"Liberal" American Jew equates civic equality with genocide

could you please explain how somehow creating a "solution" that acknowledges a jewish right of theft as civic equality?

So when the British held Israel as a colony it was alright. But when the Jews have it as an actual country all of the sudden its a crime?

At the very least, the arabs aren't living in a colony any more but a country. And I don't know if you've noticed, but the Jews have drastically improved Israel itself as a country since they settled there. Because lets face it objectively, if it were not for the Jewish settlement it probably would have ended up far worse then even the neighboring countries. Why? Because it had no oil.

So it sounds pretty hypocritical to me that you call the Jews 'thieves' for doing what literally around a dozen other nations did.
 
In a way, a two state solution would be better for Palestinians especially if their security forces and armed forces are trained by the Israelis

How will Israelis respond to a quid pro quo?

Palestinian security forces opened fire early Sunday on three cars full of Israelis who entered the West Bank compound of Joseph's Tomb without permission and then tried to break through a local checkpoint, according to an initial investigation by the Israel Defense Forces and the Palestinian Authority.

Ben-Joseph Livnat, a 25-year-old father of four and nephew of Culture and Science Minister Limor Livnat, was killed in the shooting. Three other people were wounded, and are in light to serious conditions.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...gh-palestinian-roadblock-probe-shows-1.357885

Not very well, I think

Clashes in West Bank after Israeli shot dead near holy site
Dozens of masked Israeli youth hurl rocks at Palestinian village, try to torch houses, hours after man killed and three others wounded by Palestinian security forces following an unauthorized visit to Joseph's Tomb.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ter-israeli-shot-dead-near-holy-site-1.357896

So is this the better route?
 
Boy, you're really in quite the rush to stir things up. The reports out of Israel are saying the Israeli victims tried to run a roadblock and knew there could be trouble. It's being investigated now so we'll see, but it looks like that story is going to hold and, if it does, I say it's about time Palestinians had the right to defend themselves from provocations, or there wouldn't be a point to them having a police force.
 
Seek help.

What is insane is that you act like a god damn rash

Sorry: how can one act like a rash?

because someone dared say "usual suspects" and then you accused him of giving her ammo to use against you by being civil to her.

The first part of that sentence made a kind of sense, but was wrong; the second made not the slightest sense. WTF are you talking about?

And you're calling me delusional?

Yes. Extremely so. (Your PM was kind of bigot-y, also.)

You did not just comment though. You became offended because

Tiassa referred to Sam's critics on the thread as "usual suspects". Or maybe you're crazed enough to think he meant these guys:

Usual_suspects_ver1.jpg


Learn to read..

Bells: I read your comment. It just made no rational sense. Please explain what you're talking about here. I expect it's more nonsense, but I admit I could be surprised.

Geoff, you went off your nut and became offended enough to report.

Of course I was offended enough to report. Is this really so complicated? I've warned you, Sam and a few others that if the "b-word" gets thrown at me, I'm just going to hit the report button: if it's a mod, I may even kick it right up the ladder. Because - and unlike some people - I'm not one. I have done nothing to deserve it, no matter what the usual suspects on the forum like to insinuate.

As I said Geoff, you would not know anti-semitism if it came and bit you on the arse.

If you think so, you are extraordinarily foolish. I think I have quite a good appreciation of who the forum's anti-Semites are. Some may have even posted on this thread.

I PM'ed you with 2 links and a brief explanation of what the links were. Politely and not a single insult in it.

Bells: "I saw that you were quick to make fun of them instead of actually discussing the point in the thread. I guess whatever you can get your hands on, eh?"

:rolleyes:

Steak knives are the bonus. You're not worthy of the Steak Knives.

Thank god for that, Glenn.
 
I usually stop reading when geoff and bells start spewing hate...

I"m still fairly new here, but For some reason this reminds me of two drunk drag queens getting in a fistfight...

Picture blood, screaming, taffeta, glitter, chunks of weave, and plastic fingernails flying everywhere.

"I'M GONNA GET YOU, BEEOTCH!"
"OH? WELL BRING YO' PUNK-ASS ON THEN!"

I just ignore them...
 
Regarding the incident at Joseph's Tomb...it sounds like the Jewish hasidim have been pushing this for a while....they get one authorized group visit a month, but apparently there have been regular unauthorized visits.
This time somebody got killed.

