M*W: I don't like this new software either. The folks we knew have changed their names. Are we having to start over? This new system sucks.
----------Lucysnow said:Medicine Woman
I know and the color is depressing. Only a tie should be this shad of grey. A member was hanging around this thread looking for you and then he pmd me wondering if I wasn't you with a new name (the cheek!). I told him you were around somewhere. I don't know I just miss the old software it was intuitive and I never had a problem with it. Plus this one is slow.
I am so sick of this new software! On occasion the quick reply disappears, wastes my goddamn time and I have to re-write my whole fucking response.
I am not sure I understand your point would you please elaborate. What do you mean by trying to reinvent the wheel etc?
I am not sure if we can always monitor our cultural prejudices. Even among progressives prejudice can be detected and it is usually by those who they are trying to help. Often being brought up in a white/middle-class environment sets us up to either pity or romanticize the poor or people of other countries. As Kundera points out "Pity connotes a certain condenscension towards the sufferer." When this happens the people we try and influence become resentful/affronted and reject 'help'.
Quote: Yes I would be very interested in knowing your opinion on abortion. I do not see this as irrelevant because it outlines how you examines the issue.
Do you assume that all participants share your moral point of view? If they do not then who will decide the outcome, is it concensus or referrendum?
When the issue concerns a sovereign nation that opposes the point of view or the members of said society ignore the new standard then how can members of the international community who is outside this state impose their point of view without forceful intervention?
Remember that with the example of prostitution there are many who oppose it even if it is not a forced choice. And the issue becomes even deeper when we look at circumstances where women choose the profession because of poverty. In Thailand there are many women who choose prostitution because they prefer not to break their backs make very little money in a rice field. The choices of a poor woman is not the same as a middle-class woman choosing the profession out of prediliction or preferrable means to pay through college.
[The anthropologist] advocates using her permission to provide early warnings. She writes " Because of our involvement in local societies, anthropologists could provide early warnings of abuses" I have no problem with her giving data to orgs or discussing the issue on an international scene but to whom would she provide early warnings?
Also she writes "anthropologists need to condemn such misuse of cultural relativism, even if it means that they may be denied permission to do research in the country in question". My question is how can it help if one risks being denied permission to do work in the country? How does it help if it will only cast doubt and suspicion and distrust on all western cultural anthropologists?
How do you provide the kind of education that predisposes someone against war when most of these nations cannot even provide a basic education?
How do you impress this kind of education on nations where leaders haven't this political will because they are more interested in holding power or it goes against their pragmatic beliefs?
Might is right? Well if it isn't someone needs to clue the Bush administration because that is the crux of their international foreign policy.
When I mentioned the woman from Gambia she was well aware of the arguments against fmg and also of the risks. But she sees the risks as affecting the lower classes who cannot afford a medical doctor to safely perform the procedure. In the middle and upper classes there are ample doctors from these cultures who are willing to perform the ritual safely (just like male circumcision) and use anesthesia so the experience isnt so traumatic.
I am glad you see this but colonialism is percieved in many different ways. If you research colonialism in the carribean islands, the English for example provided a strong British/western european education to the locals. If you read the scholars or thinkers like Marcus Garvey or nobel laureate Derek Walcott the discussion is about psychological/cultural colonialsim and imperialism (you should read The Gulf where walcott expresses feelings on european cultural orientation). Now what is that? Its the perception of other people that the west through the means of education is attempting to dilute or rid an indigenious way of thinking, perceiving and behaving.
Please, please, read this link. Our debate hinges on the perspective being offered:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/tharoor2.htm
I believe that ANY right is dependent on economic growth, any stable natural change within a culture depends on this and education isn't possible without it.
Then she also states something else I agree with: " human rights derive from the mere fact of being human; they are not the gift of a particular government or legal code. But the standards being proclaimed internationally can become reality only when applied by countries within their own legal systems. The challenge is to work towards the “indigenization” of human rights, and their assertion within each country's traditions and history. If different approaches are welcomed within the established framework—if, in other words, eclecticism can be encouraged as part of the consensus and not be seen as a threat to it—this flexibility can guarantee universality, enrich the intellectual and philosophical debate, and so complement, rather than undermine, the concept of worldwide human rights"
My problem with Tharoor's position is the same as I have with yours, she doesn't state how any international body can implement these supposed rights.
remember Clinton's visit to China and what Zemin had to say on the issue:
"Chinese president Jiang Zemin thus defended the government's authoritarian policies: "[t]he two countries differ in social system, ideology, historical tradition and cultural background, the two countries have different means and ways in realizing human rights and fundamental freedoms." Official statements [2] have declared that China has its own unique cultural values (such as obedience to authority, collectivism, family, and other dispositions), which are said to be opposed to human rights ideals that cherish individual freedom and tolerance." Quote from secular humanism.org
Okay. YOu say you are not advocating force, so I ask again how are you going to intervene on fundamental human rights without force?
