Let's cut through the chase: Jesus didn't exist.

[(Q)]

Also, you say there's no historical references made to Jesus, but why would there be? At the time, Jesus was just another messaih, just another teacher, with almost no importance at the time, why would historians write about him?

So, a guy who was born from a virgin, was instrumental in having mobs of people following him around, who got the attention of a Roman governor, and rose from the dead would not be considered important enough to write about?

Also, when will you uptight atheistic fools realize that all the science of today is also not true and you are living a BIG FAT LIE.

You mean the same science that brought you central heating, cars, computers, internet connection, etc.? Is everything that brought you out of a cave a big fat lie? Appreciative, theists are not.

No one's forcing you to believe in Jesus's message of peace, happiness, and goodness you fool. Why do you have a problem with people that want to follow Jesus's way?

No ones forcing you to accept fantasy as reality, but you do it anyway.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

*************
M*W: Let's get right down to it. Jesus didn't exist, and there is no proof that confirms he existed. Why is it that people continue to believe he is their dying demigod savior? When will they ever learn that there is no Jesus. No savior. No heaven. No hell. No religion? When will you people realize you are living a big fat lie?

MW, I actually need your help with this. I am trying to get someone important to me (whom is a believer) to internalize what 'God' really is. The impasse I have struggled with and can't resolve is that the dead sea scrolls (which predict in accurate detail the life and death of JC) are carbon dated to be before JC's supposed existence. As it stands I only have hypothesis on the discrepancy and no means to test it.

I think you have a silver bullet that I would like to have in my 6-shooter. I am going to ask you for a favor and the only thing I think I can offer in return is the knowledge that I might be able to straighten out a believer and take another step in getting rid of this crappy 'God' meme.

Would you be able to outline why JC didn't exist and provide the necessary information on how to provide contradictory evidence to his claimed existence? I am no history buff (I know my limitations) and will need all the expertise I can get on this one.

Thanks for the consideration,

-CC

 

[Medicine*Woman]

MW, I actually need your help with this. I am trying to get someone important to me (whom is a believer) to internalize what 'God' really is. The impasse I have struggled with and can't resolve is that the dead sea scrolls (which predict in accurate detail the life and death of JC) are carbon dated to be before JC's supposed existence. As it stands I only have hypothesis on the discrepancy and no means to test it.

I think you have a silver bullet that I would like to have in my 6-shooter. I am going to ask you for a favor and the only thing I think I can offer in return is the knowledge that I might be able to straighten out a believer and take another step in getting rid of this crappy 'God' meme.

Would you be able to outline why JC didn't exist and provide the necessary information on how to provide contradictory evidence to his claimed existence? I am no history buff (I know my limitations) and will need all the expertise I can get on this one.

Thanks for the consideration,

-CC

*************
M*W: CC, I don't know how much help I could be to show someone how to "internalize" the existence of a god. The minds of believers have been programmed so as to not accept any teaching that their church or religion has not taught them. I wish there was a magic bullet to erase their false programming.

Your comment about carbon dating the DSS before JC's time was interesting. I didn't know that, but that sheds a new light on the origin of the DSS. I'm not convinced that they were written by JC's followers (how could they be if he didn't exist?).

I feel your anguish about the difficulty you have with your believing friend. There is no way to convince him/her that you are right and he/she is wrong. It takes time. Most likely, it's taken your friend a lifetime to acquire this misinformation, so he/she won't be deprogrammed overnight. It took me more than 20 years to see the light! I tried everything I could to discount what I was relearning, but it took time. A conviction is a hard nut to crack, especially when that belief promises things it cannot deliver -- like everlasting life.

My advice to you would be to remain steadfast in your own search for the truth. Your friend believes he/she has found the truth, but time is more on your side than theirs. There is so much media coverage questioning everything about JC, that it would be really hard to miss. Subtly mentioning recent research or archeology denying JC's existence may not be as offensive as blatantly telling your friend that they are wrong. In their minds, how could they be "wrong?"

If you visit a bookstore, there are oodles of well-researched books even by Christian writers that discount such things as the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the resurrection, the trinity and the ascension. The direction Christian scholars are taking these doctrines would shock even the staunchest of believers! It takes time.