Let's see if the Palestinians do have the right to hold their own territory sovereign.
 
I"m still fairly new here, but For some reason this reminds me of two drunk drag queens getting in a fistfight...

Picture blood, screaming, taffeta, glitter, chunks of weave, and plastic fingernails flying everywhere.

"I'M GONNA GET YOU, BEEOTCH!"
"OH? WELL BRING YO' PUNK-ASS ON THEN!"

I just ignore them...

Ewww plastic fingernails and taffeta..

That's just wrong..:mad:

I never EVER wear either.



And don't worry.. I'm done. There comes a time when bleeding forehead from bashing head into brick wall clouds one's vision and the belief that some humanity remained in the opposition.. until the blood is wiped away and reality of who the opposition is becomes clear. So.. I'm done.
 
Regarding the incident at Joseph's Tomb...it sounds like the Jewish hasidim have been pushing this for a while....they get one authorized group visit a month, but apparently there have been regular unauthorized visits.
This time somebody got killed.

Let's see if the Palestinians do have the right to hold their own territory sovereign.

Probably not very well.


Reverse the situation and we would not be having this discussion at all.
 
"No problem of coordination can justify an incident like this and the shooting of innocent people," Barak said, calling the incident no less than "murder".

Yeah, no irony in that statement there, uh-uh.

Edited to add...I guess that statement makes sense if you don't consider the Palestinians that get killed by "mistake" regularly to be people.
 
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Israeli soldiers mistakenly opened fire on a convoy of settlers taking advantage of the ongoing incursion in Nablus to go to Joseph's tomb, one of the holiest sites in Judaism, which is located inside autonomous Palestinian territory in Nablus. Seven settlers were arrested by the army, for illegally entering a combat zone. (Tanks roll back into Nablus 30 May 2002)​
 
Boy, you're really in quite the rush to stir things up. The reports out of Israel are saying the Israeli victims tried to run a roadblock and knew there could be trouble. It's being investigated now so we'll see, but it looks like that story is going to hold and, if it does, I say it's about time Palestinians had the right to defend themselves from provocations, or there wouldn't be a point to them having a police force.

???? I'm saying it's an excellent frame of reference for Israelis to have to go through some of the Palestinian experiences of the last 60 years. If Palestinian security personnel are trained by the IDF they will follow IDF ROE against Israeli citizens who break the law inside Palestine.

Already the reaction - to what is a daily almost mundane recurrence in Palestine - is evocative of what Israeli reaction will be to the Palestinian "lifestyle" under the IDF

Israeli killed, three wounded in shooting at West Bank holy site
Nephew of Culture Minister Livnat dies after Palestinian security officer openfire on cluster of vehicles leaving Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after unauthorized visit; IDF stresses that pilgrims are given monthly opportunity to pray at site with permission and proper security.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...d-in-shooting-at-west-bank-holy-site-1.357852

Israelis shot in West Bank tried to break through Palestinian roadblock, probe shows
Nephew of Culture Minister Limor Livnat killed, three others wounded after Palestinian security forces shot at their cars near West Bank holy site of Joseph's Tomb.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...gh-palestinian-roadblock-probe-shows-1.357885
Minister Livnat: My nephew was killed by a terrorist disguised as a Palestinian policeman
Hundreds attend the funeral of Ben-Joseph Livnat Sunday, killed by a Palestinian security officer leaving Joseph's Tomb near the West Bank city of Nablus earlier that day.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...disguised-as-a-palestinian-policeman-1.357901
Netanyahu: PA must take severe steps against killers of Ben-Joseph Livnat
Ehud Barak says there is no excuse that could justify the Palestinian security forces' fatal use of live fire against the Israelis who entered Joseph's Tomb without authorization.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...against-killers-of-ben-joseph-livnat-1.357878

I wonder if the Israelis realise what a two state solution will mean. 60% of the Israeli water supply is from West Bank aquifers

In 1967, she explained, Israel took control of the West Bank water supply and has denied permission to Palestinians who want to dig wells or pump water. As a result, the people are forced to buy water from tanker trucks which is 12 times more expensive and susceptible to water-borne diseases.

Koppleman said there are plenty of Palestinian water engineers but Israel prevents them from piping in water. While Palestinian villages go thirsty, Israel pumps in abundant water to illegal Zionist settlements and their swimming pools. This, she pointed out, is a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which states it is illegal for an occupying power to transfer people into an occupied area or extract natural resource from occupied land.

http://www.washington-report.org/co...waging-peace-west-bank-gaza-water-crimes.html
.


