Sometimes. Why?
Letter from school..
- Thread starter SnakeLord
- Start date
Sometimes. Why?
Well...Jan seems to think a true christian does not get "rat-arsed". So I just decided to ask another religious person if he partook in alcoholic pleasures.
With the problem that I'm not religious...lol.
Edit:However you could note that most of my friends(who got me into drinking among other things) go to church fromtime to time.
Thanks.
A simple yes or no would have been easier. Oh well, what can you do..
From what I can gather you do try and correlate atheism/lack of religion to the problems mentioned. As such I will once again go back to my Germany statement:
" Germany has a lower rate of underage pregnancies but also has a lower % religiosity than England, and so surely, if you were to claim these things were down to a lack of religion, Germany would be higher?"
Certainly. Let it be stated for the record that my daughters school are not forcing her to binge drink or have sex. If they were I would have the same problem with it that I am having with them attempting to force her into god worship.
Atheism doesn't encourage people to get rat arsed or have illicit sexual relations either. I remember bonking every female in sight when I was a young lad,(or certainly trying to). None of that was due to belief or lack thereof, but down to genetic disposition.
Because undoubtedly you have missed a key part of it. Again, my daughters school do not force her to binge drink or have sex. They do try and force her to worship gods without actually asking her opinion on the matter.
Priests, I would assume, are quite religious people. They know the bible, they supposedly communicate with god, they are those that the christian community look upto. Many of them bonk children.
Do not think for one second that belonging to a religion stops you from doing anything you want to - including having a drink up. Now, you say that religion encourages people not to binge drink - but so do papers, responsible parents - even atheist ones, the government - and a vast array of groups/people who's religiosity is irrelevant. To try and blame a lack of belief as the cause of drinking/sex or anything else of that nature is quite naive.
Tell you what, let's not let them judge what they are. You can do it for all of them. Jan can decide who is or is not a christian. Is that better?
I know of no doctrine that says to bonk young kids but you would be hard pressed to convince me that a christian priest is not a christian... instead he's.. an atheist? A muslim perhaps? A zoroastrian maybe?
There are jews that literally 'go by the book'. The women wear head scarves, they don't use contraception yada yada yada. Then you have more moderate jews that don't go to that extreme but do observe certain other jewish rituals such as resting on the Sabbath. Then you have even more moderate jews that drive on Saturday and eat the odd piece of bacon here and there. They are all jews, they just decide for themselves what specific words of their god they want to obey or listen to.
The same applies to christians and any other religion. You have fundies, you have devout, you have moderate and you have those that believe in the christian god but consider the laws and advice given as irrelevant to them. They are all christian.
Not really, no. Of course we could point at something concerning what you have said that I find quite interesting.
Many of these young binge drinking, runaway rebel teenagers probably considers themselves christian not because they decided and educated thjemselves into what they wanted to be but that .... they were indoctrinated by their school/parents.
Perhaps given this, you would finally concur that kids are better left alone to make up their own minds? In doing so you would find that they will know more about the religion they want to be a part of/the things they want to believe and perhaps might start behaving in the manner that Jan expects them to if they ever want to wear the "I'm a christian" badge.
Of course you still have a problem trying to establish that a jews that drives on Saturday is not a jew or a christian that drinks alcohol is not a christian.
You seem to be the definitive authority on what is or is not a christian so you tell me.
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Oh dear...I assumed since you tried to define 'christian'. My agolopies
At any rate, Snakelord stated the point I was trying to make i.e. "true christianity" is so not defined by alcohol, it's defined by the individual theist.
Side note: I just bought 'end of faith'...don't spoil then ending, just tell me who read it
pm's are ok since this is off topic
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Enterprise,
When a forum is entitled “Religion”, I’m quite sure that any atheist save the MOST disillusioned ones can witness, perceive, and understand that there must be, at some time, a scriptural pursuit in order to gain more understanding of “religion” in general. I assume you are smart enough to realise this, so I will leave out explanations as to why.
