really "mindless slaves"? However, yes, some people need to learn some self control.

"It still has merit since no woman would put info on her resume to declar e how ugly she is"

Indeed, because the greater beauty generally outweighs the minor ugliness.

"Actually the mother gains pooey nappies and constant disturbances to her sleep and other daily functions"

Yet she values the baby more than such things. Thus it is of benefit, despite the work.

"Again - you asume that the mateial world, which is like a prison, should be like heaven if there is a good god - if you have an absurd world view as a premise I can understand why you cannot properly entertain the notion of god"

Do you claim that God is perfect and all good?

"Notice how he conveniently leaves out the question of the living entities free will"

Yet even you admit that God has this supposed free will + goodness. Moreover, free will can be restrained when evil comes from it, can it not? THey'd have free will to do good.

"Hence life (particularly the human form) is meant for austerity to cultivate this quality of forbearance - rather than sense pleasure, which is the helpless state of animals - and while punching brick walls is one way to develop tolerance, the real work of developing tolerance is developing tolerance in regard to one's material desires"

Indeed, there is something to be said about discipline. Yet if one has no desires, one has no reason to live, and losing such reason, becomes wasteful. Rather than elliminate desires, we ought to cultivate the taste of superior desires. Of greatness and excellence.

"Do you out in the hot sun solely for th e purpose of enjoying teh water after wards? Like would go to get a glass of water and then stop and think "Hey why don't I run around the house 20 times in the peak of this summer sun and then have a drink of water.""

That actually might be a good idea if I wanted something truly pleasurable. But if one were to instead substitute challenge for this, then yes, I do look to do those things. I always try to seek something which forces me to be better.

"There's nothing with suffering - in fact its inevitable in material life- its only when it becomes needless suffering that it is seriously problematic"

If there is no pleasure without suffering, then the cessation of suffering entails the cessation of pleasure.

"Making yourself a mindless servant of god's material energy which innvolves constant concomitant factors of birth, death, old age and disease and sufferings inflicted by one's own body and mind, the bodies of other living entities and forces of nature like rain and earthquakes in a medium of developing extreme attachment to similar fallible and transiet articles and entities"

The mindless servant of such things? We strive against them and conquer them, whereas we'd be at the beck and call of God in this spirit realm, where resistance is apparently impossible.

"They can say whatever they want but they will still die - death doesn't care whether you are a transhumanist or not"

Suppose they made themselves into robots and kept on and on repairing themselves. Do not they have a strong chance of surviving for aeons, if not indefinitely?

"Therefore you don't find descriptions of the glories of performing devotional service to god with the initial mindset of doing it all in 5 minutes"

Why does it not? It is the same thing as doing it indefinitely. ANd indeed, if one were to be guaranteed a good end for doing five minutes of devotional work, I say it would be anyone's best niterest to do as such.

"Karma involves operating out of the principle that I am the enjoyer, and beneficiary of all sacrifices and devotional service operates out of the principle that god is the enjoyer etc - in one case one is working for one's own aggrandizement, in the other one is working for god - for instance suppose a person gives in charity because they think that they have worked so hard for this money and they are being magnanimous by giving it away - that is karma (albeit good karma) - on the other hand a person who gives away charity thinking that one's wealth is actually the property of god and that it was personaly bestowed upon them as a caretaker rather tyan owner and therefore the money should be used to further god's desires - that is devotional service, which offers a transcendental result beyond mere good karma - this is the distinction betwen mundane morality and actual religion"

Yet in claiming such is a value, one is benefitting oneself. That is, even such "selfless" devotion to God, entails a looking out for the attainment of value and benefit.

"Because more than being cheese this would be the cheese of god - just like a person who suffers from severe animosity towards another may not accept their money, even though they are ordinarily quite receptive to financial donations"

Can't God hide that it is "cheese from God"?

"Not all descriptions in scripture are normative - on the contrary how do you know he isn't? "

Well, for one, the fact that it is apparently in human nature to want to experience the material world.

