Yes, the Hesperides were Atlas' daughters, so Atlas, Atlantica, Attalan, Avalon, thanks.
Lost Kingdoms of Cantre'r Gwaelod/Lyonesse/Avalon
- Thread starter IceAgeCivilizations
- Start date
Sorry, IceAgeCivilizations, I had meant the island they inhabited.
Avalon was not a person. Not a God, Goddess, demi-God, Titan, Giant, or any other thing.
Avalon was an island in the West. This is a common Indo-European belief. There is no mention of it being sunk.
Avalon was not a person. Not a God, Goddess, demi-God, Titan, Giant, or any other thing.
Avalon was an island in the West. This is a common Indo-European belief. There is no mention of it being sunk.
Also, Avalon has no linguistic connection with Atlantic. Avalon = Isle of Apples. Atlantic = Ocean.
Atalan - Avalon
Apples - Avalon
And which do you say is closer etymologically?
Apples - Avalon
And which do you say is closer etymologically?
Apples.
Because the Welsh for apple (remember: Arthur = Celt. Welsh = Celtic.) is afal, and f = representation for "v". Thus "aval".
Atlantic has no etymological connection that links it to aval. The only similarity is that both words have two a's in them. They share nothing else, neither sound or otherwise.
Breton retains aval = apple, also.
Because the Welsh for apple (remember: Arthur = Celt. Welsh = Celtic.) is afal, and f = representation for "v". Thus "aval".
Atlantic has no etymological connection that links it to aval. The only similarity is that both words have two a's in them. They share nothing else, neither sound or otherwise.
Breton retains aval = apple, also.
The now submerged lands of Lyonesse and Cantre'r Gwaelod off Cornwall and Scilly corroborate the legend that Avalon was consumed by the sea.
No they don't. Because you have not established that these islands = Avalon.
Moreover, Avalon is held to exist -in historical times-. Arthur was taken there by four queens of Britain upon his death. Arthur is considered a historical figure. You claim those islands were submerged in the ice age.
Show us that your islands = Avalon and we might discuss Avalon as being submerged.
Moreover, Avalon is held to exist -in historical times-. Arthur was taken there by four queens of Britain upon his death. Arthur is considered a historical figure. You claim those islands were submerged in the ice age.
Show us that your islands = Avalon and we might discuss Avalon as being submerged.
Indeed, show us the evidence of a celtic civilization at the end of the last glacial maximum around 18,000 years ago (or, if your claim is that this isn't when the last glacial maximum occurred, please show the data that is contrary to the literal mountains of data that exists to say otherwise).
This is interesting, and while you know I don't agree with your theory, I do accept the possibility of submerged settlements less than a few thousand years old. Many areas which were heavily glaciated at the peak of the last glaciation are still experiencing isostatic readjustment due to the relatively rapid unloading. But not only areas which were glaciated are affected: some regions subside as the others are uplifted, causing a relative sea level rise. I seem to recall that southern Britain is one such region, which is sinking, while the north 'bounces back'.
There is a generalized map of the uplift and subsidence in this document:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/water/marine/uk/stateofsea/chartprogress-2.pdf
It's quite a big pdf, but if you search for 'figure 6.3', you'll go right to it. Although vertical movement in Britain is presently less than 2 mm per year, it has been higher in the past.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/water/marine/uk/stateofsea/chartprogress-2.pdf
It's quite a big pdf, but if you search for 'figure 6.3', you'll go right to it. Although vertical movement in Britain is presently less than 2 mm per year, it has been higher in the past.
Hey stryder, now that it's framed in terms of "vertical movement," can we move it back to the history section, since Laika is a "real" scientist?
No, because it is still pseudoscience.
You have proven nothing in regards to your thesis.
Please - present it.
We're all waiting, me especially, as I love Arthurian stuff.
You have proven nothing in regards to your thesis.
Please - present it.
We're all waiting, me especially, as I love Arthurian stuff.
I think the real Arthur was added to the ancient legends about Lyonesse and Cantre'r Gwaelod, as well as Ys, which went under about 2,000 years before Arthur lived.
There is no evidence of a drastic sea level rise during the time of Arthur, circa 500 A.D.
There is no evidence of a drastic sea level rise during the time of Arthur, circa 500 A.D.
IceAgeCivilizations:
Then why call these things "Avalon"? As Avalon is related to the Arthurian version.
Similarly, do these islands have any signs of human habitation or anything else?
Then why call these things "Avalon"? As Avalon is related to the Arthurian version.
Similarly, do these islands have any signs of human habitation or anything else?
Geometric patterns (contiguous diamond forms) in the sea bottom have been noted by aerial photography of Cornwall, and ruins are reportedly submerged at Ys, and I believe ruins have been reported in Cardigan Bay.