Here are some references that may help answer some of your questions:

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html

http://www.bandoli.no/whyjesus.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html

http://www.doesgodexist.org/septoct95/whowasjesus.html

Another great source of knowledge is to be found sciforums. Let me know how you progress in re-educating your friend. It's gonna take a lot of patience!

 

[VitalOne]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6770329/
http://skeptically.org/christianity/id10.html
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Culture/4685.htm
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeas...uities_forgery/
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/29/...s.ap/index.html
http://education.guardian.co.uk/museums/st...1394468,00.html
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...rges030722.html
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...uary030618.html

Once agen FAKE, BUSTED & ARRESTED :lol: B) In Jan. 2, 2005
Looks like some people will do anything to prove that their believes are real.

Who did you think founded Christianity in the first place?

St. Paul

This is about the weakest argument you could propose. You just give me sources that say some archaeologists forged stuff about Jesus...so what?

You still didn't counter any of my other arguments. Congratulations.

science doesnt claim to be truth. thats what theists commonly misunderstand. science is a problem solving technique. the solutions science has come up with for specific problems will be continuously put to the test in different situations and applied to different problems, and if the solution for one problem does not apply across the board, that doesnt discredit the worth of its original purpose. science will undoubtedly be different 100 years from now, but a sound conclusion today will not become unsound in the future because of it. you really are just lashing out because you wish you had some validation. its ok though, if you turn out to be right, i guess i'll see you in hell.

True, yet most people believe our science today as 100% true. The same people that laugh at theists for believing in finding goodness, peace, and happiness...

Well, aren't you just the breath of fresh air?

"Why do you have a problem with people that want to follow Jesus's way?"

Because, without exception, they want EVERYONE to follow jesus's way whether they want to or not. And that, my fanatical friend, is a fact. Christians do not practice tolernce. They practice pity and righteous indignation. And it is their god-given mission to convert the world. Those who won't convert are pagans or heathens and need to be eradicated. Read your bible. Deny it. I fucking dare you. You're all so enthusiastic about interpreting the scripture to fit your own sense of what's right and wrong, how about looking at it from the point of view of a non believer in the era in which it was written? And the bulk of the following 2 millenia? Not so pretty is it? Hmm?

I said Jesus's way not the Bible's way you complete fool. Jesus never encourages any type of forcing upon anyone, which you are speaking of. He never says force everyone to follow my way. Ofcourse, people like you would definitely have problems with teachings like "love your enemies", "love one another", and "give without expecting anything in return". Jesus never encourages anyone to condemn people. He tells us to become like children, similar to the East teachings of giving up attachment.

Christian organizations are nothing more than terrorist sleeper cells in barely concealed sheeps wool.

So who's the fool? We know what you are...

See my avatar? Watch your back, christian.

How do I support Christian organizations? I support the teachings of Jesus. Another foolish assertion made by a fool. I'm not Christian, but you being a complete fool would assume so. So who's the fool? YOU, verily, are the fool.

Also, you say there's no historical references made to Jesus, but why would there be? At the time, Jesus was just another messaih, just another teacher, with almost no importance at the time, why would historians write about him?

So, a guy who was born from a virgin, was instrumental in having mobs of people following him around, who got the attention of a Roman governor, and rose from the dead would not be considered important enough to write about?

Exactly. He wouldn't, namely because he just caused a very minor scene at the time. Also, I don't believe the historical Jesus had mobs of people following him (even if Biblical sources say so). Jesus was just another poor criminal, another reason for historians to ignore him. Fools like you know that historians really had no reason to mention him, yet you still try to use it as an argument to propose that Jesus was a myth.

Through your logic, If you lived at the time, and no historians mentioned you, you must with 100% certainty not have existed right?

Also, when will you uptight atheistic fools realize that all the science of today is also not true and you are living a BIG FAT LIE.

You mean the same science that brought you central heating, cars, computers, internet connection, etc.? Is everything that brought you out of a cave a big fat lie? Appreciative, theists are not.

Science does not bring us those things you fool. Science attempts to explain those things. The truth and science are separate. Science attempts to explain things, and is ever-changing, where as the true nature of things is fixed and always the same. If someone invents something, it is not by "science" it is by the inherent nature by which things work, which science attempts to explain. I am very appreciative of the nature of things.