(Leviticus 11:13-19, repeated in Deuteronomy 14:11-20) Where the bat is referred to as a bird. Scientifically useless.
The proper transliteration of the word is “atalleph” which implies “flying in the dark”.
http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Bat
The heart is the region where the individual spirit-soul, is located, according to scriptures, a fuller explanation can be found in vedic literature, namely, shrimad bhagavatam.
Even today, we recognise that when something comes from the heart, it has more meaning than when it comes from the brain.
LOL!!! Are you kidding, it is rife, but the UK leads the way.
If you look back at our “little back-forths”, you will notice that I use the term “essential religion”, meaning the actual essence of religion, which is God.
I never actually stated that “religion teaches human intelligence”, religion teaches the human how to utilise his intelligence for the benefit of himself, other living-entities, and his environment, according to his particular level of awareness.
Irrelevant.
There is not one thing in this response, that relates to “religion”, which means a belief in God, deity, or gods. If you remove the words “religious” or “religion” from the above, it would be non-different to any other historical conflict.
Then please give an example, from a “religion” perspective.
The thing is, based on the understanding of “religion”, which you have exhibited here, it is hardly surprising you come to such a conclusion, so there is not much I say in response.
You have just proven my point.
If you look real hard, I think you will find this belief is not only held by fundamentalists.
Go easy on the ad-homs, they are not necessary.
Are we still talking about SL situation here, or are you on the move.
This is a contradictory question, but I will attempt a response.
You worship God in order to remember him at all times. It is not for his benefit or welfare, but for your own
This question implies that the point of believing, and/or worshiping God, is done for the sole purpose of converting others to their way of thinking. I disagree.
I don’t know that it is, you would have to give examples.
Jan.
When a forum is entitled “Religion”, I’m quite sure that any atheist save the MOST disillusioned ones can witness, perceive, and understand that there must be, at some time, a scriptural pursuit in order to gain more understanding of “religion” in general. I assume you are smart enough to realise this, so I will leave out explanations as to why.
(Leviticus 11:13-19, repeated in Deuteronomy 14:11-20) Where the bat is referred to as a bird. Scientifically useless.
The proper transliteration of the word is “atalleph” which implies “flying in the dark”.
http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Bat
The heart is the region where the individual spirit-soul, is located, according to scriptures, a fuller explanation can be found in vedic literature, namely, shrimad bhagavatam.
Even today, we recognise that when something comes from the heart, it has more meaning than when it comes from the brain.
LOL!!! Are you kidding, it is rife, but the UK leads the way.
If you look back at our “little back-forths”, you will notice that I use the term “essential religion”, meaning the actual essence of religion, which is God.
I never actually stated that “religion teaches human intelligence”, religion teaches the human how to utilise his intelligence for the benefit of himself, other living-entities, and his environment, according to his particular level of awareness.
Irrelevant.
There is not one thing in this response, that relates to “religion”, which means a belief in God, deity, or gods. If you remove the words “religious” or “religion” from the above, it would be non-different to any other historical conflict.
Then please give an example, from a “religion” perspective.
The thing is, based on the understanding of “religion”, which you have exhibited here, it is hardly surprising you come to such a conclusion, so there is not much I say in response.
You have just proven my point.
If you look real hard, I think you will find this belief is not only held by fundamentalists.
Go easy on the ad-homs, they are not necessary.
Are we still talking about SL situation here, or are you on the move.
This is a contradictory question, but I will attempt a response.
You worship God in order to remember him at all times. It is not for his benefit or welfare, but for your own
This question implies that the point of believing, and/or worshiping God, is done for the sole purpose of converting others to their way of thinking. I disagree.
I don’t know that it is, you would have to give examples.
Jan.
Enterprise,
Example.
He doesn’t.