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

"The only evidence that soma is a narcotic is in the books of pseudo intellectual hippies who desire to mystify their vices - at the very least there is no vedic evidence for such claims"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma

As you can imagine, I could have a field day deconstructing the information of this page on the strength of vedic information

Even if not a hallucinogen, it is a plant-based drug.

No - its not even that

"They also claim to be seeing atoms splitting as well or the other side of the planet by staring face down in a mud puddle - what's your point?"

By your definition, if their ontology works...

Ithink you mean epistemology - and since it innvolves making the senses very malleable and unreliable (which BTW is not advocated in the correct religious epistemology) the ontological conclusions are highly suspicious

"Just as there are other means to qualify whether one has actually seen atoms split and th eother side of the planet there are also other means to qualify whether one has seen god - its all there in the epistemology thread"

So you are claiming now that you can invalidate LSD experiences, but not meditational experiences?

Yes - because the accounts of seeing god (or rather, being god, which is the common "spiritual experience" of such foolishness) don't tally with previous accounts or scriptural evidence - much in the saem way that seeing atoms split etc also while under the influence also doesn't tally with the established scientific body of work

"BY all means yes you should - after all there is a strong liklihood of you requiring clean hands in daily life - the same can not be said of martial arts and the like if your sole view for endeavouring in that way is to maintain your life - there is one scripture (name escapes me but I will remember it later) about a king who had sons that were compleet fools, so he utilised the skill sof one brahmin to make them worthy subjects for the throne - the introductory premise for the brahmins conversation was that knowledge can protect one more than martial skills"

Indeed it can. But is it ever good to lack anything? And if faced with a gun, would certain knowledges not become useless whereas martial knowledge would be useful?

Well if you lack knowledge in such situations a burgeoning sense of bravado could just as likely get you killed too - and even if you come out the hero time still kills you in the long run anyway unless you develop a type of knowledge that is uniquely available in the human form of life - the book was called Hitopadesa - kind of like a precurser to aesop's fables

"Yoga means connection - in other words the perfection of yoga culminates in copnnecting to god - any other idea is a deviation - Krsna says explicitly that the best of yogis is one who thinks of him, not the one who can tie themselves up like a pretzell"

Yet in terms of exercising, are you suggesting yoga? Or what?

If all one is interested in in the name of exercise yoga is bodilyhealth it is not a bad option - even atheists do it too -lol -

"Therefore god is magnanimous just like the mother"

So he allows us to love him as if he were vulnerable?

Yes

"lol - I've noticed - and just see how many environmental problems have arisen out of our engineering - we seem to be making things worse than better"

We have enviromental problems, but we live thrice as long and thrice as better, can travel the world in hours when it could have taken years beforehand...

We are unto the Gods in power.

Unfortunately we are lower than hogs, dogs and camels in terms of intelligence though - in other words our material advancements are mostly used for fulfilling lower than animal propensities-as for living thrice as long - you don't arrive at that estimation if you include abortions into the average age.

"Spontaneous servive is performed by the living entity towards god - because that service is done with love, god reciprocates with the quality of love - if the service is done with a material desire, god also reciprocates with that by granting results in the material energy (since taht is our desire) - the problem is that the material energy makes us miserable"

Have you ever had a nice bowl of icecream? Did that make you miserable at the time?

Then there is the absence of ice cream when one desires it or over eating ice cream - inother words all our material pleasures exist between two dualities that see us suffer because they all pertain to the body which is constantly threatened with weakness and non- existence

"We do - but to be in control of the self is the perfection of spiritual discipline - over 99% of the tine peopel think they are making decisions in life but they are just mindless servants of the senses or genitals"

If following the senses and genitals is of benefit to them, are they really "mindless slaves"? However, yes, some people need to learn some self control.

I cannot conceive of a circumstance where serving the genitals and senses will benefit you - I mean we feel hungry and thirsty for a reason - i don't denythat - but how much of what we feel the "need" to do is actually necessary for our continued material existence (eating because we require nutrition etc) and how much is because of impulse? How many times do you suppose your average man has passed semen before the age of 25 solely for the purpose of procreation?

