adl's foxman might fit the bill... but then again he might not
he could be a nobody with the adl hardly representing the jewish street
furthermore who reads the nyt anyways
Two Peoples, One State
"Liberal" American Jew equates civic equality with genocide
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
adl's foxman might fit the bill... but then again he might not
he could be a nobody with the adl hardly representing the jewish street
furthermore who reads the nyt anyways
Two Peoples, One State
One of the most fascinating outcomes of this "civic equality equals genocide" argument is how it converts human rights workers and human rights organisations into antisemites and racists for being unable to place one ethnic group in a separate category as compared to another.
For example on reading this :
what would you consider the article to be about?
certainly not an article on extraordinary rendition in Israel :
Israel, Extraordinary Rendition and the Strange Case of Dirar Abu Sisi
Thursday 21 April 2011
by: Richard Silverstein, Truthout
So for an American Jew to expose a case of extraordinary rendition by Israel is well, racist and antisemitic. The mind boggles.
For example on reading this :
what would you consider the article to be about?
certainly not an article on extraordinary rendition in Israel :
Israel, Extraordinary Rendition and the Strange Case of Dirar Abu Sisi
Thursday 21 April 2011
by: Richard Silverstein, Truthout
So for an American Jew to expose a case of extraordinary rendition by Israel is well, racist and antisemitic. The mind boggles.
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Since when did civic equality and one-state solutions suddenly become synonymous? Who gave you a monopoly on the term? Italians are opposed to civic equality because they won't accept unconditional migration from Libya? Tibetans want sovereignty so they must not want civic equality for ethnic Hans? Right, no double standards against Jews, nope, we're all just humanitarian liberals here...
This is truly fascinating. Are you saying, that for "liberal" American Jews civic equality and one state solutions are NOT synonymous? What - in your learned opinion - do American Jews who do support the one state solution, consider it to be? One without civic equality for all its citizens?
Well thats certainly a new one for me, I will have to reconsider all that I have read about the one state solution, to embrace those who support a state with a minority that is denied its civil rights. i.e. its not just those "liberals" who equate "one state" with genocide who seem to be "illiberal freaks" in disguise, but even those who do support one state may be "illiberal freaks" in disguise. Wowwwweeeee!
Could you name some, I guess "liberal", American Jewish supporters of the one state solution who oppose civic equality for all?
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I think he's just saying that civic equality could also be possible in a two-state solution.
Possibly, but who is voting on the two state solution? What do you think will happen in September when Palestinian statehood is declared? Will the West Bank settlers accept a Palestinian citizenship? Will they defend Palestine against Israeli encroachment? Or will they go to PA prisons as "terrorists"? Or will they move to Israel? Talking about the two state solution is like talking about the secession of Texas. Its mostly wishful thinking on the part of those who want it - the one state solution is the reality whether we go through Israeli resistance or Israeli civil war.
How do you see it proceeding?
SAM has really bent over backwards to make it seem otherwise. It's quite a convoluted position she's clinging to but eh, whatever works and makes any disagreement sound like thuggery. She should just be consistent and argue that nationalism is incompatible with equality, but then she'd have to pick fights with much broader targets.
thats alright
sam can stay focused on the zionists and i will throw scraps to appease those that insists that one's political interests should be catholic in its scope
here
lets thrash the dalai lama
OMG
i can see it now. internment camps and forced relocation
and he claims to be a buddhist
fascist pig!
/scoffs
sam
put your sig on this post
sam can stay focused on the zionists and i will throw scraps to appease those that insists that one's political interests should be catholic in its scope
here
lets thrash the dalai lama
Question 3: Hello, Your Holiness. Regardless of what political path China takes in the future, the gap between ordinary Tibetans and ordinary Han Chinese is getting bigger all the time. Many Tibetan people are too simplistic when they say the problem is just that Hans rule Tibet. In fact we Han people are also victims of the same dictatorial rule. How do you view this problem? Do you have any way of maintaining good relations between Hans and Tibetans?
