Let's cut through the chase: Jesus didn't exist.

[Woody]

*************
M*W: Ba'al means "husband" in Sumerian. Ba'al was not a god nor an idol. I believe he was husband to Ishtar or some other female 'deity' de jour. No, Woodrow, you got it wrong. The "sun-god" was the idol of the christians.

The name baal must be examined in context according to the source, because it is used many ways.

"Baal" can refer to any god and even to human officials; in some mythological texts it is used as a substitute for Hadad, a god of the sun, rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, and the lord of Heaven.

The prophets of Baal went against Elijah, as you may recall from the OT.

I Kings 18:21

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Case closed. Baal the sun god is not the God christians or Jews worship.

Getting back to the original point I made -- If Jesus did not exist, why didn't the Romans and Jews deal with it, and rid themselves of unwanted christianity?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The name baal must be examined in context according to the source, because it is used many ways.

*************
M*W: Baal (ba'al) "is a Semitic title and honorific meaning 'lord' that is used for various gods, spirits and demons particularly of the Levant.

"Baal" can refer to any god and even to human officials; in some mythological texts it is used as a substitute for Hadad, a god of the sun, rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, and the lord of Heaven. Since only priests were allowed to utter his divine name Hadad, Baal was used commonly. Nevertheless, few if any Biblical uses of "Baal" refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven, but rather refer to any number of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult images, each called baal and regarded as an "idol". Therefore, in any text using the word baal it is important first to determine just which god, spirit or demon is meant. (wikipedia)
*************
Woody: The prophets of Baal went against Elijah, as you may recall from the OT. I Kings 18:21

Case closed. Baal the sun god is not the God christians or Jews worship.
*************
M*W: Case NOT closed! Ba'al may have been another 'god' the Babylonians and Hebrews worshipped, and Ba'al may have even been a 'sun god,' but that doesn't change anything.

*************
Woody: Getting back to the original point I made -- If Jesus did not exist, why didn't the Romans and Jews deal with it, and rid themselves of unwanted christianity?

*************
M*W: It was the Romans who created 'christianity.' The Romans created an authority figure based on fear to keep its citizens in check. There was no Jesus. There was really no 'sun god.' All it was were lies that people believed. For god's sake, Woodpecker, grow up!

 

[Woody]

*************
M*W: It was the Romans who created 'christianity.' The Romans created an authority figure based on fear to keep its citizens in check. There was no Jesus. There was really no 'sun god.' All it was were lies that people believed. For god's sake, Woodpecker, grow up!

So you don't believe the roman government persecuted christians in the first century a.d.

They like needed a few christians around to entertain themselves in the roman coliseum with the lion feeding routine, or something like that. Maybe the christians volunteered to be fed to lions -- or what?

 

[Godless]

No pendejo! she knew what she meant, and knew what she was typing.

http://www.usbible.com/Gospel/jesus_son_of_god.htm

I know you won't read it Woody, but do so anyway! you'll see what she means Ok!

Godless

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The name baal must be examined in context according to the source, because it is used many ways.

*************
M*W: You should take your own advice.

The prophets of Baal went against Elijah, as you may recall from the OT.

I Kings 18:21

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Case closed. Baal the sun god is not the God christians or Jews worship.

*************
M*W: Woody, the "case" will never be "closed!" What is the point of this scripture you've quoted? It means nothing in regard to what we're discussing. Elijah himself was a sun god! Since the description of Elijah would indicate that he is a stellar sky body, the "prophets of Baal" and the "prophets of Elijah" are references to groups of stars (maybe constellations who went against each other). This scripture is not referring to human beings, only astrological beings.

http://biblia.com/jesusbible/elijah.htm

Getting back to the original point I made -- If Jesus did not exist, why didn't the Romans and Jews deal with it, and rid themselves of unwanted christianity?

*************
M*W: The Jews have dealt with it unwaveringly. The Romans, corrupt as they were, probably did put some blame on the christians (whom they created as scapegoats of the Empire). Christianity was just too, too convenient for the Romans to destroy it. The story of the christians being eaten by the lions in the colloseum is metaphorical for the Sign of Leo. The actual throwing of christians to the lions was just a threatby Nero, et al. to control Roman citizens. No lions were harmed in the process.