No one's forcing you to believe in Jesus's message of peace, happiness, and goodness you fool. Why do you have a problem with people that want to follow Jesus's way?

No ones forcing you to accept fantasy as reality, but you do it anyway.

Which fantasy do I believe in? I certainly do not believe in the Bible, as it has many distortions.

Also your argument is very thin. I mean, are you proposing that there be an authoritarian society where we are forced to believe in certain things that are considered reality and forced not to believe in things that are considered fantasy? This is very similar to what your atheistic friend Stalin did.

Also, the current SCIENCE you believe in constitutes as FANTASY because it is not the 100% truth. Therefore I can conclude that you are the one who accepts fantasy as reality. No one's forcing you to, but you do it anyway. Such a fool.

 

[Mythbuster]

Everything is fool for you

Also, the current SCIENCE you believe in constitutes as FANTASY because it is not the 100% truth.

And that means religion is 100% truth ?

 

[superluminal]

Oh Eviscerated One,

I support the teachings of Jesus. Another foolish assertion made by a fool. I'm not Christian, but you being a complete fool would assume so. So who's the fool? YOU, verily, are the fool.

You support the teachings of jesus but you're not a christian. What are you then?

Oh yea verily I say unto thee, how many times can thouest use the oh so loving and jesus-like word 'fool' in one post? Try using the words "fucking hypocrite" at least ten times in your next, self reflective post. BTW, you're going to hell bub.

I said Jesus's way not the Bible's way you complete fool. Jesus never encourages any type of forcing upon anyone, which you are speaking of. He never says force everyone to follow my way. Ofcourse, people like you would definitely have problems with teachings like "love your enemies", "love one another", and "give without expecting anything in return". Jesus never encourages anyone to condemn people. He tells us to become like children, similar to the East teachings of giving up attachment.

I can't wait to compile my list of jesus sayings that are, shall we say, less than flattering.

 

[QuarkMoon]

I can't wait to compile my list of jesus sayings that are, shall we say, less than flattering.

Sayings that are most likely taken out of context because you haven't bothered to thoroughly research the Bible.

 

[superluminal]

So, Vittle One

10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus is a bigot I see.

11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus is fucking pissed and plans to whip some ass. Love thy enemies my ass!

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (13:41-42, 49-50)

13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So, let me snip a quote from my post...

Because, without exception, they want EVERYONE to follow jesus's way whether they want to or not. And that, my fanatical friend, is a fact. Christians do not practice tolernce. They practice pity and righteous indignation. And it is their god-given mission to convert the world

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

What a motherfucking, egomaniacal psychopath! You follow this (most likely made up fairy tail) asswipes teachings? You sir, are a complete shitwad.

 

[superluminal]

Sayings that are most likely taken out of context because you haven't bothered to thoroughly research the Bible.

Oh. Please put them in context for me.

And "thoroughly research"? By that you must mean "interpret to suit my own needs". As all theists do of any stripe. God is vengeful. God is loving. God is jealous. God is forgiving. God is... blah blah blah. GOd is a fable for frightened children with the side effect of causing untold suffering in the real world. Nice.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

*************
M*W: CC, I don't know how much help I could be to show someone how to "internalize" the existence of a god. The minds of believers have been programmed so as to not accept any teaching that their church or religion has not taught them. I wish there was a magic bullet to erase their false programming.

Your comment about carbon dating the DSS before JC's time was interesting. I didn't know that, but that sheds a new light on the origin of the DSS. I'm not convinced that they were written by JC's followers (how could they be if he didn't exist?).

I feel your anguish about the difficulty you have with your believing friend. There is no way to convince him/her that you are right and he/she is wrong. It takes time. Most likely, it's taken your friend a lifetime to acquire this misinformation, so he/she won't be deprogrammed overnight. It took me more than 20 years to see the light! I tried everything I could to discount what I was relearning, but it took time. A conviction is a hard nut to crack, especially when that belief promises things it cannot deliver -- like everlasting life.