It is not in the interest of the school, especially if it is a successful institution, to change its tradition, on the irrational fear of one or a few individuals. If SL feels that strongly about it, he seek out a school which caters for such irrationalism.
The first example (exodus) appears to be specifically for the people who were led out of captivity by Moses, who God had made a covenant with, and was said in accordance with their mentality. But you’d be better off asking a Christian its significance.
As for the second, my answer to you would be, no.
That’s your take on it, fair do’s matey.
And what does this opinion have to do with me, or my request?
Who/what am I?
What happens when I die?
Although my body changes, why am I still the same person?
Who/what is God?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
What is the purpose of life?.......................
In other words, you cannot answer my question, fair enough.
Your full of bold claims, are’nt you?
Well, okay, an example of correct answers, found by theists would be nice.
No problem, I believe this is the type of debate we should be having.
Jan.
Example.
He doesn’t.
It is not in the interest of the school, especially if it is a successful institution, to change its tradition, on the irrational fear of one or a few individuals. If SL feels that strongly about it, he seek out a school which caters for such irrationalism.
The first example (exodus) appears to be specifically for the people who were led out of captivity by Moses, who God had made a covenant with, and was said in accordance with their mentality. But you’d be better off asking a Christian its significance.
As for the second, my answer to you would be, no.
That’s your take on it, fair do’s matey.
And what does this opinion have to do with me, or my request?
Who/what am I?
What happens when I die?
Although my body changes, why am I still the same person?
Who/what is God?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
What is the purpose of life?.......................
In other words, you cannot answer my question, fair enough.
Your full of bold claims, are’nt you?
Well, okay, an example of correct answers, found by theists would be nice.
No problem, I believe this is the type of debate we should be having.
Jan.
SnakeLord,
Okay. No.
Which is why I referred you to my posts.
Based on that logic, yes.
Only the same problem?
I'm sure most people would consider it much more of a problem.
And it doesn't encourage them not to, therefore they are left to their own sense of sensorship.
Can you explain how they "try to force her to worship gods"?
Why? Because they wear what is seen as the apropriat uniform?
(that person is nice because they have a nice face)
Maybe, like you, its down to their genetic desposition.
I didn't say it did?
But it still doesn't detract from the fact that religion encourages people not to binge-drink.
I did no such thing.
But serious belief in God goes some way to clear that societal burden right up.
Afraid to answer the question?
Answer the above question, then we can move on.
"Jew" does not necessarily imply religious conviction, as opposed to linage and culture.
No it doesn't, anyone can become a christian.
Well this is the crooks of the problem, which is why we must have a working definition of "christian".
I tell you what, i'll show you mine, and you show me yours, okay.
A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as the Christ. Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, who lived a life befitting that of the creator of the universe, free of sin and full of love, who at the end of his earthly life was crucified, and then on the third day, rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian
Not really, no. Of course we could point at something concerning what you have said that I find quite interesting.
Many of these young binge drinking, runaway rebel teenagers probably considers themselves christian ...
Then as I consider myself the greatest scientist the world has ever seen, superior even to Newton and Einstein, I demand that you believe me, based on your logic.
Jan.
Okay. No.
Which is why I referred you to my posts.
Based on that logic, yes.
Only the same problem?
I'm sure most people would consider it much more of a problem.
And it doesn't encourage them not to, therefore they are left to their own sense of sensorship.
Can you explain how they "try to force her to worship gods"?
Why? Because they wear what is seen as the apropriat uniform?
(that person is nice because they have a nice face)
Maybe, like you, its down to their genetic desposition.
I didn't say it did?
But it still doesn't detract from the fact that religion encourages people not to binge-drink.
I did no such thing.
But serious belief in God goes some way to clear that societal burden right up.
Afraid to answer the question?
Answer the above question, then we can move on.
"Jew" does not necessarily imply religious conviction, as opposed to linage and culture.
No it doesn't, anyone can become a christian.
Well this is the crooks of the problem, which is why we must have a working definition of "christian".