 

[Woody]

M*W:

The Jews have dealt with it unwaveringly. The Romans, corrupt as they were, probably did put some blame on the christians (whom they created as scapegoats of the Empire). Christianity was just too, too convenient for the Romans to destroy it. The story of the christians being eaten by the lions in the colloseum is metaphorical for the Sign of Leo. The actual throwing of christians to the lions was just a threatby Nero, et al. to control Roman citizens. No lions were harmed in the process.

The jews have dealt with it unwaveringly -- meaning what? They were charged with conspiracy to kill the christian God -- and they have surely paid a price through history.

Many jews today will say Jesus existed but he was not the christ -- rather he was a prophet for the gentiles, and they mistakenly believed him to be the christ. Their leaders are blamed with conspiracy to commit murder.Wouldn't it be easier for them to just state the simple truth -- Jesus never existed.

Couldn't they simply clear their names with the facts -- Jeuss never existed?

Can you find evidence from the first century where anyone credibly questioned the existence of Jesus and proved it false? This was before the roman government adopted it as a state religion under constantine. What do you have to say about Justin Martyr's statement regarding the persecution of christians?

No lions were harmed in the process.

What is this supposed to mean? You don't believe christians were fed to the lions for entertainment in the roman coliseum?

from the definition of a martyr

Christians in the first three centuries A.D. were crucified in the same manner as Roman political prisoners or fed to lions as a games spectacle.[citation needed] Christians who were also Roman citizens were often beheaded; this was the fate of Saint Agnes and Saint Paul.

Although at all points Christians were in violation of the law for failure to worship the gods of the state, persecution was not consistent. In the Acts of Perpetua and Felicity, the raid to capture the Christians was not made to wipe out the Christians but explicitly to capture prisoners for a spectacle in the games;

 

[geeser]

Can you find evidence from the first century where anyone credibly questioned the existence of Jesus and proved it false?

it would have been foolish in the extreme even then, as It is nonsensical to demand proof of non-existence. have you ever played chinese whispers, the jesus story was take from the saga of gilgamesh and the god mithra, and told and retold until men believed there was a messiah, the story was changed and changed again over the centurys, til it was nothing like the original fairy story it was. the story became so popular then even the emperor was hooked, and as it was a great way to control the masses, it became a religion for the state. today we have many good fairy storys, in the library's, but in those days storys were mainly told by word of mouth, thus giving more credence to the tales. the people were mainly uneducated. common sense prevails a lot more in todays world.

 

[Woody]

it would have been foolish in the extreme even then, as It is nonsensical to demand proof of non-existence. have you ever played chinese whispers, the jesus story was take from the saga of gilgamesh and the god mithra, and told and retold until men believed there was a messiah, the story was changed and changed again over the centurys, til it was nothing like the original fairy story it was. the story became so popular then even the emperor was hooked, and as it was a great way to control the masses, it became a religion for the state. today we have many good fairy storys, in the library's, but in those days storys were mainly told by word of mouth, thus giving more credence to the tales. the people were mainly uneducated. common sense prevails a lot more in todays world.

Demanding proof of non-existance -- why is this foolish in the extreme? My young daughter says there is a ghost in the closet so I walk over to the closet and show her there isn't. It's real in her mind, so I show her that it isn't real. It works -- try it some time. Even a child can understand it -- it works that well. Couldn't adults do the same with christianity -- walk over to the records, names claimed to be witnesses, and places where it supposedly took place, and show it's false superstition? It should have been so simple of a thing to do -- really, think about it. The people in Jerusalem knew what went on there. Couldn't somebody just ask, couldn't the Jewish Sanhedrin score keepers just tell the congregation there was no record of such an event? It is so simple to disprove something never happened that supposedly thousands if not millions of people supposedly witnessed publicly.

If I claimed Caesar Whazoo-zoo was the greatest emporer of Rome 2000 years after his supposed reign -- what chance would I have of prooving such a thing? How about 100 years after his supposed reign?

Do you know of any fairy tales that use real people as their basis such as Pontious Pilate the roman governor, Caiphus the high priest of the Jewish Sandirin, Harrod I the jewish king, Harod II the Jewish King, etc., etc. How was the myth mixed in with reality with no questions asked? AS for the century to century phemomena, do you have any evidence the religion called christianity evolved this way? There was no difference betwen christianity and judaeism until the messiah came. The Christians believe Jesus who came was the messiah, the jews believe Jesus was only a prophet, not the messiah, and they still believe a messiah will come.