"It still has merit since no woman would put info on her resume to declar e how ugly she is"

Indeed, because the greater beauty generally outweighs the minor ugliness.

generally the way it works out that the winner gets the prize because she is more beautiful rather than the least ugliest (although maybe if they had a really low class line up they could theoretically discriminate on those grounds) - like they don't say "and the second least ugliest contestant is Miss Florida" or whatever

"Actually the mother gains pooey nappies and constant disturbances to her sleep and other daily functions"

Yet she values the baby more than such things. Thus it is of benefit, despite the work.

That is the inconceivable nature of a mothers causeless love - if you pooed your pants in public nobody else would be your friend what to speak of constant well wisher

"Again - you asume that the mateial world, which is like a prison, should be like heaven if there is a good god - if you have an absurd world view as a premise I can understand why you cannot properly entertain the notion of god"

Do you claim that God is perfect and all good?

Yes - but before you begin part of that goodness innvolves bestowing upon us free will, without which there is no question of pure love

"Notice how he conveniently leaves out the question of the living entities free will"

Yet even you admit that God has this supposed free will + goodness. Moreover, free will can be restrained when evil comes from it, can it not? THey'd have free will to do good.

So because we have misused free will , ie decided to be seperate from god, we have the material world full of all its delights - in other words if you bite your own tongue, who else can you blame?

"Hence life (particularly the human form) is meant for austerity to cultivate this quality of forbearance - rather than sense pleasure, which is the helpless state of animals - and while punching brick walls is one way to develop tolerance, the real work of developing tolerance is developing tolerance in regard to one's material desires"

Indeed, there is something to be said about discipline. Yet if one has no desires, one has no reason to live, and losing such reason, becomes wasteful. Rather than elliminate desires, we ought to cultivate the taste of superior desires. Of greatness and excellence.

exactly - this is why krishna says

BG 2.59
The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.

and also

Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

BG 3.6: One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender.

BG 3.7: On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Kṛṣṇa consciousness] without attachment, he is by far superior.

"Do you out in the hot sun solely for th e purpose of enjoying teh water after wards? Like would go to get a glass of water and then stop and think "Hey why don't I run around the house 20 times in the peak of this summer sun and then have a drink of water.""

That actually might be a good idea if I wanted something truly pleasurable. But if one were to instead substitute challenge for this, then yes, I do look to do those things. I always try to seek something which forces me to be better.

well I propose that there are more intelligent ways to achieve and appreciate pleasure - this is sado masochism

"There's nothing with suffering - in fact its inevitable in material life- its only when it becomes needless suffering that it is seriously problematic"

If there is no pleasure without suffering, then the cessation of suffering entails the cessation of pleasure.

Well that brings us to the topic of transcendental pleasure, which is not subject to such dualistic definitions

"Making yourself a mindless servant of god's material energy which innvolves constant concomitant factors of birth, death, old age and disease and sufferings inflicted by one's own body and mind, the bodies of other living entities and forces of nature like rain and earthquakes in a medium of developing extreme attachment to similar fallible and transiet articles and entities"

The mindless servant of such things? We strive against them and conquer them, whereas we'd be at the beck and call of God in this spirit realm, where resistance is apparently impossible.

We conquer them? We are conquered by all of them.
This even contains the word ontology

"They can say whatever they want but they will still die - death doesn't care whether you are a transhumanist or not"

Suppose they made themselves into robots and kept on and on repairing themselves. Do not they have a strong chance of surviving for aeons, if not indefinitely?

Well there are a few scientific snags there - the first one being a mechanistic reduction for consciousness ......

"Therefore you don't find descriptions of the glories of performing devotional service to god with the initial mindset of doing it all in 5 minutes"

Why does it not? It is the same thing as doing it indefinitely. ANd indeed, if one were to be guaranteed a good end for doing five minutes of devotional work, I say it would be anyone's best niterest to do as such.

