Logical Consistency of SR

Jack_

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Can anyone here prove the logical consistency of SR?

That way cranks can come here and see the proof.



Oh, SR is an a priori theory and not a posteriori . Thus, scientific experiments are not sufficient.

One needs to prove a model according to Godel's extended completeness theorem.

Thanks in advance.
 
Changing tactic I see. If you honestly believed you'd disproven SR by demonstrating Lorentz transformations are inconsistent then this thread would not be required, as you already 'know' the reason why SR is not consistent. Either you're asking the question because you don't believe what you claim or because you simply want to spew out the same tired rhetoric which has already been addressed.

You've previously demonstrated you want people to think you know about logic and the work of people like Godel but given you don't even user the word 'proof' properly its obvious you don't understand mathematical logic. You've previously floundered on even grasping basic Lorentz transformations and how they map light spheres to light spheres so even if someone were willing t hold your hand through mathematical logic its obviously beyond your grasp.

So, are you posting this because you admit your previous claims have been demonstrated to be flawed or are you posting this as simply an excuse to throw about 'transfinite' and 'decidable' buzzwords?
 
I don't think it applies to geometry but I'm unsure when it comes to things like Lie groups.

I've previously explained to Jack that via various simple (well, simple compared to some things in mathematics) steps you can go from the geometry and mathematical structure of SR to the geometry and mathematical structure of Euclidean space. If SR is inconsistent then so is Newtonian mechanics and basic Euclidean geometry. Given most SR nay sayers think there's something much nicer and more valid about Euclidean geometry than Minkowski geometry this generally sticks a fork in their argument. Assuming they understand it, which they often don't. Jack is an example of someone who didn't.
 
Can anyone here prove the logical consistency of SR?

Sure. All of SR follows from two postulates (as formulated by Einstein), or even just the one about the laws of physics being the same in all inertial frames of reference (since those laws include Maxwell's equations, which predict the constancy of the speed of light).

Since everything follows from a single postulate, there's no possible room for logical inconsistency. A single postulate can't be logically inconsistent with itself.

So, that was easy. Next!
 
The following post has nothing to do with Jack, James has said something slightly unrelated but interesting. Hopefully it'll mean something worthwhile comes from a thread Jack has started.

Sure. All of SR follows from two postulates (as formulated by Einstein), or even just the one about the laws of physics being the same in all inertial frames of reference (since those laws include Maxwell's equations, which predict the constancy of the speed of light).
I think you need to be careful here. The second postulate doesn't follow from the first alone, so if you want only SR and nothing might you might regard as related to it like Maxwell's equations. If you stipulate gauge theory in 3+1 dimensional space-times are consistent then you get Maxwell's equations and then you can infer the notion of Lorentz transformations, but this still doesn't allow you to drop the second postulate of SR as the implications aren't quite the same. Maxwell's equations are very nicely formulated in terms of space-time symmetries but you can't infer them.

Its arguable quite what you're assuming in such cases. You're obviously assuming a lot of mathematical work so you need to be clear in how you separate what is a physical assumption and what is mathematical.

Given some very very basic notions/postulations about physical symmetries you can infer the concepts of pretty much any area of physics. Space-time curvature and gauge fields can be formulated in exactly the same way and much research is based on little more than "I want my physics to have the following symmetry...."

Since everything follows from a single postulate, there's no possible room for logical inconsistency. A single postulate can't be logically inconsistent with itself..
Again, we need to be careful here. Given most people don't do any kind of logic theory (and I'm pretty much one of them but I know a few basic things via osmosis from other people who did) they regard a vast amount of logic to be 'taken as given'. The simplest example is the axiom of identity, p => p (to be said as 'p implies p'). Put in clearer language, a statement implies itself. Somewhat seemingly circular a statement implies that which is states. Yes it might seem to any non-mathematician as "That's fucking obvious!" but, contrary to the impression Jack has, mathematicians take great care in being very very careful and very very thorough. This lead to logic studying friends to end up chanting, when doing homework, things like "p implies p implies p implies p", aka (p => p) => (p => p). p=>p is a statement and it implies itself, hence (p => p) => (p => p). Iteratively nest this till insane.