I tell you what, i'll show you mine, and you show me yours, okay.
A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as the Christ. Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, who lived a life befitting that of the creator of the universe, free of sin and full of love, who at the end of his earthly life was crucified, and then on the third day, rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian
Not really, no. Of course we could point at something concerning what you have said that I find quite interesting.
Many of these young binge drinking, runaway rebel teenagers probably considers themselves christian ...
Then as I consider myself the greatest scientist the world has ever seen, superior even to Newton and Einstein, I demand that you believe me, based on your logic.
Jan.
Self serving justification, this is a scientific board, and religion can exist outside of belief as historical fact. As I pointed out.
A case of the Xerox phenomenon, a copy of a copy of a copy. My sources hold the original text as the bat being in a list of "oph" or (common) fowl. Try again.
Projected romanticism (from future to past). Back in those days there were NO English slangs, and NO concept of the heart as personification rather than literal. Christianity folks way back when LITERALLY believed the heart was the source of emotion.
By the way...why is it that when Christianity fails you, a lot of theists turn to Hinduism (like LG)? Christianity and Hinduism are entirely unrelated. Except that the powers of Christianity sought and seek to assimilate it.
Snakelord dealt with this, I see no need to say anything further. Your secular counterparts are having better times with morality. Nuff said.
More dodgy semantics based on your own bias. The most religion can be credited for is an enforced control of an older, less civilized humanity. And maybe some good literature.
Oh and for the record:
Jan Ardena said:
This statement, born of your keyboard, is NOT the same thing as "teaching the application of human intelligence.
Impossible.
All of this is an attempt to stray from the issue and justify your own beliefs. This plus the Hinduism link. Where is it defined that a "religion" is SOLELY a belief in any god? Religion as with any other topic has many aspects including its impact on the world. This is what a discussion board is for.
If one removed religion, there'd be considerably less historical conflict.
Sigh...examining religion from a historical perspective one can trace where the discrimination of women as the weaker sex came from (morals). As an example.
Um...That is the only logical understanding of religion there is. Anything further is speculative, fanciful and even fanatical.
Did you ever notice that humans who shed religion ALL have the same opinions of it? As opposed to (for example) you and -pick any four other theists on this board. I'm SURE you five can't agree on the laws of christianity.
That god is imaginary? Sure, thanks
Well, I take back the 'prude' but...you ARE being sanctimonious. It is extremely presumptuous to think that what YOU consider to be the best MUST be the best for all, and apply your beliefs without asking if others agree.
I am still applying all of this to the SL situation. More or less. That is what this thread is about right?
How is worshipping a more powerful being at the threat of oblivion or eternal torture beneficial to me? Or did I just answer my own question?
But this is how your organization operates Jan. It's called 'misery loves company'.
The only examples I have are my personal experiences with your overlord priests who always find some reason why us mere mortals are damned to hellfires.
Well done Jan...split the posts...I'll respond to part 2 later.
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This is maintained by the vast herds of power hungry men in power of the two major religions, it's their claim, not mine...I just restated.
Um...so why do imams and pastors insist that he does?
It is not in the interest of the school, especially if it is a successful institution, to change its tradition, on the irrational fear of one or a few individuals. If SL feels that strongly about it, he seek out a school which caters for such irrationalism.
Um...taxes grant the public the right to tell a school when they're doing crap. A school MUST accomodate every customer that it ACCEPTS. It need not (however) accept every customer that approaches.
Were they so concerned about their theist 'traditions' they should have told SL that in the first place, before he enrolled his daughter.
I reiterate, and (perhaps) on behalf of SL...it is not the fact that the school has these procedures...it is the fact that they seem to wish to force that which is a choice upon SL's daughter. That is a moral no-no, and quasi-legal at best.
Speaking of which, my lawyer would have had a field day with the school. I asked...