My advice to you would be to remain steadfast in your own search for the truth. Your friend believes he/she has found the truth, but time is more on your side than theirs. There is so much media coverage questioning everything about JC, that it would be really hard to miss. Subtly mentioning recent research or archeology denying JC's existence may not be as offensive as blatantly telling your friend that they are wrong. In their minds, how could they be "wrong?"

If you visit a bookstore, there are oodles of well-researched books even by Christian writers that discount such things as the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the resurrection, the trinity and the ascension. The direction Christian scholars are taking these doctrines would shock even the staunchest of believers! It takes time.

Here are some references that may help answer some of your questions:

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html

http://www.bandoli.no/whyjesus.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html

http://www.doesgodexist.org/septoct95/whowasjesus.html

Another great source of knowledge is to be found sciforums. Let me know how you progress in re-educating your friend. It's gonna take a lot of patience!

Thanks MW, your right it is a hard nut to crack and contradictory evidence is key in this case. Meme supreme as wes said.

 

[QuarkMoon]

Oh. Please put them in context for me.

And "thoroughly research"? By that you must mean "interpret to suit my own needs". As all theists do of any stripe. God is vengeful. God is loving. God is jealous. God is forgiving. God is... blah blah blah. GOd is a fable for frightened children with the side effect of causing untold suffering in the real world. Nice.

Thoroughly research means research what the scripture means and what Jesus was trying to say. What anti-Christian proponents do is take the scripture literally, and at the sametime calling Christians who take it literally ignorant.

What Jesus was saying in the verses, "10:34-37 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." was that when a person accepts Christ, they will often find ridicule from family members. Jesus is telling you to stick with it, no matter how bad it gets, because eventually they will accept you for what you believe in. He is telling people not to make peace, in other words not giving into the ridicule and renouncing Christ, but to worship regardless.

Literal interpretation of the Bible is not the correct way to go about it. And in fact very few Christians take the Bible literally, or else they would all be as crazy as the evangelicals and the televangilests like Pat Robertson.

 

[qwerty mob]

Also, the current SCIENCE you believe in constitutes as FANTASY because it is not the 100% truth.

I'm guessing you don't really believe that "100% truth" is qualifiable, using any method of reasoning.

If so, would you do me the honor of quantifying the term "truth" so one could estimate the percentage of it in our discourse?



Thanks

 

[stretched]

What do you believe Vitalone? Was Jesus God? The one and only?

 

[SVRP]

Did Jesus really exist?

“If what you're looking for is proof positive that Jesus Christ lived and breathed--e.g., library card, baby pictures, etc.--you're out of luck. The big guy left no written records, and no accounts of his life were written while he was still alive. The earliest Gospels date from maybe 70 AD, 40 years after his demise.

Still, barring an actual conspiracy, 40 years is too short a time for an entirely mythical Christ to have been fabricated out of (heh-heh) whole cloth. (See below.) Certainly the non-Christians who wrote about him in the years following his putative death did not doubt he had once lived. The Roman historian Tacitus, writing in his Annals around 110 AD, mentions one "Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius." The Jewish historian Josephus remarks on the stoning of "James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." The Talmud, a collection of Jewish writings, also refers to Christ, although it says he was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panther. Doubts about the historicity of Christ did not surface until the 18th century. In short, whether or not JC was truly the Son of God, he was probably the son of somebody.”

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_275.html

 

[Qorl]

*************
M*W: History records evidence of William (W)allace, Marcus Aurelius, Mohammed, St. Jude, St. Augustine, Jean d'Arc, whether you've seen a real photo of them or not. They existed prior to the invention of the camera. As to Buddha, Confucius, and Lao Tzu, they would appear to have existed from their writings, but I don't know enough about them to argue their existence.

Just curious, have you seen a real photo of Jesus?

I don't need to.
Maybe you should expand your horizons and try to see with other peoples eyes. Even a car or any other thing have a creator. I know you don't agree with religion, I don't either. Religion for me is to be righteous and nothing else. People has to pray so God could help them. How? He could upload any thought in your brains anytime, anywhere. Don't you think technology went to fast in last 10 years. Scientific research shows that this world could never happened as it is. Everything is to fast. Don't you think there is someone much more intelligent than we are? If you will really like to know, ask loudly, and you will get a perfect answer. Not right away you have to be persistent. I know your thoughts, laughing is good for you. I also know your mission, but you don't. No heart feelings
Peace.

