Kosher cell phones - when your religion makes you a cretin

[CheskiChips]

I'll admit, I was surprised it was as bad as it was. I always knew they were very inclusive in that they had very little contact with the general outside world. But I too was shocked and dismayed that it went so far as to cause terror in some who live in these communities. That the mere suspicion could result in your children being kicked from school, as one example, is a prime example of threats and coercion. Threats of violence and violent acts is another thing that I find absolutely shocking. I had always had this mental picture that they were peaceful people. That this level of extremism had not touched them. Sadly I am mistaken.

That the Rabbi's do not condemn such acts of violence also astounds me.

I mean throwing acid on girls, beating women on buses, refusing to let women on a public bus because she's wearing jeans, using threats and intimidation as well as violence.. The Government in Israel needs to look past its fear of infringing on religious freedom when it does get that violent and it infringes on people's basic rights.

All this.. it would be a sad indictment on any society, regardless of their religious inclination.

Well to clarify a few things for you to not lose as much respect. Haredi neighborhoods are not ran by the mainstream rabbinical council. A Hasidic foundation created in the 1500's created an Orthodox dichotomy that used to diverge much greater than it does commonly today.

The rabbis they follow live in dynasties which made no sense considering the pre-Hasidism laws, and these dynasties really laid the foundation for what much of Haredi would become. Nearly all of the great Rabbis in history with very very few exceptions the only notable the 'Maharal', were disagree-ers (Misnagdim) to the hassidic movement. Nearly all of them; and the great Rabbis today alive are not hasidic in the strict sense that these people are. They carry many of the customs of it, but they don't condone the behaviour of these exclusive communities.

In fact; it's gotten so bad with certain movements that the mainstream rabbinical councils have made it forbidden to pray with them. This actually only being laid down no less than 6 years ago. Which really just reinforces the almost forgotten laws laid down 500 years ago. Many of these Haredi's live in an adolescent state...but that's all I desire to say on the topic.

What I want to reinforce; this form of Haredi can only very very lightly be found in certain parts of NY as far as 'outside Israel' goes.

 

[NGM]

I'll admit, I was surprised it was as bad as it was.

You are exactly right in everything you say. No one need respond with anything but total acceptance of your opinions and thoughts as you express them.

You are the most intelligent person in the world, probably and I think all posts should be dropped with the exception of your own so that everyone could find enlightenment from your God-like words of wisdom.

 

[Bells]

You are exactly right in everything you say. No one need respond with anything but total acceptance of your opinions and thoughts as you express them.

You are the most intelligent person in the world, probably and I think all posts should be dropped with the exception of your own so that everyone could find enlightenment from your God-like words of wisdom.

Beg yours?

What? You've taken to stalking me now?

Let me give you some advice NGM. If you have a bug up your butt about something I have said on this forum, then I'd suggest you contact me directly instead of attempting to throw threads off topic with your ranting. Or, alternatively, you can take your grievances to the administrators of this site.

Your present actions are annoying and disturbing.

 

[S.A.M.]

:bugeye:

I'm sorry. But what?

So when an American soldier is accused of murdering an innocent civilian in Iraq or Afghanistan (as one example), or a soldier in Israel murders a child by shooting him/her because they threw a rock (another example) and they are either promoted, rewarded with compensation or not jailed, you argue that it is a criminal act and a bad thing.. which it is. But a person in India commits or "is responsible for" a massacre and is then thrice voted into power?
Ermm ok.

So when you protest against soldiers murdering innocent civilians, I can remind you of this post and claim that they (the soldiers) might be part of a "fatalistic society" and that it could make them "survivors as a people"? Would that be a fair enough assessment?

Its hard to explain. The logic behind "forgiving" that governer, for example, is that since there is not enough evidence to bring him in, we might as well give him another chance to see if he does better. And he has, he's abandoned his radical stance and helped turn the economy of the state around. This is a state that has seen much poverty and famine in the last 60 years and people are relieved to be able to get drinking water and food, so they can overlook the massacres as the vagaries of power. They haven't forgotten it though, they are simply giving him the opportunity to make up for it. Its the kind of thing you expect Indians to do. After all, he is "one of our own" is an entrenched mentality in the people.