Maybe. But I'm asking you. You dove from christianity to hinduism, to general support of generic religion. Since you seem to know it all about theisms, and you asked for scriptural reference, I posed the question to you.
You're right, it sounds like slavery.
Why'd you give up so easily? I at least expected a reason why you think humanity should fall on its knees just because a (purported) being is omnipotent.
Typical priest answers:
Who/what am I? A child of god. That's all you need
What happens when I die? If you pray and worship the lord you go to paradise, if you don't you burn in the eternal hellfires
Although my body changes, why am I still the same person? Because god made your soul, your body is only an earthly vessel
Who/what is God? Your father and and the father of jesus your saviour
Why do bad things happen to good people? Because it's all part of the lord's grand plan. Trust that it is good.
What is the purpose of life? To worship the lord thy god, and to love one another as I have
The majority of christian theists...and i daresay many islamic ones accept variances to these answers as unmitigated truth. How is this conducive to independant thought and development of intellect?
Cheap shot, especially when I agree that statistics are easily manipulated. HOWEVER, I maintain that statistical numbers are quite possible to prove or disprove. I never said that it would be EASY.
I assume you meant "found by athiests". There are no answers attributable to 'atheism' per se. There are none attributable to 'theism' either. A person's personal fantasies about worship (or lack thereof) have nothing to do with inventions or discoveries. (I must say when I start to get passionate, I become a little less surgical). I would be so bold as to say however that a scientist unencumbered by christianity or islam has more drive and ambition to unlock the 'secrets of the universe'.
What I should have said was theisms lend nothing to the discovery of the correct answers of functions of the universe. Theism also does not prompt anyone to discover anything outside the covers of their respective books.
Do you think when Alexander Graham Bell designed the telephone he looked up the specs in the bible? Do you think it was written that Benjamin Franklin would conduct an experiment to illustrate lighning/electrical energy could be directed or harnessed?
well jan is actually right this time, because a "true christian" could drink poison and feel no ill effects, KJV mark 16,17:"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
so a little alcohol should'nt make any different, as it has no effect he cant get "rat arsed"
mind you having said that I've yet to find one who can do any of those thing, it seems there is no such thing, as a true christian.
jan is just BS you.
Oh I know that...but it illustrates one of the problems with religious beliefs, they almost never apply to any group of statistical significance with any appreciable level of consistency.
I have no interest in what "most people" would do, but this is largely besides the point. I was hoping you would get the point, but it seems not. My problem stems from schools, (or anyone for that matter), attempting to force my child into a specific belief/binge drinking or anything else. That's all there is to it.
How can it? Atheism is not a group of people that get together on weekends to discuss alcohol related problems. The only thing atheists share in common is their lack of belief in gods. Period. By that same token the only thing theists have in common is their belief in gods. Some of them will drink, snort coke, have sex with boys, other men, prostitutes, a horse.. etc. That's the way the cookie crumbles. The fact of the matter is that people have their own rights - which is what I argue for. If someone wants to binge drink let him. Don't attempt the all high and mighty because I'm sure with 10 minutes digging into your life I could find something equally 'bad', or perhaps even more so. You'd be amazed of the shit I hear on a daily basis that would make binge drinking look like flower picking.
At the age of 5 they made the kids stand up and say "dear god thank you for looking after us". I found it amusing that nowhere in that sentence was "dear mum and dad", nor was there any question asked whether the kids believed in a god or not. Five year olds tend not to turn round to the teacher and say no.. that is an example of something forced. If she was at the age where she could turn round and say no then I would not have issue - because it then comes down to personal decision. Right now they are forcing my daughter into worship via hymns, prayers and whatnot without asking her consent, without caring what she might or might not believe in and all because of what?
Jan, you are religious. You believe in a god, and I assume that you consider this god loving. Now kindly give me one decent reason as to why prayer/hymns and promoting fear or love of your god cannot wait until the child is 15. Why must it start before they can barely walk?
Silly costumes aside, no.. They seemingly believe in a jesus and a god and some other biblical crapola.