Dalai Lama: Relations between the Han and Tibetan people did not begin in 1949 or 1950; they arose more than a thousand years ago. There have been times of harmony and times of conflict. We are now in a time of conflict, but the cause of the conflict has been the government, not the people. This why our people-to-people relations are so important. It is why we have set up “Tibetan-Han Friendship Associations” in many of the free countries of the world. These associations have seen some success.
As for how to maintain good relations between Hans and Tibetans, my experience, wherever I go, has been that I get a lot of respect and sympathy from people if I just approach them as one human being to another. If Hans and Tibetans approach one another in this way, on a basis of equality, many problems might be solved. When I meet people from mainland China, I always find them extremely sincere and find no barriers to communicating with them.
Question 4: I would like to ask your Holiness about your “Memorandum on Achieving True Autonomy for All Tibetans,” in which you do not mention how to protect the rights of Han people living in Tibet. Would you, after autonomy, recognize the right of Han people who currently reside in Tibetan areas to continue living there? Can you publish a Memorandum describing how you would guarantee equal rights of life and livelihood to Han people in Tibetan areas? Many Han people believe that your “autonomy” is another word for independence and that an autonomous government would discriminate against Hans and drive them out.
Dalai Lama: Han people were living in Tibet before [the CCP takeover in] 1950. There were Hans and Muslims living near the place where I was born. In the future, too, Hans will no doubt live in Tibet. The crucial question is whether Tibet will become like Inner Mongolia, where Mongols have now become a minority. When this happens the significance of self-rule is lost. In some Tibetan districts, where the Han population has grown large, the language and culture of Tibet are in great peril.
Dalai Lama: Relations between the Han and Tibetan people did not begin in 1949 or 1950; they arose more than a thousand years ago. There have been times of harmony and times of conflict. We are now in a time of conflict, but the cause of the conflict has been the government, not the people. This why our people-to-people relations are so important. It is why we have set up “Tibetan-Han Friendship Associations” in many of the free countries of the world. These associations have seen some success.
As for how to maintain good relations between Hans and Tibetans, my experience, wherever I go, has been that I get a lot of respect and sympathy from people if I just approach them as one human being to another. If Hans and Tibetans approach one another in this way, on a basis of equality, many problems might be solved. When I meet people from mainland China, I always find them extremely sincere and find no barriers to communicating with them.
Question 4: I would like to ask your Holiness about your “Memorandum on Achieving True Autonomy for All Tibetans,” in which you do not mention how to protect the rights of Han people living in Tibet. Would you, after autonomy, recognize the right of Han people who currently reside in Tibetan areas to continue living there? Can you publish a Memorandum describing how you would guarantee equal rights of life and livelihood to Han people in Tibetan areas? Many Han people believe that your “autonomy” is another word for independence and that an autonomous government would discriminate against Hans and drive them out.
Dalai Lama: Han people were living in Tibet before [the CCP takeover in] 1950. There were Hans and Muslims living near the place where I was born. In the future, too, Hans will no doubt live in Tibet. The crucial question is whether Tibet will become like Inner Mongolia, where Mongols have now become a minority. When this happens the significance of self-rule is lost. In some Tibetan districts, where the Han population has grown large, the language and culture of Tibet are in great peril.
OMG
i can see it now. internment camps and forced relocation
and he claims to be a buddhist
fascist pig!
/scoffs
sam
put your sig on this post
in the case of italy and libya, i am nonplussed. do libyans have native title in italy? a right of return? are libyans claiming......
...those islands as their rightful home?
Libyans on Tuesday observed a five-minute silence in memory of Libyan citizens deported in October 1911 by the Italian occupation forces to the desert islands of Trimiti in southern Italy
...those islands as their rightful home?
Eh?
?? As Sam likes to ask: what in Hell are you blathering about? I "invented inserted [myself] into a discussion" - what does that even mean? When I comment well in advance of being called a "usual suspect", it can hardly be that I "invented inserted" (??) myself into that discussion. I became offended when it was not about me? What kind of crack are you smoking, exactly? Bells: this has to stop. It just does.
