light propagates at c + v?

BdS said:
hahaha, really? Ever heard of the calendar? day and night? etc...
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How exactly does day and night tell you Earth is traveling?

I think you may be out of your depth.

BdS said:
“The Solar System is traveling at an average speed of 828,000 km/h (230 km/s)”
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Yup. Relative to the galaxy. How fast is our galaxy moving? Or is our galaxy stationary?

BdS said:
Take a mounted laser and shine it against the wall from a distance of 1 metre. Draw a dot on the wall where the laser light is and keep it on for a year. If light travels at only c then we should detect a drift of up to 0.767188mm from the dot we drew on the wall.
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False.

You are definitely out of your depth.

You have made a classic error that catches many uninformed people in the 'rocketship turns on its headlights' thought experiment.

Rocket travels at .99c. Turns on its headlights. Does the light beam move at 1.99c? It does not. You have not accounted for time dilation.


You really, really need to read up on this a bit.
 
DaveC426913 said:
How exactly does day and night tell you Earth is traveling?
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I think you mean spinning and how cant it prove the earth is spinning?
DaveC426913 said:
I think you may be out of your depth.
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Ok, we'll let you be the judge.
DaveC426913 said:
False.
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In what way is it false?
DaveC426913 said:
You are definitely out of your depth.
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Ok, we'll let you be the judge. Can you tell me why?
DaveC426913 said:
You have made a classic error that catches many uninformed people in the 'rocketship turns on its headlights' thought experiment.
Rocket travels at .99c. Turns on its headlights. Does the light beam move at 1.99c? It does not. You have not accounted for time dilation.
You really, really need to read up on this a bit.
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Why should I rely on your meager thought experiment? when we have 2 proposed realistic physical experiments available in the thread already?
Regardless of the velocity you are traveling at .99c or 230 km/s the measurement will still produce either c or c + v. Since we know we are traveling at 230 km/s I'll conduct the experiment at that current realistic velocity or do you expect us to wait until we can travel at .99c? and who know if we'll ever be able to achieve that speed.
 
DaveC426913 said:
How fast is our galaxy moving?
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I dont care but I can prove that we are moving at that speed in the galaxy relative to the galactic center. If inflation theory is correct our galaxy is moving, but its just another v to add to the c + v + v + v (and our new) + v. Actually inflation speed would even be greater than 230km/s which just shows that there would even be a greater drift if light only traveled at c.
 
BdS said:
The whole experiment is conducted at sea level in the same dilated frame.
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DaveC426913 was refering to time dilation due to the relative velocities not due to a difference in gravity; Special Relativity VS General Relativity.
 
BdS said:
I dont care but I can prove that we are moving at that speed in the galaxy relative to the galactic center.
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Right but there is no way to prove if galaxy is moving or the solar system is moving. Besides did you take into account that the Milky Way is moving relative to the Vega super cluster or the movement of the super cluster?
If inflation theory is correct our galaxy is moving, but its just another v to add to the c + v + v + v (and our new) + v. Actually inflation speed would even be greater than 230km/s which just shows that there would even be a greater drift if light only traveled at c.
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I think when you say inflation you are actually talking about expansion of the universe. The expansion of the universe does not give any velocity to a galaxies motion through space.

I understand why you think that the velocity of your reference frame is added to the speed of light, since there would be no deflection in the light beam from your thought experiment. The issue is that there is no way to determine your motion through space since every reference frame appears to be motionless. Any experiment you do will tell you that you are motionless. For instance if you fell asleep and were put either on a jet flying at 600 mph or on a jet that was on the ground (with appropriate sounds and vibration) you would not be able to tell which one you were on. Further there is no experiment that could be devised by any physicist that would tell you that you were moving. So based on this - of course you would not see any deflection of the light beam