West Bank settlements get their infrastructure [water, electricity, building permission, bus services, military protection] and "Jews only" status from Israel. Under Israeli citizenship, they enjoy the benefits of welfare which will not be available to them under Palestinian rule - unless Israel wants to run a quid pro quo with the Palestinian government funding madrassas in Israel. Settlers in the West Bank will not be able to go to Israel as easily. Gaza will become part of the Palestinian state and Hamas part of the administration.

And the Palestinian right of return will be a non-issue.

So considering the topic was American Jews, do you think the US will veto the UN resolution recognising Palestinian statehood?
 
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I think they want a one-state solution: all of it.
And the Israeli government seems to be getting more right-wing...translation: possibly more willing to massacre?

The settlers...Oh, I find it entirely laughable...the idea that they would remain for long without the weight of the Israeli government behind them.
They would behave the way the settlers always have, and then the Palestinian authority would either arrest them for it, or there would be a standoff, and the settlers would get starved out and eventually jailed/deported as appropriate.
 
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I wonder if the Israelis realise what a two state solution will mean. 60% of the Israeli water supply is from West Bank aquifers

The Wikipedia article on Palestinian water supplies says the figure is 25%, not 60%. Desalination plants can make up for the difference.

West Bank settlements get their infrastructure [water, electricity, building permission, bus services, military protection] and "Jews only" status from Israel. Under Israeli citizenship, they enjoy the benefits of welfare which will not be available to them under Palestinian rule - unless Israel wants to run a quid pro quo with the Palestinian government funding madrassas in Israel. Settlers in the West Bank will not be able to go to Israel as easily. Gaza will become part of the Palestinian state and Hamas part of the administration.

A two-state solution will mean much of the West Bank has to be evacuated of Jewish settlers, and land of equal value must be given in compensation for any settlements Israel wishes to annex near the border.

And the Palestinian right of return will be a non-issue.

A non-issue with whom? I haven't heard anything from the UN other than insisting that the problem must be solved through negotiation.

So considering the topic was American Jews, do you think the US will veto the UN resolution recognising Palestinian statehood?

If it's consistent with America's vision of a two-state solution with respective Jewish and Palestinian majorities, and Israel doesn't pre-empt the resolution with a serious border proposal of its own, I don't think the US will veto it.
 
A non-issue with whom? I haven't heard anything from the UN other than insisting that the problem must be solved through negotiatio

A non issue, period. A Palestinian state can take in as many Palestinian refugees as they want. This is just one of the reasons why a two state solution would be more beneficial for Palestine.


If it's consistent with America's vision of a two-state solution with respective Jewish and Palestinian majorities, and Israel doesn't pre-empt the resolution with a serious border proposal of its own,
I didn't know America has a "vision" for Jewish and Palestinian majorities in a two state solution. Is there some link to what the US envisions these political entities will be?

I don't think the US will veto it.

You're more optimistic than I. I'm convinced the US will veto it under pressure from the Lobby - they did after all veto the condemnation of the settlements inspite of their so-called political position on it since the last 60 years. Actions, in my opinion, speak louder than words
 
A non issue, period. A Palestinian state can take in as many Palestinian refugees as they want. This is just one of the reasons why a two state solution would be more beneficial for Palestine.

Good lord. Has there been an actual change of opinion on SF? Someone has actually altered an opinion they held?

I will write this down in my dream diary.

As for a vision of two-state, isn't this what the Oslo Accords were intended to achieve?
 
Good lord. Has there been an actual change of opinion on SF? Someone has actually altered an opinion they held?

I will write this down in my dream diary.

As for a vision of two-state, isn't this what the Oslo Accords were intended to achieve?

No still ole Reading Incomprehension 101. I'm still for civic equality in a democratic one state. I don't think an independent Palestinian state is possible chiefly because

1. It is better for Palestinians to be free of the yoke of Israelis
2. Anything that is better for the Palestinians is unacceptable to Israel
 
I usually stop reading when geoff and bells start spewing hate...

Welcome to the club.

I've been here almost three years. This sums up those three years in the politics or world events categories. I am Jewish, and rather semitic, but also consider myself neutral.

Namely because I am a skeptic, I take whichever side of an argument I find the most entertaining/interesting.
 