Sorry: are we not supposed to parry the arguments of our opposition? Or did you mean parrot? Or should I care?
Don't be absurd. When a mod injects themselves into a debate and starts throwing around the label of "bigot", there's little left but bomb throwing, ethically. It amazes me that you can really seem so dull as to think that I want people to insult me like that. Because I want to be attacked? Really, are you unhinged? This is getting way, way past ridiculous, Bells.
...meaning that you think...I really, actually picked up all the little individual letters out of that post, to construct an issue that exists essentially in your own mind, and that of Tiassa. Because you're telling me that there was no joke. Wow. Bells: again. This has to stop.
Oh, God, not this now. I point out some of the extraordinarily tenuous connections Sam is trying to make, and you think it's an attack. Wow, again. You must be some kind of expert debater, living in a world in which no one is allowed to discuss things.
Actually, those are questions I was kind of wondering about Sam. But good luck in this new moment for SF, when you won't just parrot the opposition's arguments. Any stranger a debating complexion and you'd probably be the moderator of Ethics, Morality and Justice.
Sorry to hear that. I recommend abstaining altogether as it seems to be affecting your cognitive decisions.
Oh, so that was a hypothetical again.
?? As Sam likes to ask: what in Hell are you blathering about? I "invented inserted [myself] into a discussion" - what does that even mean? When I comment well in advance of being called a "usual suspect", it can hardly be that I "invented inserted" (??) myself into that discussion. I became offended when it was not about me? What kind of crack are you smoking, exactly? Bells: this has to stop. It just does.
Sorry: are we not supposed to parry the arguments of our opposition? Or did you mean parrot? Or should I care?
Don't be absurd. When a mod injects themselves into a debate and starts throwing around the label of "bigot", there's little left but bomb throwing, ethically. It amazes me that you can really seem so dull as to think that I want people to insult me like that. Because I want to be attacked? Really, are you unhinged? This is getting way, way past ridiculous, Bells.
...meaning that you think...I really, actually picked up all the little individual letters out of that post, to construct an issue that exists essentially in your own mind, and that of Tiassa. Because you're telling me that there was no joke. Wow. Bells: again. This has to stop.
Oh, God, not this now. I point out some of the extraordinarily tenuous connections Sam is trying to make, and you think it's an attack. Wow, again. You must be some kind of expert debater, living in a world in which no one is allowed to discuss things.
Actually, those are questions I was kind of wondering about Sam. But good luck in this new moment for SF, when you won't just parrot the opposition's arguments. Any stranger a debating complexion and you'd probably be the moderator of Ethics, Morality and Justice.
Sorry to hear that. I recommend abstaining altogether as it seems to be affecting your cognitive decisions.
Oh, so that was a hypothetical again.
I'm sure she would sign off on it, I remember a while back she started a thread on "why Buddhism is a failure". Guess that one didn't work out so well, better to stick with
Good idea. I could alienate the thinking mods, also.
I'll leave it to you to start that poll, gus.
Sorry: how is this projection?
But that was total shit.
Missing an apostrophe there, ESL girl.
Also, one doesn't generally capitalize 'Hell' in such a way. I was referring to your characterization of the issue as 'racist'. I thought we'd dealt with this previously. I expect that you'd understand it about as well as last time, though, so I have to retract my offer. I mean, given the paragraph of complete supposition following your above comments, what's my best case hope for your comprehension? Fuck those odds.
So when is he moving to Tibet to protect the culture? Guess his Prada shoes are more relevant at this point.
Now can we go back to liberal American Jews who equate the one state solution [with or without civic equality] with genocide?
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Is it or is it not genocide?
I mean the pure jewish genes would be mixed with inferior arab genes right?
I doubt that you will find many liberal Americans (jew or not) with this opinion.
I mean the pure jewish genes would be mixed with inferior arab genes right?
I doubt that you will find many liberal Americans (jew or not) with this opinion.
Bells
Staff member
You know exactly what I meant. You inserted yourself into that conversation and demanded it was about you..