Anyway, back to my point. A statement and all its implications are only consistent if the statement is consistent else you suffer from explosions. So can we think of a statement which is not consistent with itself. Yes, we can take p to be the good old 'This statement is false'. If p=>p then it implies ¬p ('not p'). So p => ¬p. Explosions abound. Conversely we can construct a self consistent closed axiomatic system via taking p as 'This statement is true'. Which it is, since it is, since it is, since it is,..... Repeat till insane.

Now you see why I'm not too fussed about not having done much logic!
 
Changing tactic I see. If you honestly believed you'd disproven SR by demonstrating Lorentz transformations are inconsistent then this thread would not be required, as you already 'know' the reason why SR is not consistent. Either you're asking the question because you don't believe what you claim or because you simply want to spew out the same tired rhetoric which has already been addressed.

You've previously demonstrated you want people to think you know about logic and the work of people like Godel but given you don't even user the word 'proof' properly its obvious you don't understand mathematical logic. You've previously floundered on even grasping basic Lorentz transformations and how they map light spheres to light spheres so even if someone were willing t hold your hand through mathematical logic its obviously beyond your grasp.

So, are you posting this because you admit your previous claims have been demonstrated to be flawed or are you posting this as simply an excuse to throw about 'transfinite' and 'decidable' buzzwords?

Nope, I am not using buzzwords.

I do not need you to hold my hand.

I am looking for a consistency proof.
 
Sure. All of SR follows from two postulates (as formulated by Einstein), or even just the one about the laws of physics being the same in all inertial frames of reference (since those laws include Maxwell's equations, which predict the constancy of the speed of light).

Since everything follows from a single postulate, there's no possible room for logical inconsistency. A single postulate can't be logically inconsistent with itself.

So, that was easy. Next!

Nope.

Assume Ritz's theory of light. Then each frame measures c for light and the relativity postulate is satisified.

But, in this model, the SR light postulate is false.

Hence, they are independent.

Einstein: "I certainly knew that the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is something quite independent of the relativity postulate;"

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001743/01/Norton.doc
 
“ Originally Posted by Jack_
If you attempt to refute my logic, I will embarrass you in front of everyone which is why noone here will attempt to do it to me here. ”

Pete:
Willful dishonesty will get you banned. Again.

“ That is science and everyone would conclude Jack_ is an ass ”

Jack, out of all the forums you've spammed, out of all the people you've engaged in discussion, who has not concluded you are a dishonest and deluded ass?
Are you still relying on your imaginary friends?
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2555391&postcount=51

You know, you have the chance here to prove you follow a theory like SR because you can prove its logical consistency.

I mean, who would submit to and follow a theory they cannot prove is logically consistent?



Also, name calling does not refute math.
 
Nope, I am not using buzzwords.
Given I don't believe you know enough mathematics to have a firm grasp of Godel's work I consider your mention of it to be an attempt to use a buzzword to seem informed.

I do not need you to hold my hand.
No, you really do. The problem is that its a waste of time, you're a mixture of unwilling and unable to understand and learn any of this stuff.

I am looking for a consistency proof.
This demonstrates what I just said about your knowledge of Godel's work as you again misuse 'proof'. You claim you are absolutely certain SR is flawed, due to issues with Lorentz transformations. Thus you believe you have proof its inconsistent. If you believe this then you believe no one can provide you with proof SR is consistent because its impossible to have a proof something is true and another proof it is also false and remain consistent. One of them is not proof but a flawed argument. So either you don't believe what you say about SR or you just want another thread to whine in, having been smacked down and retorted in every other one you've started. Your tactic of starting a new thread every time the previous one gets so saturated with people demonstrating you to be wrong and/or ignorant doesn't work, people actually remember you've already been provided with retorts to your claims.

Uh, sorry, I do know exactly what I said.

Since you understand the terms so well, provide the consistency proof.
Good non-sequitor. So much for your grasp of logic.

If you have a 'proof' SR is inconsistent submit it to a journal. Its clear you're not going to convince anyone here who has studied relativity and given you present no new arguments you're wasting your time here. And if you have time to waste then submit it to a journal. You have no excuse if you honestly believe what you say.
 
Given I don't believe you know enough mathematics to have a firm grasp of Godel's work I consider your mention of it to be an attempt to use a buzzword to seem informed.

