Light

How big is a photon particle ?
What dimensions does it have?
hmmmmm.....

I've seen one I tell you. It was 2.5 billionths of a millionth of a second long.
It was in colour, purple top and bottom, yellow in the middle, about twice as long as it was high, about a dozen "lines" fitting into a wave shape.

The photo featured on Newscientist dot etc etc but I can't say more. :shrug:
 
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This is a dangerous analogy. It is good, but you should be cautious about thinking of things this way.
Thanks. Analogies like this are never perfect, but they seem to be the only way to tackle the "billiard-ball" concept that people have about particles like the photon, despite the obvious evidence of long-wave radio.

For example, if the water were massless, would the wave still knock you over? Does the vacuum, from which the photon is excited, have "mass''?
The vacuum doesn't have mass in the sense of inertial mass. You can't push against it and feel resistance to acceleration. You can't feel anything, it certainly isn't like water. And yet, the vacuum does have its vacuum energy. Demarcate a cube of "empty" space and call it a system that's at rest with respect to you. This system contains energy, and thus it has a mass-equivalence. I didn't like it when I first heard it, but I can't fault it because virtual photons are virtual.
 
Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
How big is a photon particle?
What dimensions does it have?
Hummmmm.....
In modern day physics, photons are called 'point particles' and so your question of how "big" a photon is would be irrelevent seeing as all points are one dimensional. This means that all photons (regarless of energy) are the same "size". In a classical sense, you would be safe to assume that a photon can only be as "large" as its respective three dimensional wavelength. I should also add that, in a classical sense, the propagation of a photon happens in four dimensions.
 
Thanks. Analogies like this are never perfect, but they seem to be the only way to tackle the "billiard-ball" concept that people have about particles like the photon, despite the obvious evidence of long-wave radio.
Whose this 'they'? Everyone (including lay persons)? The science community? Your perception of the science community?

The photon has both particle and wave properties but there's no reason to think it must be one and only one of those. A photon is certainly localised into a small region of space, even to a single point, and yet has wave-like properties like diffraction. The diffraction property is not dependent upon its length,. If memory serves you think it does, that a radio wave of wavelength into the km's is has a length of that scale, which isn't true.

The vacuum doesn't have mass in the sense of inertial mass. You can't push against it and feel resistance to acceleration.
Undergoing acceleration in a vacuum will cause you to have resistance due to Unruh radiation, you'll see the direction you've moving in gain a positive temperature as you're hit by more particles in front of you than behind you. This is only when you're accelerating, as its not relative like velocity is.

And yet, the vacuum does have its vacuum energy.
The fields within space have vacuum energies, not the space-time itself (ignoring quantised gravity processes or GR related cosmological constants), the vacuum energy is obtained from the energy of all ground state harmonic oscillators in the quantised field.

Demarcate a cube of "empty" space and call it a system that's at rest with respect to you. This system contains energy, and thus it has a mass-equivalence. I didn't like it when I first heard it, but I can't fault it because virtual photons are virtual.
The relative velocity you deem yourself to have relative to some frame in a vacuum is immaterial, the vacuum is Lorentz invariant.
 
Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
Is it correct to say that according to current thought, 2 dimensional objects can not exist in 4 dimensional space? If so how can a 1 dimensional object exist in 4 dimensional space?
I'm pretty sure you've seen the x,y,z symbol. It consists of the endpoints of two lines joining at an intersection, each line being ninety degrees from the other. Then we add a third line whose endpoint matches-up with the other two. This line protrudes out at a fourty-five degree angle (x,y,z labeled respectively for top, side and frount views). If you "zoomed-in" on the intersection of these three lines. That point will always stay the same "size". This is a one-dimensional object. Now, each line represents a two-dimensional space (I think there's another thread open about 2D space) and it takes three lines to represnt a three-dimensional object. Once we established a unit system, we can all agree on the same scale for any particular object (how "zoomed-in" we are).
 
I'm pretty sure you've seen the x,y,z symbol. It consists of the endpoints of two lines joining at an intersection, each line being ninety degrees from the other. Then we add a third line whose endpoint matches-up with the other two. This line protrudes out at a fourty-five degree angle (x,y,z labeled respectively for top, side and frount views). If you "zoomed-in" on the intersection of these three lines. That point will always stay the same "size". This is a one-dimensional object. Now, each line represents a two-dimensional space (I think there's another thread open about 2D space) and it takes three lines to represnt a three-dimensional object. Once we established a unit system, we can all agree on the same scale for any particular object (how "zoomed-in" we are).
Even though I deleted my post as I didn't want to interupt this thread too much I thank you for your response.
 
Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
Even though I deleted my post as I didn't want to interupt this thread too much I thank you for your response.
I didn't think the answer to your question was off topic. All photons follow some form of coordinate system but, if you're going to take what I said literally (which you shouldn't because it's an abstract analogy) then I should clarify something. Each line represents a direction of motion, not a two-dimensional space. It takes two lines to make a two-dimensional space. This analogy also illustrates how the fourth-dimension of time intersects with the three spatial dimensions of space. By "zooming-in" on the intersection of the x,y,z lines (it's called the 'origin' and most every coordinate system has one) we are looking at the fourth-dimension of time. The oddest part about this direction of motion is that it's always hidden. No matter how you orientate the other three lines we will always see the fourth-dimension as a point. In other words, its "line of motion" is always aimed directly at you (it points off the paper) and so, we can only view it as a single point (one-dimensional). We're able to plot a three-dimensional object along this hidden line (in a series) and watch as it changes with time.
 
These two posts are interesting:
1] by Acitnoids
I didn't think the answer to your question was off topic. All photons follow some form of coordinate system but, if you're going to take what I said literally (which you shouldn't because it's an abstract analogy) then I should clarify something. Each line represents a direction of motion, not a two-dimensional space. It takes two lines to make a two-dimensional space. This analogy also illustrates how the fourth-dimension of time intersects with the three spatial dimensions of space. By "zooming-in" on the intersection of the x,y,z lines (it's called the 'origin' and most every coordinate system has one) we are looking at the fourth-dimension of time. The oddest part about this direction of motion is that it's always hidden. No matter how you orientate the other three lines we will always see the fourth-dimension as a point. In other words, its "line of motion" is always aimed directly at you (it points off the paper) and so, we can only view it as a single point (one-dimensional). We're able to plot a three-dimensional object along this hidden line (in a series) and watch as it changes with time.
and
2] by JamesR
You can think of it as being roughly the size of its wavelength, if you like.

Now if I am not mistaken a wave length is something that takes time to occur. To consider a photon particle size as it's wave length would be to grant the photon a temporal value and that would make no sense at all.

So being the size of it's wave length can't be right can it?

Would that be a fair assessment?
 
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photon moves in space only not in time
gravitational red shift change frequency of light, velocity is invariant
 
Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
Now if I am not mistaken a wave length is something that takes time to occur. To consider a photon particle size as it's wave length would be to grant the photon a temporal value and that would make no sense at all. So being the size of its wave length can't be right can it? Would that be a fair assessment?
A photon is a single snapshot of a specific moment in time which is transmitted through space in all directions over a given amount of time. When a ray of light is broken down into its respective constituents (wavelength, frequency - energy) we are able to glean important information about that photon's origin. In no way can we declare a photon to be either a wave or a particle because, in fact, it is both. Now, for simple abstract visualization purposes, you can envision a photon as being either a standing wave (propagation aside) or a point of energy/angular momentum and, for all intensive purposes, both of these images would be correct.
 
And it turns out that anything that has zero mass always travels at the speed of light, all the time. So, it's actually impossible to have a photon that is not moving, or moving slower than the speed of light.

Basically anything without rest mass, also lack rest time, that is why all its time is vt/c = distance/lightspeed (which must be a time) in the movement direction, and this sums up to t becase it's speed v is c.


That is why the photons oscillate, since it has time to do it, lengthwise, not timewise.
 
The photon has both particle and wave properties but there's no reason to think it must be one and only one of those. A photon is certainly localised into a small region of space, even to a single point...
No, it isn't a point-particle. That's a myth that creates untold confusion. Long wave radio waves are not made up of a blizzard of point particles, and nor is visible light or any other electromagnetic radiation.

...and yet has wave-like properties like diffraction. The diffraction property is not dependent upon its length. If memory serves you think it does...
Not me. Refraction depends on wavelength.

images


Undergoing acceleration in a vacuum will cause you to have resistance due to Unruh radiation...
No problem with that. But you can't accelerate a region of vacuum like you can accelerate a spaceship. Hence the usual description of inertial mass does not apply.

The fields within space have vacuum energies, not the space-time itself...
This is incorrect I'm afraid. A field is a particular disposition of spatial energy. Whilst it might be modelled in a quantized fashion via virtual particles, these particles are virtual. They aren't real particles. For example the electromagnetic field of an electron comprises energy and has a mass-equivalence. In QED it's modelled very successfully via virtual-photon exchange particles. But the only particle actually present is the electron. There are no actual photons flitting back and forth in the space between an electron and a proton. In similar vein people attempt to model gravity via gravitons, but there are no actual particles flitting back and forth in the space between two gravitating bodies.

The relative velocity you deem yourself to have relative to some frame in a vacuum is immaterial, the vacuum is Lorentz invariant.
No problem.
 