 

[Jan Ardena]

M*W: Jesus didn't exist, because there is NO PROOF that he did.

That does not mean he didn't exist, can't you see that?

Why should I get off peoples' backs?

Because you have no business being there.

They need to face THE TRUTH!

And you know the truth?
Does God exist?
Why?

Why do you credit the lack of proof of Jesus to only MY "opinion?"

If Jesus didn't exist, and he is a fictional character, then you are saying that this whole thing is a conspiracy. Right?
If your mind is open to conspiracies, try and understand why it would be in some peoples interest to destroy or keep hidden records of Jesus' life.
Think how conspiracies work, they are not works of art, i.e., creating a completely new character. They work by distorting the truth.

I'm not "pushing" my own opinions on anyone.

But you are, You are trying stop people from believing in God, because you don't believe He exists, and yet you have no real explanation from your dis-belief. It is therefore your opinion.

Scholars more knowledgeable than myself have known all along that Jesus never existed. Why are you so gullible?

1) What are they knowledgable in?
2) How do you know that they aren't part of the conspiracy? Or that they are not being blackmailed, brought or threatened in some way, to suppress the truth?

You accuse me of being gullible.
How come you're not gullible? What do you know that I don't?

Jan.

 

[charles cure]

True, yet most people believe our science today as 100% true. The same people that laugh at theists for believing in finding goodness, peace, and happiness...

wrong. the war between science and religion is a one-sided war. theists have resented the findings of scientific experiments for centuries based on the fact that they have often contradicted church doctrine in a way that can be backed up with abundant evidence. people dont believe that all of the conclusions of science are true, that is (for lack of a better term) "Theist Propoganda". your point of view demands that science be discredited in order to maintain your belief in the impossible, or at least in the extremely unlikely, in order to do this, you start with an assuption that "everybody" (whoever that is) believes that science is the truth 100% of the time, then you find one poorly controlled experiment, or one hoax, or one disproven conclusion, and point to it as proof of sciences ultimate fallibility. no shit. i think its become clear to most people who are educated beyond a sixth grade level that scientific analysis of any subject is a continual process, and that no particular conclusion is ever really meant to be applied universally. this "debunking of science" by theists is more of a pathetic attempt to avoid self-analysis or a distraction from their failure to adapt the ridiculous fantasy that is the religious message to a modern audience who lives in a world that is otherwise pinioned by logic and reasoning. too bad for you i guess, but seriously, take you bullshit and shove it down someone elses throat.

 

[(Q)]

Through your logic, If you lived at the time, and no historians mentioned you, you must with 100% certainty not have existed right?

Sorry, but the feats described in scriptures as to what Jesus was supposed to have done in his time would most certainly be worthy of some mention. Either that, or the entire story was greatly embellished from a non-event.

Science does not bring us those things you fool. Science attempts to explain those things.

So, those things somehow magically appeared from thin air only to be explained by science? Who's the fool?

Science attempts to explain things, and is ever-changing, where as the true nature of things is fixed and always the same. If someone invents something, it is not by "science" it is by the inherent nature by which things work, which science attempts to explain.

Too funny. And how is it one is able to invent something? Wishful thinking? Religious beliefs? How about an understanding of how things work - science.

Which fantasy do I believe in?

are you proposing that there be an authoritarian society where we are forced to believe in certain things that are considered reality and forced not to believe in things that are considered fantasy?

The authority is reality. No one need be forced, its really quite simple.

Also, the current SCIENCE you believe in constitutes as FANTASY because it is not the 100% truth.

Of what truth do you speak? Please explain.

Therefore I can conclude that you are the one who accepts fantasy as reality. No one's forcing you to, but you do it anyway. Such a fool.

So, according to you, science is fantasy and god/jesus is reality?

 

[Mythbuster]

Did Jesus really exist?

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_275.html

The Shroud of Turin was false. Worms where the cause and also paint. It was busted in 1993. Also it doesn't prove jesus anyways.

 

[SnakeLord]

I support the teachings of Jesus. Another foolish assertion made by a fool.

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

You really should learn to follow the teachings of jesus. Just a thought.