Do you know why the west does not actively intervene on North Korea? Because the country has closed itself off to the west and because they have the military might to defend themselves against the west. Do you know why the dalai lama's pleas for intervention were turned down by the U.S because they would have to fight the Chinese and on these grounds and that was not an option. Why wasn't it an option? It would have been an unwinable war. Do you know why the U.S is so cocky concerning Taiwan? Because they were in a position to make an allegiance with Taiwan while China was distracted during the Korean war, they placed themselves in a position to defend Taiwan. If they had not done so then it would have been impossible and China would have re-absorbed Taiwan.
If legality flowed from morals then slavery would never have been legal and the death penalty alive and well and thiving in Texas.
Again I have told you that there are western educated middle-class women who defend fmg, so how can you now say that it is simply a matter of education, it is not. The woman from Gambia was not uneducated she just didn't agree.
It is my opinion that the U.N has proven itself ineffective. Many block nations have created alliance organizations addressing issues outside of the U.N.
But we don't act on ethics do we?
Many do not especially those in power. This civility you refer to, these ethics, have not done a good job of interferring with baser impulses. You speak of stopping immorally like a pulpit preacher but it doesn't stop the congregation from having extra marital affairs, domestic violence, racism or getting stupid drunk on a saturday night.
Ethics are only meaningful when implemented by the individual because the individual has made a CONSCIOUS decision based on what is in the interest of their happiness and long term goal of well being.
It is not anyones role to turn to the people. A population is quite aware if they are being oppressed or not and don't need anyone to point that out.
The future of groups, nations and individuals are in their hands and their hands alone.
Me: What justification does she give for the practice? What I am getting at is: does she have any logically defensible arguments for FGM?
You: She doesn't need to justify it. When a ritual has been kept for generations upon generations they feel no need to justify it to someone who is outside of their cultural matrix. Its considered an affront for a westener to demand a 'justification'.
Popular American culture and media machine should be resisted. I am in America and I don't even trust it.
I am speaking of a nation providing their citizens with basics (clean water and affordable food, health care, basic education; infrastructure). You know Cambodia is filled with NGO's and the like working on a variety of problems. The people are so poor that it isn't unusual to find children sleeping on the pavement at night, seven year olds selling newspapers and jasmine flowers to foreigners in bars at midnight while rubbing their eyes because they can't leave until everything is sold. They have no decent medical care; its not unusual to find ambulances not equipped with a stretcher, ekg machines that are broken in hospitals. Tap water is undrinkable. Its so poor that women sell their children to westeners on a continuous basis (pedophilia is a HUGE problem there). This is the kind of 'economic growth' I am referring to. Without money for the basics any other right is undefined and unclear.
When someone adheres to a set of beliefs it doesn't matter if anyone else finds these beliefs as valid or not.
Basically Zemin was telling the west to fuck off and mind its beeswax because he doesn't give a fart what they think of China's way of being or conducting themself internally.
If a nation is resisting change and we continue to put pressure then we must admit we are using force. If I say tell someone that I am asking them nicely but if they refuse i will then break their necks then aggression and force is already implied.
Anyway we do not have the resources (thank god) to interven change in countries that resist our ways of being or universal priniciples.
Those principles are bastadized for political ends and most countries outside the west know this. Its not a wonder that it isnt respected and seen as hypocritical and self-serving.
Me:The people who made those laws believed that those laws were morally justifiable.
You: So then morality is arbitrary.
She disagrees because every woman in her family including herself has undergone the practice and so she sees nothing wrong with it.
Implementing ethics on a daily basis is no easy feat for the average person. Just look at the evening news. My problem with Fromm's argument in Man for himself is that it implies everyone wants to consider their highest good in terms of a standardized ethical system and everyone doesn't. People are going to do what they want to do and that is usually what is easiest and most convenient. We're a lazy lot!
If the individual doesn't have any regard for a certain ethic then it is indeed meaningless.
What you want is for the west to 'affect' all others in a one way flow (which it is!) so that they are in line with you, your ideas, your perspective and beliefs.
What logical defense is there for body modification? Clit peircing, navel, tounge and titty peircing?
To whom is she beholden? To whom does she have to 'justify' herself.
But we don't learn from [Australians]. We don't receive any of your media, we receive very little information from or about Aussie land except from the actors and actresses you export. Influence is one way I'm afraid.