Perhaps so, that doesn't mean they're any less christian now does it?
So do most atheist parents. What is your point?
"Serious" belief in a god generally ends up in the deaths of innocent people. However, I would argue a persons unequivocal right to drink if they want to. What has it honestly got to do with you?
You're clearly the best person to answer it, now aren't you?
I did, in my own way. If not a christian what would you consider a christian priest? A muslim perhaps?
Replace jew with christian. The point was there I just think you missed it. The point was that "religious conviction" differs from person to person. It doesn't mean someone isn't christian because they ignore certain parts of biblical law.
? You can become a jew as well if you want to. Where is the relevance?
Fair enough.
To my last statement:
"You have fundies, you have devout, you have moderate and you have those that believe in the christian god but consider the laws and advice given as irrelevant to them. They are all christian."
Given your statement, they're all still christians. That was my point. Thanks.
Again you missed the point. However, the statement you used from wiki is suitable enough to make the point again. They're all christians regardless to what they do as long as they believe in jesus.
Oniw17
A christian is a follower of Jesus, which adds up to more than a belief in Jesus.
A Christian doesn’t say “I believe I am a Christian”, he would say “I am a christian”, and you would automatically believe them, so why wouldn't you believe my claim?
Every living being is defined by their actions, belief is fickle, and prone to change at the drop of a hat.
So how do you describe someone who has faith that Jesus was their messiah, but didn't follow in his footsteps, by way of his example?
Jan.
A christian is a follower of Jesus, which adds up to more than a belief in Jesus.
A Christian doesn’t say “I believe I am a Christian”, he would say “I am a christian”, and you would automatically believe them, so why wouldn't you believe my claim?
Every living being is defined by their actions, belief is fickle, and prone to change at the drop of a hat.
So how do you describe someone who has faith that Jesus was their messiah, but didn't follow in his footsteps, by way of his example?
Jan.
That is a devout christian, a christian is one who accepts christ as their savior. That's the definition of a christian. Of course there are good christians and bad christians, just as there is good and bad to every genre. I could easily say that you're not a christian because you haven't become an anchorite or a monk or a cardinal, or a bishop, and therefore you aren't a true follower of christ, you haven't devoted your entire life to christ. Have you studied Thomas Aquinas? St. Augustine? How then, can you be a true a true christian. If you choose to talk in absolutes, you must use absolutes, and not half-assed absolutes. If the christian must be the perfect christian, then they must be the perfect christian. Also, notice that I didn't say believe, I said accepts as their savior. There is a difference.
Yes, I'm aware that christians are very cocky, they also say "there is a god," rather than "I believe in God." It doesn't make a difference, personal belief defines a christian, there aren't any eternal requirements to be a christian. Your argument is stupid.
Being the best at soemthing takes qualifications other than belief.
If I say I am a platonist, can you say that I'm not? No. Platonist is a term based in belief, and so is christianity.
As a christian, haven't you been paying attention? How do define someone who follows the morals that Jesus expressed in Matthew, but who doesn't believe in god? Do you define them as a christian? NO! Why? Because chistianity is based on belief, NOT practice.
Enterprise-D,
Religion is more than belief.
It means more to you than me, I suggest you try again, or accept it.
Paramatman is beyond knowledge and ignorance, devoid of all material attributes (upadhi). In Vaishnavite texts, it is described as four-armed Lord Vishnu residing in the hearts of all beings and in every atom of matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatma
Not that it really matters, but how do you know?
I'm afraid you have to answer your own question, as you are the one who makes the assumptions. As far as I am concerned we are talking primarily about religion, as the forum is entitled. Whatever sectarian ideaology you have in your mind, has nothing to do with religion, imo.
And this is your final word on the matter?
Again, not only do think you have the monopoly of knowledge, and, knowledge on religion, you also think you can read what is in peoples hearts and minds.