How do you explain this -- the only difference being when the messiah comes? The explantion you provided doesn't pass the common sense test. As a nonbeliever, common sense should tell you that Jesus was just a man, not the messiah. You could claim people blew it out of proportion regarding the miracles, but claiming Jesus never existed is a greater stretch than claiming he is god.

 

[Woody]

No pendejo! she knew what she meant, and knew what she was typing.

http://www.usbible.com/Gospel/jesus_son_of_god.htm

I know you won't read it Woody, but do so anyway! you'll see what she means Ok!

Godless

From your source:

Son of God” is a pun for “sun of God.”

Oh give me a break, the original books of the bible weren't written in english. This is an english speaking pun.


From your source:

Because Christianity binds the Father and Son together, for the Father to send the Son is equivalent to saying God sent himself.

God did send himself to inhabit a human body. He never existed in this form before.

If Jesus was God, he didn’t die. If he was an ordinary man, his death meant nothing.

Wrong, he died physically in the body he chose to inhabit and his physical death was the same as ours.

Yet because of Jesus’ birth through Mary, he would have to be a demigod, i.e. half god half human. The Church calls this a mystery. That’s a copout excuse for not admitting that they don’t understand their own theology.

Wrong --- he was 100% God and 100% man -- not 50% and 50%. After Jesus was resurrected from the dead he was called the "first begotten".

By the way, your source doesn't support the Jesus Myth lunacy.

 

[Godless]

Demanding proof of non-existance -- why is this foolish in the extreme? My young daughter says there is a ghost in the closet so I walk over to the closet and show her there isn't. It's real in her mind, so I show her that it isn't real. It works -- try it some time.

Hmmm interesting;

Demanding proof of non-existance--why is this foolish in the extreme? My young doughter says there is a god in the closet so I walk over to the closet and show her there isn't. It's real in her mind, so I show her that it isn't real. It works--try it some time.


G's! Woody you should take your Own advise!

Godless

 

[Woody]

Hmmm interesting;

Demanding proof of non-existance--why is this foolish in the extreme? My young doughter says there is a god in the closet so I walk over to the closet and show her there isn't. It's real in her mind, so I show her that it isn't real. It works--try it some time.


G's! Woody you should take your Own advise!

Godless

Would you kill your daughter if she still believed god was in the closet, or would you try to help her?

Couldn't someone do the same with Jesus who was claimed to be a real person? Just go to Jerusalem and ask people if there was a crucification of a Jewish prophet called Jesus? Wouldn't that be a lot easier than gathering up christians and putting them to death? Wouldn't some non-believer love their christian brother, sister, parent, child or anyone else enough to show them it was a lie that would result in their own persecution and death? Or perhaps you would say humans weren't capable of love back then. Are they even capable now?

 

[Godless]

Would you kill your daughter if she still believed god was in the closet, or would you try to help her?

If I had a daughter, she wouldn't believe in fary tales.

A River of Blood

Lot of love there

Godless

 

[Medicine*Woman]

M*W: The jews have dealt with it unwaveringly -- meaning what? They were charged with conspiracy to kill the christian God -- and they have surely paid a price through history.

*************
M*W: Jews do not believe the Messiah has come. They do, however, believe that a messiah will come someday for the first time. They believe that Jesus may have existed as a human being, and he may have been a rabbi. It is also recorded in the Tanakh that Jesus was sired a bastard by Mary, a harlot and a hairdresser, by the Roman Centurion Julius Tiberius Abdes Panthera.

Technically, if Jesus did exist, he was not considered to be a deity until almost 400 years later. During the Council of Nicaea, they were still quibbling about whether Jesus was a god or not.

Many jews today will say Jesus existed but he was not the christ -- rather he was a prophet for the gentiles, and they mistakenly believed him to be the christ. Their leaders are blamed with conspiracy to commit murder. Wouldn't it be easier for them to just state the simple truth -- Jesus never existed. Couldn't they simply clear their names with the facts -- Jeuss never existed?

*************
M*W: Which "leaders are blamed with conspiracy to commit murder?" Is there any documented proof of this conspiracy? There are some Jews who believe Jesus never existed, and every single story in the NT is a lie. (This is what I believe). It doesn't matter one way or the other to me if Jesus existed or not. In some circles he did, in some circles he didn't. I remain steadfast in my theory of NT cosmology. If Jesus existed, he existed the same as Zeus, Mithras, and other godmen of the day. He existed the same as Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, Hansel and Gretel, Beauty and the Beast, etc..

Can you find evidence from the first century where anyone credibly questioned the existence of Jesus and proved it false?