If it was the same thing as doing it indefinitely you would have no problems if it was required that you do it indefinitely - actually the problem is that in a jaundiced state of sickness even sweet things taste bitter

NOI
The holy name, character, pastimes and activities of Kṛṣṇa are all transcendentally sweet like sugar candy. Although the tongue of one afflicted by the jaundice of avidyā [ignorance] cannot taste anything sweet, it is wonderful that simply by carefully chanting these sweet names every day, a natural relish awakens within his tongue, and his disease is gradually destroyed at the root.

"Karma involves operating out of the principle that I am the enjoyer, and beneficiary of all sacrifices and devotional service operates out of the principle that god is the enjoyer etc - in one case one is working for one's own aggrandizement, in the other one is working for god - for instance suppose a person gives in charity because they think that they have worked so hard for this money and they are being magnanimous by giving it away - that is karma (albeit good karma) - on the other hand a person who gives away charity thinking that one's wealth is actually the property of god and that it was personaly bestowed upon them as a caretaker rather tyan owner and therefore the money should be used to further god's desires - that is devotional service, which offers a transcendental result beyond mere good karma - this is the distinction betwen mundane morality and actual religion"

Yet in claiming such is a value, one is benefitting oneself. That is, even such "selfless" devotion to God, entails a looking out for the attainment of value and benefit.

No - then it is not suddha bhakti (pure unmotivated devotional service)

CC Mad 19.167
"'When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, as Kṛṣṇa desires.'

"Because more than being cheese this would be the cheese of god - just like a person who suffers from severe animosity towards another may not accept their money, even though they are ordinarily quite receptive to financial donations"

Can't God hide that it is "cheese from God"?

He can - but then it would be mundane cheese - all cheese comes from god since he is the source of all material and spiritual manifestations

BG 10.8 I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.

"Not all descriptions in scripture are normative - on the contrary how do you know he isn't? "

Well, for one, the fact that it is apparently in human nature to want to experience the material world.

A worm is also delighting in its experience of its "castle" as well

 

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

"As you can imagine, I could have a field day deconstructing the information of this page on the strength of vedic information"

Please do so.

"Ithink you mean epistemology - and since it innvolves making the senses very malleable and unreliable (which BTW is not advocated in the correct religious epistemology) the ontological conclusions are highly suspicious"

What do you call having "transcendent experiences"?

"Yes - because the accounts of seeing god (or rather, being god, which is the common "spiritual experience" of such foolishness) don't tally with previous accounts or scriptural evidence - much in the saem way that seeing atoms split etc also while under the influence also doesn't tally with the established scientific body of work"

How do you verify whether one experience of God is more apt than the other? Perhaps scriptural evidence is what is in error? That LSD is superior because it displays a true reality over the partial reality of scripture?

"Well if you lack knowledge in such situations a burgeoning sense of bravado could just as likely get you killed too - and even if you come out the hero time still kills you in the long run anyway unless you develop a type of knowledge that is uniquely available in the human form of life - the book was called Hitopadesa - kind of like a precurser to aesop's fables"

You admit that we ought to wash our hands, yet they get dirty. Do you not then agree it is better to live, even if you must die? Or should we simply kill ourselves now because "time kills us"?

"If all one is interested in in the name of exercise yoga is bodilyhealth it is not a bad option - even atheists do it too -lol -"

Yes. But were you thinking of anything else specifically?

"So he allows us to love him as if he were vulnerable? ”


Yes"

Why should we want to have this? THat sounds pretty wasteful and obnoxious!

"Unfortunately we are lower than hogs, dogs and camels in terms of intelligence though - in other words our material advancements are mostly used for fulfilling lower than animal propensities-as for living thrice as long - you don't arrive at that estimation if you include abortions into the average age."

Abortions have been practiced for thousands of years. Infanticide and herb-induced abortions are massively practiced amongst slews of primitive people. In fact, considering the relative lack of such killings of children outside of abortion, as well as the greater assurance that they will survive, I would put forth that we save more children now than ever, and indeed, live longer because of that.

And in what way are our propensities lower than animals?

"Then there is the absence of ice cream when one desires it or over eating ice cream - inother words all our material pleasures exist between two dualities that see us suffer because they all pertain to the body which is constantly threatened with weakness and non- existence"

Then simply take the middle path and avoid such extremes? And just take into consideration that without pain, there is no pleasure?