No, you really do. The problem is that its a waste of time, you're a mixture of unwilling and unable to understand and learn any of this stuff.

This demonstrates what I just said about your knowledge of Godel's work as you again misuse 'proof'. You claim you are absolutely certain SR is flawed, due to issues with Lorentz transformations. Thus you believe you have proof its inconsistent. If you believe this then you believe no one can provide you with proof SR is consistent because its impossible to have a proof something is true and another proof it is also false and remain consistent. One of them is not proof but a flawed argument. So either you don't believe what you say about SR or you just want another thread to whine in, having been smacked down and retorted in every other one you've started. Your tactic of starting a new thread every time the previous one gets so saturated with people demonstrating you to be wrong and/or ignorant doesn't work, people actually remember you've already been provided with retorts to your claims.

Good non-sequitor. So much for your grasp of logic.

If you have a 'proof' SR is inconsistent submit it to a journal. Its clear you're not going to convince anyone here who has studied relativity and given you present no new arguments you're wasting your time here. And if you have time to waste then submit it to a journal. You have no excuse if you honestly believe what you say.

Yes, I am just about done. You have not seen what I am really doing.

Either way, the point is moot, no?

You certainly would not follow a theory you could not prove is logically consistent.

Who would do that?

I mean come on, there are only two postulates.
 
Given I don't believe you know enough mathematics to have a firm grasp of Godel's work I consider your mention of it to be an attempt to use a buzzword to seem informed.

No, you really do. The problem is that its a waste of time, you're a mixture of unwilling and unable to understand and learn any of this stuff.

This demonstrates what I just said about your knowledge of Godel's work as you again misuse 'proof'. You claim you are absolutely certain SR is flawed, due to issues with Lorentz transformations. Thus you believe you have proof its inconsistent. If you believe this then you believe no one can provide you with proof SR is consistent because its impossible to have a proof something is true and another proof it is also false and remain consistent. One of them is not proof but a flawed argument. So either you don't believe what you say about SR or you just want another thread to whine in, having been smacked down and retorted in every other one you've started. Your tactic of starting a new thread every time the previous one gets so saturated with people demonstrating you to be wrong and/or ignorant doesn't work, people actually remember you've already been provided with retorts to your claims.

Good non-sequitor. So much for your grasp of logic.

If you have a 'proof' SR is inconsistent submit it to a journal. Its clear you're not going to convince anyone here who has studied relativity and given you present no new arguments you're wasting your time here. And if you have time to waste then submit it to a journal. You have no excuse if you honestly believe what you say.

Uh, did you refute the twins argument? No.

What have you refuted of my math? Nothing.

This is just chatter.

Now, if you have a consistency proof, that would be absolute evidence I am wrong.

Certainly, there must exist said valid proof.

I mean, why would a large herd of humans follow a physical theory that has not been proven logically consistent?
 
Uh, sorry, I do know exactly what I said.

Since you understand the terms so well, provide the consistency proof.
Tell you what: If you can make a formal statement of the theorem, I'll take a crack at it.
 
Tell you what: If you can make a formal statement of the theorem, I'll take a crack at it.

Let's see, you want me to make a formal statement of "the theorem"?

We are talking about the consistency of the postulates of SR.

Do not forget, all of your logic against me has been based on your assumption of the logical consistency of SR.

I am assuming you can prove your assertions.

Is this not true?
 
A statement and all its implications are only consistent if the statement is consistent else you suffer from explosions. So can we think of a statement which is not consistent with itself. Yes, we can take p to be the good old 'This statement is false'. If p=>p then it implies ¬p ('not p'). So p => ¬p. Explosions abound.

xkcd
I'm avoiding study. Webcomics and Sciforums are my preferred tools of procrastination.
 
Let's see, you want me to make a formal statement of "the theorem"?
Yes. Obviously. In logic, consistency is a formal statement about a proof calculus. Are you telling me that you didn't know this?

Formulate what consistency means.
Do not forget, all of your logic against me has been based on your assumption of the logical consistency of SR.
Absurd. You've been shown incompetent with the very based methods of everything involved in SR reasoning, including an embarrassingly poor grasp of basic linear algebra. The fact that such attacks are doomed to fail is merely icing on the cake.
 
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