As pointed out by Dave, if you shine a laser out the front of a space ship traveling at .99c you would see the light moving away from you at c, which is not surprising, but someone in a reference frame that is stationary compared to you would see the light also moving at c. He would see the the distance between the laser beam and your ship only increasing by 0.01c, since the ship is moving at .99c relative to him.
 
origin said:
Right but there is no way to prove if galaxy is moving or the solar system is moving.
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origin said:
Besides did you take into account that the Milky Way is moving relative to the Vega super cluster or the movement of the super cluster?
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You just contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences, read carefully what you just said. You cant prove the galaxy is moving... then you tell me I didnt take into account milkyway is moving. lol
origin said:
I understand why you think that the velocity of your reference frame is added to the speed of light, since there would be no deflection in the light beam from your thought experiment.
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Its not what I "think" its what the experiments are showing.
origin said:
The issue is that there is no way to determine your motion through space since every reference frame appears to be motionless.
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Then how did we calculate the speed of the earths orbit and the speed of the galaxy's orbit?
origin said:
For instance if you fell asleep and were put either on a jet flying at 600 mph or on a jet that was on the ground (with appropriate sounds and vibration) you would not be able to tell which one you were on.
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Yes I would, I'd look out the window and I can see and measure things. What you trying to convince to accept is so stupid, because we would never have measured anything if it were true.
origin said:
As pointed out by Dave, if you shine a laser out the front of a space ship traveling at .99c you would see the light moving away from you at c, which is not surprising, but someone in a reference frame that is stationary compared to you would see the light also moving at c. He would see the the distance between the laser beam and your ship only increasing by 0.01c, since the ship is moving at .99c relative to him.
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Thats not what the experiments are showing so far.
 
BdS said:
So point out where im going wrong, since you are experienced at it then.
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I'm not sure what you are after -- the experiment you described is very simple. You claimed an outcome and it is has been demonstrated to be false. What else is there to discuss? At this point, all I see is that it is up to you to decide if you want to accept reality as it is or not. There really isn't much that can be done to help you with that -- it is a decision you must make for yourself.
 
Russ_Watters said:
I'm not sure what you are after -- the experiment you described is very simple. You claimed an outcome and it is has been demonstrated to be false. What else is there to discuss?
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The outcome is there is no drift and therefore light travels at c + v and it is very simple so whats so hard to understand?
 
BdS said:
I dont care but I can prove that we are moving at that speed in the galaxy relative to the galactic center. If inflation theory is correct our galaxy is moving, but its just another v to add to the c + v + v + v (and our new) + v. Actually inflation speed would even be greater than 230km/s which just shows that there would even be a greater drift if light only traveled at c.
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Right. And any MMX-type experiments should show that. But they don't.
 
BdS said:
The outcome is there is no drift and therefore light travels at c + v and it is very simple so whats so hard to understand?
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Oh I see, you're not exactly making your own wrong prediction about what happens, but rather wrongly attributing the wrong prediction to the mainstream view. Nothing we can do to help you there either -- you can either accept what you are told as honest opinions or believe that people are lying to you about their own ideas.
 
BdS said:
So point out where im going wrong, since you are experienced at it then.
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It takes a book. Read up on Einstein's train experiment to see why light rays from moving sources do not drift. It involves time dilation.
 
BdS said:
You just contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences, read carefully what you just said. You cant prove the galaxy is moving... then you tell me I didnt take into account milkyway is moving. lol
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Correct. Fact contradicts your hypothesis.

That the galaxy is moving is a required parameter of your theory (because your measurement of the speed of light includes v). Since we have no way of determining v, your hypothesis fails.

BdS said:
origin said:
As pointed out by Dave, if you shine a laser out the front of a space ship traveling at .99c you would see the light moving away from you at c, which is not surprising, but someone in a reference frame that is stationary compared to you would see the light also moving at c. He would see the the distance between the laser beam and your ship only increasing by 0.01c, since the ship is moving at .99c relative to him.
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Thats not what the experiments are showing so far.
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Yes, it really is.
 
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