*************
M*W: Well... no... If I had that kind of tangible proof, I wouldn't be sitting here wasting my time with you... I'd publish it for the world to see! Then I'd be sitting here counting my money. The fact is, one cannot prove nor disprove what one cannot scientifically test, just as one cannot prove nor disprove on faith alone. The burden of proof is upon the believers, like yourself. Can you find credible evidence from the first century where anyone questioned the existence of Jesus and proved it true? If you say, sure, the apostles said this or that, that's not proof. You would also need to prove they existed and, unfortunately, the bible is not an historically credible source.

This was before the roman government adopted it as a state religion under constantine. What do you have to say about Justin Martyr's statement regarding the persecution of christians?

*************
M*W: Assuming you are referring to "we desire nothing more than to suffer for our Lord Jesus Christ," in order to prove a point, you must remember that at the time of Justin's death, the early church fathers had not yet decided to make Jesus a God. This didn't occur until almost 400 AD, long after Justin Martyr was beheaded. I doubt that christianity had much significance during those times. Sure the Romans martyred them, not for being christian, but for not rendering unto Caesar what was Caesar's. The caesars believed they were the gods to be worshipped. Christians of this day were basically still pagan. They were zealots, and of course that didn't set well with the Roman Empire. Now that I look back at some ancient history, the early christians were no different in their immediate world than we are today with terrorists looming everywhere ready to pounce on our country and others'. Christians were the terrorists of their day. You either believed what they told you to believe -- or die. Just because some chose death over rationality doesn't mean they did the right or honorable thing.

In those early times, believing in Jesus was not proof that Jesus existed! Plenty of them believed in Mithras, too. Even today, believing that Jesus existed is not proof that he did, since no one has been able to provide substantial proof of his existence. We're still waiting...

 

[Woody]

M*W: Which "leaders are blamed with conspiracy to commit murder?" Is there any documented proof of this conspiracy?

Woody: Caiphus the high priest, and the entire Jewish Sanhedrin are accused of it in all four of the gospel accounts. In addition, the jewish people were leaving the synagoues to become christians. A simple statement of the facts (that there was no prophet named Jesus) would make things a lot easier for the jewish leadership wouldn't it? Instead they chose the path of calling him a false prophet -- thus admitting that he did indeed exist, and leaving themselves to blaim as conspirators for his death. If it was all a lie -- why did they set themselves up like this?

MW said:

This didn't occur until almost 400 AD, long after Justin Martyr was beheaded. I doubt that christianity had much significance during those times.

Yet it had enough influence to cost christians their lives when all other forms of paganism, superstition, and atheism were gladly accepted as explained by Justin Martyr in his first apology to the Roman Senate:

some taught atheism; and the poets who have flourished among you raise a laugh out of the uncleanness of Jupiter with his own children. And those who now adopt such instruction are not restrained by you; but, on the contrary, you bestow prizes and honours upon those who euphoniously insult the gods.

Yet christians earned the penalty of death by decree -- hardly a small matter and it was among all the roman-controlled nations of the world that this persecution was being carried out:

I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them.

The christian religion was internationally known and hated. Justin Martyr, by the way, was from Palestine -- a long way from Rome. No -- this is no local, petty matter of insignificance as you claim.

Rome did by the way, adopt the christian religion, but at the same time they polluted it with paganism. Therefore, I agree that the Jesus that many catholics believe in is the sun god, and they put Mary above Jesus. Mary is Isis, and Jesus is Horus. Later Isis was called Ishatar/Ashitar. You will see this evolution in these pictures:

From the source:

One of these two images is a famous mediaeval icon of Mary and Jesus, the other is a bronze statue of Isis nursing Horus dating from the Ptolomeic era of Egypt.

Easter and Halloween (both pagan in origin) were also incorporated into the catholic practices. I agree that the catholic church was corrupted right from the start, hence the protestant reformation.

 

[SnakeLord]

Do you know of any fairy tales that use real people as their basis

Dracula.

Not quite a "fairy", but it answers your question.

 

[Woody]

Dracula.

Not quite a "fairy", but it answers your question.

The man was a monster. Have you read his history?

From source:

Dracula's atrocities against the people of Wallachia were usually attempts to enforce his own moral code upon his country. According to the pamphlets, he appears to have been particularly concerned with female chastity. Maidens who lost their virginity, adulterous wives, and unchaste widows were all targets of Dracula's cruelty. Such women often had their sexual organs cut out or their breasts cut off. They were also often impaled through the vagina on red-hot stakes that were forced through the body until they emerged from the mouth. One report tells of the execution of an unfaithful wife. Dracula had the woman's breasts cut off, then she was skinned and impaled in a square in Târgovişte with her skin lying on a nearby table.