American soldiers targeting civilians is entirely different. If the US ever manages to get India embroiled in their nonsense, you'll see the difference in attitude immediately. For all our much vaunted nonviolence, we can be a very violent people and if the west thinks martyrdom in the middle east is a problem, they have no idea what they are missing out on in Indians.

You think it's somehow better than what we apparently practice in "secular countries"?

Yeah, India is not a punishment oriented society. Most Indians prefer a resolution to the issue instead. Unfortunately, we are becoming "westernised" and hence have a greater and greater tendency to want to inflict retribution on people. I don't see this as a good sign. Retribution is never a good basis for society.

Its the other side of the coin of tolerance and I can understand why the Haredi are facing that same problem with their extremist elements. Its also the same reason why the Saudis tolerate their mutawwas.

 

[NGM]

Let me give you some advice NGM.

Your advice is so valuable to me. I eagerly await any advice you can provide, Oh wise one. Your insight is extremely valuable and worth more than all the treasures of the world combined. Your opinion is absolute truth. No one should ever dare to disagree with one so pure and full of wisdom. Each day, I shall eagerly await your latest declarations of all-knowing, all-wise, blessed statements of truth. I'm truly a blessed person to be guided so personally by one so wise, honest and forthcoming with knowledge.

Please, tarry no more with contact with my lowly self. Bless all of the members here with more wisdom from the fountain of omnipresent knowledge that you and only you can have. Please, wipe your feet on me. Use me to step upon in your quest to educate the masses. I consider myself blessed when allowed to read your wise and impressive statements of absolute fact.

Thank you, Oh thank you for your thoughtful and generous allowance of educating observance.

I feel so much better now that you've helped me understand how wrong I was to argue with you.

 

[Bells]

Its hard to explain. The logic behind "forgiving" that governer, for example, is that since there is not enough evidence to bring him in, we might as well give him another chance to see if he does better. And he has, he's abandoned his radical stance and helped turn the economy of the state around. This is a state that has seen much poverty and famine in the last 60 years and people are relieved to be able to get drinking water and food, so they can overlook the massacres as the vagaries of power. They haven't forgotten it though, they are simply giving him the opportunity to make up for it. Its the kind of thing you expect Indians to do. After all, he is "one of our own" is an entrenched mentality in the people.

Which could lead to a build up of resentment and hatred, which could then lead to further bloodshed, regardless of the clean water and food that poverty stricken people are given access to. The simple fact that they haven't forgotten it and won't forget it any time soon is a dangerous proposition. How can one make up for a massacre that one was responsible for? The survivors and the families of the deceased.. how can they simply look past the fact that the person responsible has now been rewarded with a plum paying job in their very society. It seems to be a dangerous proposition to me.

And as you state yourself:

American soldiers targeting civilians is entirely different. If the US ever manages to get India embroiled in their nonsense, you'll see the difference in attitude immediately. For all our much vaunted nonviolence, we can be a very violent people and if the west thinks martyrdom in the middle east is a problem, they have no idea what they are missing out on in Indians.

Your people can become very violent if pushed.

I really don't see a difference between a soldier not being charged for lack of evidence and possibly getting a promotion to a person responsible for a massacre not being charged and then becoming a Governor. Both have committed heinous acts and both have gotten away with it, with resentment and hatred festering in the background. What if a soldier accused of killing innocent civilians then returns to his scene of the crime and 'does good deeds'? Does that suddenly absolve him of any guilt for his crimes? I don't think so.

At our hearts, we want the people who have wronged us to pay. And I can assure you, if someone went on a rampage and killed members of my family, I would not rest until that individual were either jailed or dead. But then again, I am a vengeful individual. For all of my hatred of violence, I would commit acts of violence against someone who harmed or killed one of my own.

Yeah, India is not a punishment oriented society. Most Indians prefer a resolution to the issue instead. Unfortunately, we are becoming "westernised" and hence have a greater and greater tendency to want to inflict retribution on people. I don't see this as a good sign. Retribution is never a good basis for society.

Wasn't it in India that employees went on a rampage and killed their employers? Or was that in another country?

While your country many not be a punishment oriented society, people do seek their pound of flesh.. honour killings and beatings for example, are fairly prevalent in Indian society. I don't think that is a movement towards Westernisation. I think it is a movement in the opposite direction of what the West espouses.