There is no definition, because, ultimately, that is what it is.
That is not to say you can't form a religion where man worships himself as god. The whole point is, the original concept of religion is within the conviction of ones beliefs which may not include a supreme being, depending on the individual consciousness.
That is true, but what of religion itself. This is where I am coming from
I must say, you are not really discussing, as much as telling.
That's very easy to say. But the fact of the matter is, religion is being removed from UK society, and there is an increase in violence, largely inspired by excessive alcohol, and as a result, a good number of the population live in fear.
BG 4.7-8:
The texts explain how and why religion is manifest.
As far as I can see, women are the weaker sex, unless you can explain the contrary.
Then there is nothing more to say on the subject.
Not really no.
Which only shows how deep and diverse it is.
God is also imaginary as well, I agree. In fact I think imagination serves a great purpose, not only in imagining God, but anything and everything.
The same point applies to you also.
Obviously you don't see it as beneficial, and judging by the way you summed up, you don't want to see it as beneficial. The fact is, you have a choice, although you may not consider it one.
*sigh*
Whatever.
sorry to hear that.
Jan.
Religion is more than belief.
It means more to you than me, I suggest you try again, or accept it.
Paramatman is beyond knowledge and ignorance, devoid of all material attributes (upadhi). In Vaishnavite texts, it is described as four-armed Lord Vishnu residing in the hearts of all beings and in every atom of matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatma
Not that it really matters, but how do you know?
I'm afraid you have to answer your own question, as you are the one who makes the assumptions. As far as I am concerned we are talking primarily about religion, as the forum is entitled. Whatever sectarian ideaology you have in your mind, has nothing to do with religion, imo.
And this is your final word on the matter?
Again, not only do think you have the monopoly of knowledge, and, knowledge on religion, you also think you can read what is in peoples hearts and minds.
There is no definition, because, ultimately, that is what it is.
That is not to say you can't form a religion where man worships himself as god. The whole point is, the original concept of religion is within the conviction of ones beliefs which may not include a supreme being, depending on the individual consciousness.
That is true, but what of religion itself. This is where I am coming from
I must say, you are not really discussing, as much as telling.
That's very easy to say. But the fact of the matter is, religion is being removed from UK society, and there is an increase in violence, largely inspired by excessive alcohol, and as a result, a good number of the population live in fear.
BG 4.7-8:
The texts explain how and why religion is manifest.
As far as I can see, women are the weaker sex, unless you can explain the contrary.
Then there is nothing more to say on the subject.
Not really no.
Which only shows how deep and diverse it is.
God is also imaginary as well, I agree. In fact I think imagination serves a great purpose, not only in imagining God, but anything and everything.
The same point applies to you also.
How is worshipping a more powerful being at the threat of oblivion or eternal torture beneficial to me? Or did I just answer my own question?
Obviously you don't see it as beneficial, and judging by the way you summed up, you don't want to see it as beneficial. The fact is, you have a choice, although you may not consider it one.
*sigh*
Whatever.
sorry to hear that.
Jan.
Enterprise-D said:
your question was;
That was a poor example.
Do you have any examples of this?
But they're not "doing crap" are they? They are most likely doing very well.
I know of nobody who has been converted to religion because they sang hymns. Do you?
Were SL so concerned about his atheist 'tradition' he should have done some research on the schools practice.
'Force' suggests SL has no choice in the matter, but the fact is he does....get her out.
To which I responded.
You said,
Enterprise said:
Jan said:
My reply was absolutely appropriate, you are only interested in responses that are acceptable to your world view. It would be a complete waste of my time, to go any further.
Typical priest answers:
Then why not look into the source of these 'so-called' accepted answers, namely the bible and qu'ran? Show how you come this conclusion from the source.
Yes.
What can you say to that?
Based on that logic, niether can atheism.
Next you'll be saying theists are a drain on the economy, and they carry fatal diseases, and should be exterminated for their own good.