As expected, death by impalement was slow and painful. Victims sometimes endured for hours or days. Dracula often had the stakes arranged in various geometric patterns. The most common pattern was a ring of concentric circles in the outskirts of a city that constituted his target. The height of the spear indicated the rank of the victim. The corpses were often left decaying for months.

Thousands were often impaled at a single time. 10,000 were impaled in the Transylvanian city of Sibiu (where Dracula had once lived) in 1460. The previous year, on Saint Bartholomew's Day (in August), Dracula had 30,000 of the merchants and officials of the Transylvanian city of Braşov impaled. One of the most famous woodcuts of the period shows Dracula feasting amongst a forest of stakes and their grisly burdens outside Braşov, while a nearby executioner cuts apart other victims.

Impalement was Dracula's favourite but by no means his only method of torture. The list of tortures employed by the prince is extensive: nails in heads, cutting off of limbs, blinding, strangulation, burning, cutting off of noses and ears, mutilation of sexual organs (especially in the case of women), scalping, skinning, exposure to the elements or to animals, and boiling alive.

No one was immune to Dracula's attentions. His victims included women and children, peasants and great lords, ambassadors from foreign powers and merchants. However, the vast majority of his European victims came from the merchants and boyars of Transylvania and his own country,

The real story is worse than the fairy tale written in 1890.

 

[SnakeLord]

The man was a monster. Have you read his history?

Well, he certainly wasn't the nicest of people. However, if we are to be realistic for a moment - his kill count isn't even a billionth of the kill count of the god you worship. How comes one is called a "monster" and the other is called "all loving"?

Let's be honest, dracula didn't drown every man, woman, child and animal on the planet. Can you think of anyone that did?

 

[Woody]

Well, he certainly wasn't the nicest of people. However, if we are to be realistic for a moment - his kill count isn't even a billionth of the kill count of the god you worship. How comes one is called a "monster" and the other is called "all loving"?

Let's be honest, dracula didn't drown every man, woman, child and animal on the planet. Can you think of anyone that did?

If you want to go down that road, God also created all of them. Needless to say, he wasn't too happy with the way a lot of them were turning out. As a matter of fact you could say he was pretty "damned" mad about it.

How about the part where Dracula sits down to dinner among the writhing masses of torture victims? Whets the old appetite -- no?

Do you suppose Dracula deserves to go to hell along with all the drownings in Noah's flood?

 

[(Q)]

If you want to go down that road, God also created all of them. Needles to say, he wasn't too happy with the way some of them turned out.

Well, no ones perfect.

 

[SnakeLord]

If you want to go down that road, God also created all of them.

Since when was that a worthy excuse for murder?

Needless to say, he wasn't too happy with the way a lot of them were turning out

"God also created all of them".

1) Human nature supposedly came from man being tempted by a talking snake. Let us question for a moment..

Who put the snake in the garden? Who gave the snake the ability to talk? Who put the tree in the garden? Who didn't give the first humans the ability to discern good from evil? Who, (unless you're going to claim that a snake pulled the wool over god's eyes), with his grand masterplan decided to make and ensure that mankind would turn out just as they have?

Who then is the universes biggest twat for getting upset that his creation turned out exactly as he intended them to turn out?

2) Who's 'image' and 'likeness' are we created in? Once you answer that, you'll understand why we are as we are. Why we have anger, wrath, jealousy etc.

As a matter of fact you could say he was pretty "damned" mad about it.

Poor little goddy-boo's fucked up heh? Or did poor little goddy-boo's get done over by a talking snake. Aww bless..

How about the part where Dracula sits down to dinner among the writhing masses of torture victims? Whets the old appetite -- no?

Or how about the part where god says he will bring wasting diseases upon you, and will then send wild animals to come and eat your children...

Dracula's an upstanding gentleman in comparison.

Do you suppose Dracula deserves to go to hell along with all the drownings in Noah's flood?

All the drownings? You mean.. the 1 year old children that drowned? The pregnant mothers? The lambs and goats? You think they deserve to go to hell?

The fact of the matter is that I do not condone any murder. You seemingly do, indeed attempting to glorify the act.

It's detestable.