GeoffP said:
As for a vision of two-state, isn't this what the Oslo Accords were intended to achieve?

No the intended aim of the Oslo Accords was more Israeli hasbara.

Tricky Bibi
Israel has had many rightist leaders since Menachem Begin promised "many Elon Morehs," but there has never been one like Netanyahu, who wants to do it by deceit.


This video should have been banned for broadcast to minors. This video should have been shown in every home in Israel, then sent to Washington and Ramallah. Banned for viewing by children so as not to corrupt them, and distributed around the country and the world so that everyone will know who leads the government of Israel. Channel 10 presented: The real (and deceitful ) face of Binyamin Netanyahu. Broadcast on Friday night on "This Week with Miki Rosenthal," it was filmed secretly in 2001, during a visit by Citizen Netanyahu to the home of a bereaved family in the settlement of Ofra, and astoundingly, it has not created a stir.

The scene was both pathetic and outrageous. The last of Netanyahu's devoted followers, who believe he is the man who will bring peace, would have immediately changed their minds. Presidents Barack Obama and Shimon Peres, who continue to maintain that Netanyahu will bring peace, would be talking differently had they seen this secretly filmed video clip. Even the objection of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to conducting direct negotiations with the man from the video would be understandable. What is there to discuss with a huckster whose sole purpose is "to give 2 percent in order to prevent 100 percent," as his father told him, quoting his grandfather.

Israel has had many rightist leaders since Menachem Begin promised "many Elon Morehs," but there has never been one like Netanyahu, who wants to do it by deceit, to mock America, trick the Palestinians and lead us all astray. The man in the video betrays himself in his own words as a con artist, and now he is again prime minister of Israel. Don't try to claim that he has changed since then. Such a crooked way of thinking does not change over the years.

Forget the Bar-Ilan University speech, forget the virtual achievements in his last visit to the United States; this is the real Netanyahu. No more claims that the Palestinians are to blame for the failure of the Oslo Accords. Netanyahu exposed the naked truth to his hosts at Ofra: he destroyed the Oslo accords with his own hands and deeds, and he's even proud of it. After years in which we were told that the Palestinians are to blame, the truth has emerged from the horse's mouth.

And how did he do it? He recalled how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations," and insisted he choose those same locations, such as the whole of the Jordan Valley, for example. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords," he boasts. The real Netanyahu also brags about his knowledge of America: "I know what America is. America is something that can be moved easily." For the White House's information.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/tricky-bibi-1.302053

video here

In the transcript of the speech at Silversteins blog, he claims to have manouevered Bill Clinton to get "value for money" - a little digging around the net tells me that Netanyahu met with Clinton around the same time he was caught with Monica Lewinsky and apparently Jerry Falwell did a kiss and tell in Vanity Fair that Bibi used the pressure of the scandal to get Clinton to back off the settlements.

No one played that card more forcefully than Benjamin “Bibi” Netanyahu, who as prime minister used the Christian right to fend off pressure from the Clinton administration to proceed with the peace process.

On a visit to Washington, D.C., in 1998, Netanyahu hooked up with Jerry Falwell at the Mayflower Hotel the night before his scheduled meeting with Clinton.

“I put together 1,000 people or so to meet with Bibi and he spoke to us that night,” recalls Falwell. “It was all planned by Netanyahu as an affront to Mr. Clinton.”

That evening, Falwell promised Netanyahu that he would mobilize pastors all over the country to resist the return of parts of the occupied West Bank territory to the Palestinians. Televangelist John Hagee, who gave $1 million to the United Jewish Appeal the following month, told the crowd that the Jewish return to the Holy Land signaled the “rapidly approaching … final moments of history,” then brought them to a frenzy chanting, “Not one inch!”—a reference to how much of the West Bank should be transferred to Palestinian control.

The next day, Netanyahu met with Clinton at the White House. “Bibi told me later,” Falwell recalls, “that the next morning Bill Clinton said, ‘I know where you were last night.’ The pressure was really on Netanyahu to give away the farm in Israel. It was during the Monica Lewinsky scandal.… Clinton had to save himself, so he terminated the demands [to relinquish West Bank territory] that would have been forthcoming during that meeting, and would have been very bad for Israel.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2005/12/rapture200512?currentPage=all

So yeah, thats the Oslo Accords for you. Btw, does anyone know Monica Lewinsky's position on Zionism?
 
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