Lost Cities of the Mediterranean by Childress (who cites many other submergies) talks about Ys, and I think the geometric patterns submerged off Cornwall can be googled. I forget where I read about Cardigan Bay.
Changed my opinion on this. I'm pretty much convinced the real "Arthur" spoken of by Geoffrey and Nennius(Yes I think the same person) was surely REALLY "ARTHUR" King of the Britons after a storied career as Dux Bellorum.
He built a 5th-6th century style CITADEL Fortess at Cadbury Castle, Somerset. John Leland(Historian) in 1542 placed Camallate or Camalat at this site. Digs in 1966-70 by Leslie Alcock confirm:
"Following the withdrawal of the Roman administration, the site is thought to have been in use from c. 470 until some time after 580. Alcock revealed a substantial 'Great Hall' (20 x 10 metres) and showed that the innermost Iron Age defences had been refortified providing a defended site double the size of any other known fort of the period. Sherds of pottery from the eastern Mediterranean were also found from this period indicating wide trade links.[2][3] It therefore seems probably that it was the chief caer (castle or palace) of a major Brythonic ruler and home to his royal family, his teulu (band of faithful followers), servants and horses."
This Hill is situated near the rivers "Queen Camel" and "West Camel" rivers. Well gee sherlocks, how much circumstance do we need before we are willing to make the logical conclusion? For me it is enough.
Also found at that site(at the base of the hill) was a grave with a boat and indications of the buriel place of "Arthur and Guenhwyfar". It seemed to indicate you needed a boat to get to the grave. It's orientation(the boat) was pointed in line with Glastonbury Tor.
The Site of "Avalon" at least in connection with this Arthur is likely the summit of Glastonbury Tor. It is surrounded by a FLOOD plain. In 500-600AD the hill could well have been an island in a shallow lake. Found in the cemetary in 1191 was the grave of a very tall man and a woman with a cross bearing the inscription : "Hic jacet sepultus inclitus rex Arthurus in insula Avalonia ("Here lies interred the famous King Arthur on the Isle of Avalon")".
He is not Aurelius Ambrosius or Riothamus or any other personage whom has actually survived in other histories.
Furthermore there is some veins of truth to sword and the stone legends AND sword from a lake legends. Bronze swords were pulled from STONE encasements during final part of the forging process. Celts often tossed swords(even prized heirlooms) in lakes, after the death(if particularly heroic) of the owner. Witches/"Druids(merlin)" often kept track of stuff no one else did, possibly the caretaker of such sword could be a "lady".
So in conclusion, though I know i'm reaching with the sword stuff, there is a lot of fact rather than fiction surrounding this, it is not as much a myth as some stuffy shirts would have you believe.
He built a 5th-6th century style CITADEL Fortess at Cadbury Castle, Somerset. John Leland(Historian) in 1542 placed Camallate or Camalat at this site. Digs in 1966-70 by Leslie Alcock confirm:
"Following the withdrawal of the Roman administration, the site is thought to have been in use from c. 470 until some time after 580. Alcock revealed a substantial 'Great Hall' (20 x 10 metres) and showed that the innermost Iron Age defences had been refortified providing a defended site double the size of any other known fort of the period. Sherds of pottery from the eastern Mediterranean were also found from this period indicating wide trade links.[2][3] It therefore seems probably that it was the chief caer (castle or palace) of a major Brythonic ruler and home to his royal family, his teulu (band of faithful followers), servants and horses."
This Hill is situated near the rivers "Queen Camel" and "West Camel" rivers. Well gee sherlocks, how much circumstance do we need before we are willing to make the logical conclusion? For me it is enough.
Also found at that site(at the base of the hill) was a grave with a boat and indications of the buriel place of "Arthur and Guenhwyfar". It seemed to indicate you needed a boat to get to the grave. It's orientation(the boat) was pointed in line with Glastonbury Tor.
The Site of "Avalon" at least in connection with this Arthur is likely the summit of Glastonbury Tor. It is surrounded by a FLOOD plain. In 500-600AD the hill could well have been an island in a shallow lake. Found in the cemetary in 1191 was the grave of a very tall man and a woman with a cross bearing the inscription : "Hic jacet sepultus inclitus rex Arthurus in insula Avalonia ("Here lies interred the famous King Arthur on the Isle of Avalon")".
He is not Aurelius Ambrosius or Riothamus or any other personage whom has actually survived in other histories.
Furthermore there is some veins of truth to sword and the stone legends AND sword from a lake legends. Bronze swords were pulled from STONE encasements during final part of the forging process. Celts often tossed swords(even prized heirlooms) in lakes, after the death(if particularly heroic) of the owner. Witches/"Druids(merlin)" often kept track of stuff no one else did, possibly the caretaker of such sword could be a "lady".
So in conclusion, though I know i'm reaching with the sword stuff, there is a lot of fact rather than fiction surrounding this, it is not as much a myth as some stuffy shirts would have you believe.