"I cannot conceive of a circumstance where serving the genitals and senses will benefit you - I mean we feel hungry and thirsty for a reason - i don't denythat - but how much of what we feel the "need" to do is actually necessary for our continued material existence (eating because we require nutrition etc) and how much is because of impulse? How many times do you suppose your average man has passed semen before the age of 25 solely for the purpose of procreation?"

Why should we be so guided by the "natural ends" to the purposes? Food tastes good. Drink tastes good. Sex feels good. Why should these things be "only for the base material foundations for their existence", as you seem to suggest?

We desire pleasure, we seek pleasure, we attain pleasure. What is the problem with this?

You say that God created us. Why then did he create these things pleasurable if we should not seek them?

"generally the way it works out that the winner gets the prize because she is more beautiful rather than the least ugliest (although maybe if they had a really low class line up they could theoretically discriminate on those grounds) - like they don't say "and the second least ugliest contestant is Miss Florida" or whatever"

I agree. She is considered to have a positive quality. But compared to the winner, she is indeed ugly.

"That is the inconceivable nature of a mothers causeless love - if you pooed your pants in public nobody else would be your friend what to speak of constant well wisher"

Depends on what I was giving them. Howard Hughes was nuts, but people still served him.

"Yes - but before you begin part of that goodness innvolves bestowing upon us free will, without which there is no question of pure love"

Well really, we -really- need to go back to free-will sometime...Butttt...

Okay, so assume he does give us free will. Evil is contrary to good, yes? And God assurely hates evil, that is, he is opposed to it?

"So because we have misused free will , ie decided to be seperate from god, we have the material world full of all its delights - in other words if you bite your own tongue, who else can you blame?"

A perfect entity cannot accept evil and remain good.

"The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness."

I would argue there is indeed a time for sense pleasure, too. Right now I am enjoying some pineapples and see no reason why this is an inferior pleasure.

"Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment."

Then devotional service cannot occur?

"BG 3.6: One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender."

Is he not on "the right trakc" according to your beliefs?

"well I propose that there are more intelligent ways to achieve and appreciate pleasure - this is sado masochism"

Oh? How?

"Well that brings us to the topic of transcendental pleasure, which is not subject to such dualistic definitions"

What is the nature of transcendental pleasure that it is so divorced from pain? And how can it be so?

"We conquer them? We are conquered by all of them.
This even contains the word ontology"

We are conquered by them? Why then do our technologies make a mockery out of Mother Earth? Reduce her to a pest to be dealt with barely at all? Why is sickness and age so easily diminished in our age?

"Well there are a few scientific snags there - the first one being a mechanistic reduction for consciousness ......"

Theoretically, we could even find ways to attach the soul to matter artifically, if such things exist to begin with.

"If it was the same thing as doing it indefinitely you would have no problems if it was required that you do it indefinitely - actually the problem is that in a jaundiced state of sickness even sweet things taste bitter"

So basically, the system sustains itself by making it impossible to do it for five minutes in any normal sense, despite promising that five minutes is enough?

So it is a scam?

"The holy name, character, pastimes and activities of Kṛṣṇa are all transcendentally sweet like sugar candy. Although the tongue of one afflicted by the jaundice of avidyā [ignorance] cannot taste anything sweet, it is wonderful that simply by carefully chanting these sweet names every day, a natural relish awakens within his tongue, and his disease is gradually destroyed at the root."

All habits change the character of man.

"No - then it is not suddha bhakti (pure unmotivated devotional service)"

Then I argue such is impossible. As benefit from any action is -impossible- to forego. Even doing such an action entails benefit from it, as one has put value on doing it.

"He can - but then it would be mundane cheese - all cheese comes from god since he is the source of all material and spiritual manifestations"

So God can only make "God Cheese, perfect for happiness" by making it obvious that it is from God?

"A worm is also delighting in its experience of its "castle" as well"

I see nothing wrong for a worm to delight in his natural pleasures.