The same thing concerning Africa, we know little to nothing about Africa, historically or culturally but they know quite a bit about us. (I am speaking of what is the norm here; obviously there are americans who have a singular interest in other countries and travel, purchase foreign newspapers but they are not the norm)
Why don't you get this? We are not in control of their internal affairs these are sovereign nations we are not in a position to 'fix' anything!
Me: Opinions count.
You: No they don't! It counts with a vote but not outside. It counts if its law but in no other area. A homosexual doesn't give a shit of the opinions of a fundi christian and the fundi christian couldn't give a shit about the opinion of a homosexual. China throws its ass in the air when it disagrees with the west and the States does what it wants and other opinions be damned. You're a dreamer.
Yes he was, Zhemin was absolutely 100% justified. He's the primer, its his country. He has a right to his perspective and he need not justify it to anyone because he is not beholden to anyone. Only supplicants and children need justify themselves...get my point?
Give me an example of an incident where principles were not implemented because of political self-interest.
It will not be you who decides if something was a faux pas and you are not in control over how moral ideas develop outside your personal sphere of influence.
You have the same attitude of the missionary.
She was highly educated. Went further in Western education than I and attended a better western university than I.
But I see you still do not understand!!! Get this through if you can...I agree with you that fmg is ugly. But this DOES NOT MATTER!!
She does not need any reason outside tradition to continue the practise. It is in your mind that this is blind acceptance. She had a cousin also living in the West who chose not to circumcise her daughter, but that does not affect her choices which are her own. She doesn't give a shit what you or I or the u.n thinks or feels about it.
You need to leave australia and live among other people in THEIR nations for a while, under THEIR world view, under THEIR laws and within THEIR cultural matrix. It won't change your view on what constitutes fundamental human rights but it will broaden your view of other people and how they view you, the west, historical and cultural imperialism and colonialism. It will teach you where your life ends and theirs begin.
Ethics are only meaningful when embraced and acted upon by the individual. If I reject a principle then it is dead and has no meaning for me and does not govern my thinking and actions. When a person steals something then the laws against theft are ideed meaningless; not to you, not to the person victim of theft, not to the police but definitely to the thief.
But don't you see this is where the shift in perception takes place. If a mother has been circumcised and does not perceive the ritual as a violation of her rights but as a right of passage in her community (like jewish the brisk) then she will not feel any need to justify this to her daughter.
In other words the woman who has just finished going through an fmg ritual with her daughter doesn't give a hoot what your opinion is. The Christian who believes homosexuals are doomed to hell and are diseased doesn't give a hoot what the homosexual's opinion is of him. The homosexual does not care whether he is viewed as a degenerate.
Why would anyone care if they are condemned if they feel no responsibility?
Morality is an issue the moral not for the immoral.
YOu misunderstood my point. I was saying that Zhemin does not feel the need to justify because he doesn't see himself as a child or a supplicant.
Don't you see the fallacy of this argument? It doesn't matter whether she studied comparative religion (she isn't interested in other religions) or human rights law at university or moral philosophy (I will assume she hasn't but I don't know)!
If I asked a ten year old child living in the West whether they thought if it was good or bad to circumcise a female they would say 'Urgh! NO!" not because they are 'educated' but because it is outside of their cultural matrix. If I asked the someone in the West about male circumcision they would find nothing wrong with it. Don't you see its the cultural matrix itself that makes the difference not the education.
Education is FILTERED through our cultural matrix. Based on your argument only Human rights law students who have studied comparative religion and moral philosophy are capable of understanding anything or making a valid moral decision.
Because you don't seem to have a sense of where your life ends and anothers begins.
An ethical standard is not transgressed if it is not accepted, believed, lived, etc.
Its the guilt factor you see. If I don't think an act is wrong I will not feel any guilt no matter what anyone thinks or holds to be true.
In a society where fmg is the standard there is no transgression. The collective of that society would not consider it a transgression.
Dont you think when Fred [the thief] breaks into a home he doesn't know he may get blown away by the owner or captured by the police? He does. Fred doesn't care.
If I don't believe in God for example, do the ten commandments mean anything to me? Morals are a set of ideas or principles for a person to live by, they are guides. Now if I dismiss these principles then they are dead to me, they don't exist for me, I will never live by them. Morals only exist to those who have accepted them.
Guilt is not irrelevant concerning moral responsibility. I will only feel guilt if I have accepted a principle and failed to live up to it. Guilt informs us that we have not been true to something we accept as truth. If I do not accept a principle, it is is dead to me, then I will never feel guilty over an action pertaining to that principle.
