Loyalty v. Righteousness

[FallingSkyward]

Fallingskyward:
Why do you hold that murder is a greater sin than disloyalty?

In this situation, I hold that murder is the greater evil because you would be causing extreme pain to an innocent child in order to follow through with an unethical pact you made. I do not believe that your personal blunder in making the pact is enough to warrant following through with a heinous task.

I concede that the ethics in the situation become more ambigious when you add more to the circumstance, such as if you had to kill a random child in order to save a larger number of innocent people and had no opportunity to avert the situation(such as contacting authorities). The best choice would probably be whatever causes the least amount of pain, but that kind of circumstance is incredibly unrealistic. The initial hypothetical is somewhat plausible - Charlie Manson's girls come to mind. But these people were unethical in the first place, as is anyone who would follow through with a pact like that without some extremely extenuating circumstances.

 

[Prince_James]

Why is it unethical to pledge fealty to a person to this extent?

 

[FallingSkyward]

Because the pledge itself is unethical. It is open to requests of a heinous nature.

 

[Prince_James]

So nothing that can lead one to a heinous action is to be considered proper to engage in? Not that -necessarily- leads, but simply might?

 

[Ragnarok]

Prince_James....
"So you would rape and murder the child because you have pledged yourself to that person?"

Yes, it's an obligation.

Then (in my Opinion) you are no longer a human, but a mindless pawn who deserves to die. That is MY obligation. I would choose death, rather than violate a child. At least i would die a moral man.

 

[FallingSkyward]

So nothing that can lead one to a heinous action is to be considered proper to engage in? Not that -necessarily- leads, but simply might?

Correct - unless, as I said before - there are extenuating circumstances that would force you to engage as a means of avoiding something even more heinous.

 

[Prince_James]

Ragnarok:

Actually, you'd die an immoral way either way. You broke a promise - a solemn oath, actually - so surely you'd be immoral in this regard?

FallingSkyward:

Okay. Thank you for your elaboration.

 

[invert_nexus]

Then I'd kill the little kid without a second thought.

The command was to rape and kill the child.
You forgot about the rape part.

I wonder though. Could you rape the child after killing it? Or must it still be alive?
Which would you prefer, Baron?

 

[Oniw17]

Then (in my Opinion) you are no longer a human, but a mindless pawn who deserves to die. That is MY obligation. I would choose death, rather than violate a child. At least i would die a moral man.

Then, in my opinion, you're a back-stabbing bigot who deserves to die a slow painful death. That's MY obligation...lol.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Our entire species answered this question about sixty years ago. By universal convention there is no greater loyalty than that pledged by a soldier to his commander. Yet a soldier is expected to disobey an order to perform a sufficiently immoral act.

You can solve this with a reductio ad absurdum. Suppose your beloved pal asks you to throw the switch on the weapon he just created that will exterminate all life on Earth. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say there is some weird kind of moral imperative that obligates you to do it?

Yeah sure.

 

[invert_nexus]

Ever watch Stanley Milgram's Obedience to Authority experiments? I've got a copy around here somewhere I think. Good stuff. I'd like to get my hands on the actual paper one of these days (or was it a book?)

Suppose your bosom pal asks you to throw the switch on the weapon he just created that will exterminate all life on Earth. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say there is some weird kind of moral imperative that obligates you to do it?

Stop.
Reverse that.
He asks you not to push it.

Isn't this like God telling Adam and Eve to not eat that apple?
We all know the outcome of that one...

 

[Oniw17]

Suppose your bosom pal asks you to throw the switch on the weapon he just created that will exterminate all life on Earth. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say there is some weird kind of moral imperative that obligates you to do it?

Yeah sure.

That includes yourself and all of the other people you're loyal to, how is it the same situation?

 

[Prince_James]

Fraggle Rocker:

Our entire species did not answer it. People at Nuremberg did. Nuremberg was the Allied powers flexing their muscles after the victory. It was hardly representative of the greater humanity (considering there were principally only four nations fighting in WWII on the Allied side).

 

[Ragnarok]

Ragnarok:

Actually, you'd die an immoral way either way. You broke a promise - a solemn oath, actually - so surely you'd be immoral in this regard?

FallingSkyward:

Okay. Thank you for your elaboration.

I guess id be caught either way, but in my mind i would have made the right choice. I wouldnt have made a solemn oath to a person if id known they were capable of this type of atrocity. Catch 22 , if you will.

 

[Ragnarok]

Then, in my opinion, you're a back-stabbing bigot who deserves to die a slow painful death. That's MY obligation...lol.

Then let it be. At least i wouldnt be raping and killing children. you sick little man

 

[Prince_James]

Ragnarok:

So you'd only make an oath with certainy of the morality of the person in question?

 

[Ragnarok]

Ragnarok:

So you'd only make an oath with certainy of the morality of the person in question?

Well, it would be a serious contributing factor, thats for sure. But really, i wouldnt swear an oath that would put me in such a precarious situation, to have to choose between fealty and morality.

 

[Baron Max]

I was under that impression that presupposed that we DID take that oath of fealty? Everything after that is part of the question, isn't it? Or did I read the original post all wrong?

Baron Max

 

[Ragnarok]

I was under that impression that presupposed that we DID take that oath of fealty? Everything after that is part of the question, isn't it? Or did I read the original post all wrong?

Baron Max

No, you read it correctly, i just find it hard to imagine that such a request would be made, and why the one who is sworn too would make such a request. To prove allegiance and fealty possibly? I was just looking for a way around the predicament.

 

[Baron Max]

To prove allegiance and fealty possibly? I was just looking for a way around the predicament.

Well, the supposition didn't leave us room for "negotiations" ....you pick one or the other. Either killed the little kid to maintian your promise, or you're killed for refusing to obey. Simple ....ain't no room for negotiations.

If your internal ethics is so strong, then you chose your own death over that of the little kid. If your word is strong, then you killed the little kid and continue with your life of fealty.

Baron Max