Its the other side of the coin of tolerance and I can understand why the Haredi are facing that same problem with their extremist elements. Its also the same reason why the Saudis tolerate their mutawwas.

Fear of a revolt? The Haredi Jews have entrenched themselves in the political arena in Israel. They are pandered to. And their propensity for violence when things do not go their way can lead to unrest within the nation itself. Look what happened with the gay pride parade where their protests were extremely violent.

Do you hear a buzzing noise? Like a pesky mosquito? Ah yes..

NGM

Seriously.. Dude.. leave me alone already.

Get some help. Go and take a walk. Spend time with your family. But what you're doing? It's not healthy. I have asked you several times now to cut it out. Do you have a comprehension problem? Does it make you feel like a big man to harass and stalk people on internet forums?

Grow up.

I won't be replying to your trolling again.

 

[S.A.M.]

Which could lead to a build up of resentment and hatred, which could then lead to further bloodshed, regardless of the clean water and food that poverty stricken people are given access to. The simple fact that they haven't forgotten it and won't forget it any time soon is a dangerous proposition. How can one make up for a massacre that one was responsible for? The survivors and the families of the deceased.. how can they simply look past the fact that the person responsible has now been rewarded with a plum paying job in their very society. It seems to be a dangerous proposition to me.

Yeah, because you're not Indian. Look at how we dealt with the assassination of our Prime Minister by militants from Sri Lanka. We accepted we should not have got involved and signed a peace treaty with them. Do you think we should have invaded and occupied Sri Lanka instead?

I really don't see a difference between a soldier not being charged for lack of evidence and possibly getting a promotion to a person responsible for a massacre not being charged and then becoming a Governor. Both have committed heinous acts and both have gotten away with it, with resentment and hatred festering in the background. What if a soldier accused of killing innocent civilians then returns to his scene of the crime and 'does good deeds'? Does that suddenly absolve him of any guilt for his crimes? I don't think so.

Thats the heart of the difference between your society and mine. You see every act as a crime that is to be reckoned with, I don't. If people accept that they did wrong and amend their ways, there is no reason to keep ill will against them. Punishing them won't change the past.

At our hearts, we want the people who have wronged us to pay. And I can assure you, if someone went on a rampage and killed members of my family, I would not rest until that individual were either jailed or dead. But then again, I am a vengeful individual. For all of my hatred of violence, I would commit acts of violence against someone who harmed or killed one of my own.

If someone attacked my family, I would want to kill them too. But if there were extenuating circumstances [insanity, mass hysteria of rioting, etc] I would see no benefit to seeing them punished if they would make it up in some way that would be beneficial to me or society. The concept of "closure" and "payback" is very western.

Wasn't it in India that employees went on a rampage and killed their employers? Or was that in another country?

Thats very Indian too. Its why the sepoy was crushed so mercilessly by the British. We have no respect for authority.

While your country many not be a punishment oriented society, people do seek their pound of flesh.. honour killings and beatings for example, are fairly prevalent in Indian society. I don't think that is a movement towards Westernisation. I think it is a movement in the opposite direction of what the West espouses.

That has nothing to do with retribution, its a failing attempt to sustain the caste system, which has degraded a great extent from the original varana system.

Fear of a revolt? The Haredi Jews have entrenched themselves in the political arena in Israel. They are pandered to. And their propensity for violence when things do not go their way can lead to unrest within the nation itself. Look what happened with the gay pride parade where their protests were extremely violent.

Thats a law and order problem. Not a Haredi problem.

 

[Schizo]

Hmm...... it seems religion should burn in Hell!!!!


To polarized....


And listen I do not care if someone can build a f-ing atomic bomb out of a toilet, if you are not trying to fight religion your a pervert.

 

[phlogistician]

You could always move. Or find other people who think like you. Autonomy is socially agreed upon values.

Typical SAM, taking a word, and getting the meaning completely wrong.

The concept of 'a Haredi neighbourhood' is religious persecution. They are free to believe in whatever nonsense they want, but their rights end where another's begin, and they should be mindful of that. Their beliefs only bind themselves.

 

[S.A.M.]

They are free to believe in whatever nonsense they want, but their rights end where another's begin, and they should be mindful of that. Their beliefs only bind themselves.

Yup, totally agree.