It isn't wrong. One would have to believe that any particular principle is universal for it to be wrong. But life and history prove that there are people and nations that do not accept the principles you or I or another may abide by.
Morals are only a set of ideas James. The menu is not the meal remember? Just because I look at a menu doesn't mean I am going to digest its contents.
James I have absolutely no respect for anyone who accepts a premise just because it was made by someone else. Have you considered that the person may not find the information 'relevant' to them at all?
I don't know about you but I will never ever turn to another human being to set my interior life or principles which we live by. See James I have studied some those same things and I do not agree with you. So much for education setting standards. Life sets the standard, experience not those fucking books are you crazy or what? Only a weakling will accept something becaus so and so said so.
So? This only proves my point not yours. Lets look at it this way, male circumcision has become very normal in the States, even among non-jews, are you saying that doctors are ignorant and lacking in education for circumcising baby boys?
Me: With respect, it does matter. When I say she is uneducated, I mean she is uneducated in the very things which could help her make a correct moral choice.
You: She would say the same about you since you are not a Muslim and would dismiss you as a western dullard who has come to disuade her with his western trinkets and hypocritical moral nonsense. Do you know many other people see the west as a bunch of hypocrites and liars?
James, again, her moral philosophy is not yours. Why is it you insist that your conclusions belong to everyone when they don't? Now you may disagree with her but that is all you can do is disagree. She will walk away thinking you have missed the mark and so will you.
Me:What I care about is, first and foremost, that actions should be morally defensible on a logical basis, in light of all relevant factors.
You: You can only insure that for yourself though not for others.
Me: I say that people are bound by moral obligations whether or not they give a damn about them, because society gives a damn about them.
You: LOL. That is what the Gambian woman said concerning her sisters decision not to circumcise her daughter. Sweet! That's hysterical.
Obviously so take a look at Nazi Germany. For most morality is not absolute James it can change. And you know what? It changes specifically because it wasn't formed by the individual to begin with. This is why a country of educated and sophisticated people could be so easily swayed by a Hitler.
What makes you think humans are always logical anyway? Humans throw logic to the wind all the time.
Judge away. She doesn't care about how you judge her. So what that you judge her? Christian fundametalists judge me according to their standards do you think i care about it?
Me: The first question to ask here is not "how does she perceive fgm?", but "Is fgm morally justifiable?"
You: But James we have been through this her answer would be yes it is morally justifiable and in the best interest of her daughters future.
You assume that if she has the enough information she will change her mind and the answer to that is no, because she has a set belief that has existed longer than the books you turn to seeking guidance on morality and human rights.
Why don't you see that it is not education that will change all this but economics and the natural internal revolution of the mindset within the society; when fmg no longer serves a purpose they will cease to practise it.
Think of it another way by answering this question, why do orthodox jews continue to practise Kashrut (jewish dietary laws) where a utensiles, pots and pans used for milk will never be used for meat? Where one has two refrigerators and kitchen cabinets separating food products? Many of these people live in the west right. Well there is no longer a need to do all this. These laws and considerations had significance hundreds of years ago when milk and meat spoiled etc. But do they stop practising all this? No.
Shari'a:Christians were not allowed to build houses taller than their neighbours' houses. In public they had to carry visible tokens of to the religion to which they belonged. If there was a case at the court, Muslim statements were considered of more value than the ones form Christians.
Well then why don't you just say that everyone can wear whatever they like coz then everyone can just wear non-rape-attracting clothing and all will be well and good in the world. Or you could just have one less drink and hire a prostitute.Bells said:The reason a man rapes a woman is not because of the way she is dressed. That is just a pathetic reason by man to try to excuse his behaviour. Forcing these women to dress less 'loosely' won't curb the violence against them.
What are the rights and restrictions of Dhimmis in Moslem countries?
"The vile and ignorant dhimmis (non-Muslims in an Islamic country) must be humiliated, belittled and rendered abominable and able to be distinguished by their appearance." For example, "different colored shoes, one white the other black"; for males badges such as an "ape for a Jew and a pig for a Christian: for women yellow veils." The distinctive dress shows the Muslim that the dhimmi is to be treated as an inferior - not to stand up for her or shake his hand, not to give them Muslim charity. He is to expect respect and deference from the dhimmi who shall not join a group of Muslims or raise his voice in their presence. The non-Muslim is to stand aside if the pathway is narrow. It is haram (unlawful) for him to slaughter animals; reserved for him is the cleaning of lavatories and sewers, and carrying away rubbish and refuse. His house should be painted a dull color and be no larger than that of a Muslim neighbor.
- from various medieval Muslim documents, compiled in "The Dhimmi", by Bat Ye'or