I did mean parrot. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Dear god.. He was discussing the thread topic with another member. You then demanded attention and accused him of mistreating you in this thread when he had not even been discussing you or addressing you. You then kept at it and at it, even after he repeatedly requested you get a bit of a clue.. Are you surprised at the reaction you got?
Do you think you deserved better?
To top it off, you then reported said moderator and then got snippy when the moderator of this forum advised you that you should start playing nice if you expected others to play nice to you.
And you ask me if I am unhinged?
I had one poster tell me that they thought it was funny and that you had to be in on the joke and then realised with horror that you were actually serious.
You tell me Geoff.
You launched a hysterical rant because someone used the words "usual suspects" and you demanded that it had to be about you.. If that wasn't bad enough, you then insisted that speaking to Sam in a civilised manner and using such words gave her ammunition to fire at you.
So you tell me Geoff.
I see you are still delusional.
So what is the point of discussing this with you again?
Tell me, does it bother you that people have civilised discussions with Sam about the Israel/Palestinian conflict?
Do you find that anti-semitic?
Yes Geoff.. It's everyone else and not you.
Keep telling yourself that.
Quite the contrary. I sent you the link by PM remember? And you responded so kindly.
Don't worry, I responded to you just as kindly.
Dickhead.. <-------- Yes, I called you that in the PM as well. Why discontinue that trend, eh Geoff?
Well, as I said in the PM back to you, that idea is sticking to you like shit to a baby's ass. And, as a simile, it's not a bad one. But again Bells: the delusion has to stop. Do you get this? Admittedly, I have no authority to force you to do so, but are you telling me you really cannot locate a moral imperative to stop? Bells, seriously: enough. It's insane. Do you understand this? It. Is. Insane. Stop.
And regarding "inserting myself into that conversation": as I said in the PM, hey, get this, but I'm allowed to comment on threads. Crazy, isn't it? On a discussion site? Allowed to comment? A madhouse.
There was no requirement for that level of insult unless, as usual, he had nothing to say. Actually, practically speaking, not even then. But then, that was the point, wasn't it? Hell, someone else even alluded to the same thing.
I "got snippy" with string, eh?
I think he'll live.WTF are you talking about here?
Oh, god. I constructed an image of Tiassa wrestling a coat rack. This is not a hysterical rant, unless you're so uneducated you can't differentiate the two.
OK: you are utterly senseless.
By contrast, let me ask this: are you certifiably insane? Now, when people run interference for Sam's more anti-Semitic discussions, it's certainly fair to call them enablers. Some of these people follow her around tighter than a posse of handlers.
You PMed me to start with and dropped your usual round of insults into it. I didn't ask you to contact me, and I was under the impression you wanted no further contact with me. You get what you pay for.
Edit: actually, sometimes you apparently get things you never paid for. If someone mails you shit, is that "free" shit? Is it a bonus?
could you please explain how somehow creating a "solution" that acknowledges a jewish right of theft as civic equality?
A two-state solution wouldn't recognize a Jewish right of theft, that's how.
My predicted response from pj: "fuck you your all fucking nazi land thiefs who don't care about human rights. i don't have time too punctutate because i just soiled myself and its YOUR fault!". Ok pj, let's see if you can do better.
Bells
Staff member
What is insane is that you act like a god damn rash because someone dared say "usual suspects" and then you accused him of giving her ammo to use against you by being civil to her.
And you're calling me delusional?
Ja..
You did not just comment though. You became offended because in that little mind of yours, you thought he meant you and you repeatedly kept at him to acknowledge you and then became offended when he virtually told you to stuff off..
To laugh another day.. yes..
Learn to read..
Geoff, you went off your nut and became offended enough to report.
As I said Geoff, you would not know anti-semitism if it came and bit you on the arse.
I PM'ed you with 2 links and a brief explanation of what the links were. Politely and not a single insult in it. I did comment on your focusing on my typos instead of actual discussion, because you know, that seemed important to you. You responded and called me lovely names and choice insults. I responded to you in kind and told you to go and fuck yourself as a result.
Steak knives are the bonus. You're not worthy of the Steak Knives.