Your elitist undertones..... I find quite disturbing, i must say.
What does that have to do with 'religion'?
Jan.
Unfortunately, it is also a political powerhouse, 84% strong.
I didn't translate it...however, considering the huge difference in the text of a SINGLE word...does this not indicate some sort of inaccuracy to you? Maybe someone changed the text later on to hide the ignorance of the bat species?
Besides, you asked for scriptural reference and I provided it. Then you simply dismiss it. That says a lot to me about choosy beliefs...
...and so does this. We started the debate with you defending christianity, and when this does not work, you turn to hinduism. I'll have you know that hindus by and large regard christianity as insufficient at best...which you probably already figured out.
Simple. English is a recent invention. English slang is even more recent. Plus, by your own scriptural reference the only body organ that could be personified are the kidneys as these were considered to be the emotive generator (the word 'reins' are 'kidneys'):
"Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things. Let not my heart envy sinners." (Proverbs 23:16-17)
"All the churches will know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts." (Revelation 2:23)
The point is...elsewhere was considered the source point of emotions, not the heart. Therefore any hint that the word "heart" was used as we do today to personify emotions is invalid.
As soon as I brought up something which shows christianity in a weaker light you switch to hinduism...a religion that developed largely independantly of christianity. Why? I'm asking YOU because YOU do it. And you did it again in this reply. Can't you stand on the religion you began supporting (and i assume you're owned by?)
Basic psychology, and interpersonal interactions can give intuitive conclusions. You make it sound so magical Jan. Romance me, you stud
Not in modern times...I venture to guess that it's also used for power gain as opposed to worship of anything.
That's your perspective. I can say the same about you.
How do you know that? Again, have you gone to the bars yourself and seen NO theists? Are you telling us that your theist compatriots can't be theists because Jan says alcoholism and religion are mutually exclusive?
Physically, as a statistical comparison, this is true. However, discrimination because of this is morally reprehensible; and this segregation finds support almost to the roots in the major religions.
I'd love to see you fight her though.
"Deep" is exactly the word I'd choose too
Ohhkaaaay then. Someone please call a doctor!
No, I'm just telling you that you aren't making sense and showing you why. I also am telling you that the school has no right to enforce what is a personal choice on someone else's child (the topic of this thread). You're the one who insists that the child should conform or leave - despite SL's tax money. Give it a rest.
CORRECT...it is a choice, so why defend the school?
lol
Indeed
Hoo hoo, boy do I. Please note the appearance of pastors in this listing.
The Thread
And the link in the thread
Refreshing isn't it. Not only do these religious leaders, and theist folk with some measurable power discriminate wantonly and openly, they insist that the lord thy god demands worship on a regular basis.
Whoever said anything about conversion? Singing hymns is a theist procedure and therefore one of choice. A choice that can be refused.
Atheism is not a tradition. And why would he assume that the default action of a government approved institution is a flagrant disregard of his rights?
Actually, by law, as I have posted before, his choices also included TELLING the school to remove his daughter from that practice. Give up on this point, it is written in legal terms already.
I didn't come to any such conclusion. The religious authorities did. And thus many theists today are blindly worshipping an imaginary being just as a feel-good outlet, or fear...dependant on which answers they pay heed to.
I personally don't care to explore these books any more than perfunctorily because they're worth no more than your typical Lifetime movie (unless one finds an original print woohoo money! lol)
True...beliefs or lack thereof don't affect discoveries and inventions more or less...but you'll find that many modern inventors/scientists have at the very least moved away from dogmatic religions.
ACTUALLY...they are! Religious institutions are exempted from taxes!!!
However, no you guys shouldn't be exterminated, you're fun to tease in a forum. And a lot of you are cuuuuute!
Except maybe the ones listed in my example link up there...but they're a minority at this time.
Exactly - just illustrating that religion had nothing to do with inventions and discoveries.
Hmm...I think the posts between myself and Jan are filling up this thread