Now if I am not mistaken a wave length is something that takes time to occur. To consider a photon particle size as it's wave length would be to grant the photon a temporal value and that would make no sense at all.

So being the size of it's wave length can't be right can it?

Would that be a fair assessment?

No it would not. You're getting confused between wavelength which is simply the distance between two peaks or troughs, and the period, which is the time for one of these to occur. The two are not independent of course, and if you know one you can always translate it into the other.
 
No it would not. You're getting confused between wavelength which is simply the distance between two peaks or troughs, and the period, which is the time for one of these to occur. The two are not independent of course, and if you know one you can always translate it into the other.
so distance wave length is not time related in this instance?

I would have thought that for a constantly travelling at 'c' wave, wavelength distance as you put it, must have a time value of some sort.
frequency.gif

image c/o google images
frequency over time
 
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Now if I am not mistaken a wave length is something that takes time to occur

The wavelength is a spatial distance. You might be confusing it with the period, which is a time.

To consider a photon particle size as it's wave length would be to grant the photon a temporal value and that would make no sense at all.

What do you mean by "a temporal value"?

So being the size of it's wave length can't be right can it?

Would that be a fair assessment?

Not according to my understanding of physics.

photon moves in space only not in time
gravitational red shift change frequency of light, velocity is invariant

If a photon is here now, and there one minute from now, then the photon has travelled through space and time.
 
so distance wave length is not time related in this instance?

I would have thought that for a constantly travelling at 'c' wave, wavelength distance as you put it, must have a time value of some sort.
frequency.gif

image c/o google images
frequency over time

The curves in your picture have wavelengths yet nothing is changing with time. Likewise if you have a photon standing wave in some cavity then it has a wavelength in exactly the same sense. Sure it wiggles up and down with time (I mean a curve of the intensity of the field vs position) but the wavelength doesn't change nor would it lack a definition if you took a snapshot of this standing wave pattern. Photons flying through free space are not so different, though their wavelength may certainly be more poorly defined in some situations (uncertainty principle stuff).
 
What do you mean by "a temporal value"?
if at t=0 the wavelength is the size of the photon and this length is determined by it's period then at t=0 the photon would have t value greater than t=0

say for example the wave length was 10lys [ dialetic extreme ]

At t=0 the photon particle size = 10lys
Because the wave length is a distance taken over time..

therefore it must have a temporal value....so I am having trouble comprehending how a photon particle can be given the size of it's wave length. [ which amongst other things would mean that the size is variable according to that wave length]

On the graphs shown would it be correct to say that any point on the curved lines used would be t=0 and not the entire line between peeks as being t=0?
If the entire line between peeks is the photons size then half the photon could be in the past and the other half could be in the future ....

Do you happen to have a link that may explain it in better ways?
 
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IMHO there's an interesting paper on this called How Long is a Photon? by Drozdov and Stahlhofen, see http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.2596. It discusses the photon as a single pulse, and the conclusion says:

"A critical review of the well known concept of a photon frequency reveals inconsistencies in the conventional picture and interpretation of the photon structure. A treatment of the photon as a single pulse of the electromagnetic field is possible as argued above without raising contradictions with basic principles of quantum mechanics and electrodynamics..."
 
When light is intercepted by a diamond, what actually happens is that the photon more-or-less "collides" with an electron in a carbon atom. Its energy is absorbed by the electron and at this instant the photon no longer exists. The electron continues to carry the energy, but since it has mass (unlike a photon) it travels much more slowly than the speed of light. When it finally reaches the other side of its atom, it releases that energy and another photon (not the same one!) instantly springs into existence. Since photons have no mass, the principles of force and acceleration cannot be applied to them, and the photon is traveling at exactly the speed of light throughout the entire duration of its existence.

Rather quickly, that photon runs smack-dab into another carbon atom (since they are so close together in a diamond crystal) and the same sequence of events occurs again. Yet another photon then travels to yet another carbon atom, until eventually the last photon reaches the other side of the diamond and flies through space unencumbered.

So "light," in the form of photons, is only traveling through the diamond in the spaces between the atoms. When the energy is being transported within an atom by an electron, from one side to the other, this is not really light.

The light changes back and forth from photons into another energy medium. Only when it is actually "light," i.e. photons, does it move at the speed of light. The rest of the time it is moving at the slower speed that a particle with mass (in this case an electron) is capable of reaching.

The light never slows down. It just changes into a different form of energy, which is carried by particles with mass, and particles with mass move slower than light.

After all, when sunlight hits the roof of a black car and is absorbed, we don't say, "The light is not moving at all inside the black paint." We say that the light has changed into a different form of energy: the heat that makes black cars very uncomfortable in the summer, the reason nobody buys black cars in Arizona. When the photons hit the roof, they cease to exist. There is no more "light."
 
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